M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

antoobrien

glineli wrote: »

How long do youthink it will take Direct Route to raise the finance? Would they have had this in place when they won the tendor?

They should have had when they submitted the tender (they didn't win remember BAM did), but that was 3 1/2 years ago so I dunno. AIB were one of the finance sources originally so who knowd.

glineli wrote: »

Being very optimistic, when do you think this could start? Any chance of during the summer?

Realistically this won't start before NX/M11. My guess is that it will start within 3 months of that NX, so I'd say the earliest will the the first week of August (assuming the NX gets started in April as the theory goes).

VR6

Going on precedent for the M11/NX I would say this will start "sometime in the next five years". That's if I am being optimistic.

Be prepared for multiple re-announcements of the project, misleading or lazily concocted items in the regional papers about the project with titles such as "Work to start on new motorway", delays, excuses and of course totally out of date and contradictory information on the actual NRA website !

KevR

antoobrien wrote: »

Yes this was always the case, but confusion was caused by people (including Leo) saying that new motorways will need to be tolled.

Just to be clear (again) there is no provision for a toll in the plans for this project. Given the fact that the project is at shovel ready stage (it has gotten full PP) it would require a redesign to add a toll at this stage.

Also, it's worth pointing out that the Limerick tunnel is tolled and the Limerick - Cork motorway will have a toll (not that it's going to be built anytime soon). I think 2 tolls between Galway and Cork is enough.

D.L.R.

This project is, again I feel, like taking a sledgehammer to a walnut, in the same vain as the M3 and M9.

Perhaps the M18 is justified as it is between two of the states cities, but making the N17 M is just reckless and careless spending of our tax dollars IMO.

A good decent STRAIGHT s2 would do the job here as in so many other places, but this road type doesn't seem to be in the NRA's vocabulary.

This state is Motorways and boreens and very little in between. Daft.ie

Sponge Bob

D.L.R. wrote: »

Perhaps the M18 is justified as it is between two of the states cities, but making the N17 M is just reckless and careless spending of our tax dollars IMO.

The N17 north of Athenry should be 2+2 and if you are going there then the N18 north of Kiltartan should be 2+2 as well.

However the PPP contract is for 30 years and it would cost a fortune were we WRONG and had to upgrade at any time during those 30 years...and I know we bought enough land for a motorway within which a 2+2 would fit.

It would not surprise me in the least were we to find out later this year that a 2+2 is what will actually be built north of Kiltartan. Sure it would only add 5 minutes to the journey from Kiltartan to Tuam sure and sure we can't ever toll it sure because sure it is not a Motorway ( or tunnel or westlink) and sure it will keep them mad railway lads quiet up around Claremorris sure and sure we saved the price of the 2+2 to Claremorris from Tuam as well sure and think of them poor girls in Ballindine and isn't that an awful story sure and sure Enda will happily rob Galway to build a dacint road in Mayo any time sure.

And sure we still have to bypass Claregalway anyway because this road won't make enough of a difference to commuter traffic no matter how we spec it.

But I would leave well enough alone south of Kiltartan.

Cash is king

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The N17 north of Athenry should be 2+2 and if you are going there then the N18 north of Kiltartan should be 2+2 as well.

However the PPP contract is for 30 years and it would cost a fortune were we WRONG and had to upgrade at any time during those 30 years...and I know we bought enough land for a motorway within which a 2+2 would fit.

It would not surprise me in the least were we to find out later this year that a 2+2 is what will actually be built north of Kiltartan. Sure it would only add 5 minutes to the journey from Kiltartan to Tuam sure and sure we can't ever toll it sure because sure it is not a Motorway ( or tunnel or westlink) and sure it will keep them mad railway lads quiet up around Claremorris sure.

And sure we still have to bypass Claregalway anyway because this road won't make enough of a difference to commuter traffic no matter how we spec it.



But I would leave well enough alone south of Kiltartan.

According to the NRA website which is out of date it states the road will be Motorway/Dualcarrigeway.

Sponge Bob

Cash is king wrote: »

According to the NRA website which is out of date it states the road will be Motorway/Dualcarrigeway.

Did I suggest widening it to full D2M wide median, why NO!! ??

Bards

D.L.R. wrote: »

This project is, again I feel, like taking a sledgehammer to a walnut, in the same vain as the M3 and M9.

Perhaps the M18 is justified as it is between two of the states cities, but making the N17 M is just reckless and careless spending of our tax dollars IMO.

A good decent STRAIGHT s2 would do the job here as in so many other places, but this road type doesn't seem to be in the NRA's vocabulary.

This state is Motorways and boreens and very little in between. Daft.ie

And the M9 links Waterford & Kilkenny to each other as well as Dublin and even the lighter trafficked section is on a par with some sections of the Dublin to Cork Motorway

yer man!

D.L.R. wrote: »

This project is, again I feel, like taking a sledgehammer to a walnut, in the same vain as the M3 and M9.

Perhaps the M18 is justified as it is between two of the states cities, but making the N17 M is just reckless and careless spending of our tax dollars IMO.

A good decent STRAIGHT s2 would do the job here as in so many other places, but this road type doesn't seem to be in the NRA's vocabulary.

This state is Motorways and boreens and very little in between. Daft.ie

Could it be something to do with an attempt to reduce sprawl by preventing development along the route and thus preventing it from carrying out it's sole purpose within 20 years? for the record this road was originally designed to be a dual carriageway and not a motorway. One of the possible routes was even going to involve simply widening of the existing N18 in parts and diverging from the current routes at urban areas. However this was deemed to not be a future-proof solution and would cause far too much disruption.

Once the GCOB is constructed (eventually), this motorway will be justified, in my opinion. Most people would use it if they know they won't be meeting kilometres of stationary traffic once they get into galway.

f2

Its been reported Bam are back in the picture to build M17

JupiterKid

Wait wait wait...Isn't the M17/M18 project to be a full motorway spec (D2M with concrete barrier)?

f2

Ya last i heard it was full motorway spec

veryangryman

f2 wrote: »

Ya last i heard it was full motorway spec

Motorway to tuam. Tuam bypass 2+2. Cattle track to colooney

D.L.R.

Bards wrote: »

And the M9 links Waterford & Kilkenny to each other as well as Dublin and even the lighter trafficked section is on a par with some sections of the Dublin to Cork Motorway

When I call Limerick and Galway "cities" I'm already using the term very loosely... to call Waterford and Kilkenny true cities, now thats getting a bit silly.

Actually I'd add the N25 Waterford bypass to that list of unneccessarily large roads thanks for reminding me.

Bards

D.L.R. wrote: »

When I call Limerick and Galway "cities" I'm already using the term very loosely... to call Waterford and Kilkenny true cities, now thats getting a bit silly.

Actually I'd add the N25 Waterford bypass to that list of unneccessarily large roads thanks for reminding me.

Waterford is a City, has a City council, Local government act says it is, only 5 cities in Republic of Ireland, Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford,

Over 100k lives within 15 km of the city limits. 50K approx within the actual small limits, Galways Limits are larger by area thus encompassing More Inhabitants.

and what metropolis do you live in?

galwayrush

Bards wrote: »

Waterford is a City, has a City council, Local government act says it is, only 5 cities in Republic of Ireland, Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford,

Over 100k lives within 15 km of the city limits. 50K approx within the actual small limits, Galways Limits are larger by area thus encompassing More Inhabitants.

and what metropolis do you live in?

The population of Waterford county and city combined was 113,795 at the last census.

Bards

galwayrush wrote: »

The population of Waterford county and city combined was 113,795 at the last census.

126,000 live within a 25 km radius, cant find the figure for 15 km at the moment

http://www.waterfordbusinessinfo.ie/InvestingInWaterford/documents/WaterfordCityEconomicProfile_000.pdf

Waterford straddles, counties Wexford, South Tipp and Kilkenny.

D.L.R.

galwayrush wrote: »

The population of Waterford county and city combined was 113,795 at the last census.

wow 100,000 thats tiny. smaller than many european and british towns which don't have any motorways near them. Settlements of this size usually only need a good A road link to serves their needs, and a good rail service, which I grant you Ireland certainly lacks. This is the model the rest of W.Europe uses. But not car-dependent Ireland.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Sponge Bob

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

And it would be fair to point out that most of this Motorway network is complete and that only 200km+ of the Motorway remains unbuilt in addition to the 900km odd that is already built.

The Gort - Tuam scheme will put a good sized dinge in that missing portion of the Motorway network of which the largest single missing section is betwen Limerick and Cork and the Gort - Tuam scheme will bring the missing Motorway sections to under 200km nationally. We need Motorways to make our Bus Network function properly and we ALSO need Motorways in order to progress towards electric propulsion in the future given how tight power storage distance and charging budgets will be for a long time to come.

We also have a huge deficit in good quality National road, particularly 2+2 sections ....but that is not for this thread.

Iwannahurl

yer man! wrote: »

Once the GCOB is constructed (eventually), this motorway will be justified, in my opinion.

Is it a bit of a gamble then, or is the Govt fully confident that the justification will be realised?

Sponge Bob

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Is it a bit of a gamble then

Enabling long distance communications transport and logistics and in a safe reliable and predictable manner, in Ireland, is no "Gamble"

Were it not for the interminable legalistic nit picking that characterises the Irish planning process we might have been able to save a few quid on this project but the cost of revisiting any aspect of it is much too high and it must therefore proceed as designed.

Far too much weight is given to the rights of the few to obstruct the Irish process and at great cost to the ordinary taxpayer and similarly far too little weight is given to the rights of the majority to travel reliably and safely using a variety of modes.

We have a right of freedom of movement within the state, which when expressed collectively, should entitle us not to bounce around on a dangerous goat track because some drive by objector wants to bluster through planning enquiry after planning enquiry and yet these people are indulged to a huge extent by the system.

The remaining sections of the 'Atlantic Corridor' outside of Donegal and including the Limerick - Waterford goat track should proceed largely as continual 2+2 designs for the same reason, perhaps with a few HQDC sections near Sligo Limerick and Waterford and of course Motorway from Limerick to Cork. The secondary network and roads like the N21 N22 and N5 are of insufficient overall import to count as Primary to my mind.

Safety and predictablily are the least we can ask for when designing PRIMARY roads for the future. We built extensive but sub optimal wide s2 for many years and had to bypass more or less all of it 30 years afterwards.

While much of this network could be expeditiously progressed by constructing 2+2 on a HQDC alignment and with future land take to HQDC widths protected on either side ( but not purchased or developed as such unless required) the fact remains that serial objectors will simply set out to derail every sensible proposal and we have no alternative for now but to proceed with this project as designed as well as overspec much of the balance.

We do not wish to revisit that situation with our quite recent but suboptimal s2 network again by building a third parallel national road network AND within 60 years, in effect.

It is incumbent upon us to do it properly this time. If proper means safely overspecced that is fine with me.

I very much look forward to having a decent road between Tuam and Galway....and none of this gambling mallarkey.

Iwannahurl

yer man! wrote: »

Once the GCOB is constructed (eventually), this motorway will be justified, in my opinion.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I very much look forward to having a decent road between Tuam and Galway....and none of this gambling mallarkey.

'The Gort to Tuam motorway will be justified when the GCOB is eventually completed.'

If that is a correct assessment, the justification for the M17/M18 depends on a road project that is itself in doubt. The ECJ decision on legal matters relating to the GCOB is still pending. Way it is.

Sponge Bob

Iwannahurl wrote: »

'The Gort to Tuam motorway will be justified.

Exactly. So lets build it quick.

Iwannahurl

And, after the 3-year-€550-million-57km-job-creation-scheme is completed, justification or lack of it will be superfluous.

Plus it will allow a lovely photo-friendly ribbon-cutting opportunity in 2016.

What's not to like?

Sponge Bob

Iwannahurl wrote: »

justification or lack of it will be superfluous.

Both will be superflous as you said, meaning you can simply and safely enjoy the drive if you have cruise control.

Iwannahurl

At nearly €10 million per kilometre, enjoyment is paramount.

I don't care what it cost, man, it smoov.

Sponge Bob

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I don't care what it cost, man, it smoov.

Try to cycle it before it opens....obviously.

Iwannahurl

Aw, I'd hate to break with tradition.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056009358

yer man!

Iwannahurl wrote: »

'The Gort to Tuam motorway will be justified when the GCOB is eventually completed.'

If that is a correct assessment, the justification for the M17/M18 depends on a road project that is itself in doubt. The ECJ decision on legal matters relating to the GCOB is still pending. Way it is.

The GCOB will go through an IROPI process if it doesn't make it through the ECJ. So it will be built, may just take longer.
The M18 -17 route is designed to take as much cars travelling from north and south Galway into the city and back again off of the current national primary roads and also the back roads where there is substantial traffic. It also has the added benefit that anyone wishing to travel along the west coast, where freight is massive can do so easily and faster than ever before. Also anyone from North or south Galway wishing to travel east will do so via this route. It will form the backbone transportation route for the west and will be future-proof. If there was serious justification for building this back in the mid-90's when the first signs of this road being planned came to light then 20 years later and not one single new stretch of road being constructed along the route then I think it is needed. Also for €500M, you're getting about 3 - 4 substantial bypasses of towns which slow everything down on the existing route, good value and the taxpayer won't even pay all of that up front being a PPP and all.