M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

AugustusMinimus

spacetweek wrote: »

Don't expect a major redesign at this stage. Roundabout it is seemingly!

Absolutely insane decision. A cloverleaf would probably costs about the same and have many times the capacity.

Poxyshamrock

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Are they still planning a 3 level stack with roundabout where the road meets the M6 or have they finally come to sense and will go with something like a cloverleaf ?

Is this the sort of stack roundabout you're on about?

AugustusMinimus

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

Is this the sort of stack roundabout you're on about?

That's exactly what they were planning anyways.

A cloverleaf would be so much simpler.

flazio

That stack seems pretty straightforward to me, you want to go straight on you go straight on, you want to go on another route you peel off, join the roundabout and peel off at your exit, the only problem I could see is possibly a queue forming at peak times, a long run off area would be able to handle that.

AugustusMinimus

flazio wrote: »

That stack seems pretty straightforward to me, you want to go straight on you go straight on, you want to go on another route you peel off, join the roundabout and peel off at your exit, the only problem I could see is possibly a queue forming at peak times, a long run off area would be able to handle that.

You honestly don't believe something like a cloverleaf or a would be more apt ? In both case, both junction would be far less complex to build (due to there only being 1 grade separation). The only extra cost would be a few more acres of land. The junction would be completely free flow without any traffic whatsoever.

Just about every other country in Europe would do this but us. Haven't the NRA / Government learned their lesson from the cost of all those junction changes on the M50 and the pending junction upgrade at the Dunkettle Interchange ? Crazy stuff.

Cloverleaf

tonc76

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

You honestly don't believe something like a cloverleaf or a would be more apt ? In both case, both junction would be far less complex to build (due to there only being 1 grade separation). The only extra cost would be a few more acres of land. The junction would be completely free flow without any traffic whatsoever.

Just about every other country in Europe would do this but us. Haven't the NRA / Government learned their lesson from the cost of all those junction changes on the M50 and the pending junction upgrade at the Dunkettle Interchange ? Crazy stuff.

Cloverleaf

I wouldn't expect AADT figures at this interchange to come anywhere near the AADT for M50 or Dunkettle interchanges. The upgrades on these were/will be carried out to remove traffic lights in order to facilitate free flow movements.

I believe there is due to be a motorway service area at the M6/M17/M18 interchange also and believe that it will be accessed from the roundabout. A cloverleaf design would not cater for this.

flazio

That layout would need to be bombarded with signs in order to tell motorists where to turn, the RAB approach would simply say, for example if approaching on the M18 heading North. Straight Ahead Tuam, J18 All Other Routes, when you peel off you'll see one sign explaining for the RAB 1st Exit for Galway, 2nd Exit Back for Tuam, 3rd Exit Dublin, 4th Exit Limerick.
Remember you still need to make the junction idiot resistant so we get as little morons reversing on Hard Shoulders, going wrong way, swervering for mergers as possible.

AugustusMinimus

The government is currently spending money on putting a sign every 500m on each side of every motorway in Ireland. I seriously doubt a few signs to indicate where to go through a Cloverleaf would make any different.

The explanation in regards to the motorway services has to be the only answer. The only one that makes sense. Would make a hell of a lot more sense to have 2 motorway service stations and do away with this ridiculous junction.

Cookiemunster

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The government is currently spending money on putting a sign every 500m on each side of every motorway in Ireland. I seriously doubt a few signs to indicate where to go through a Cloverleaf would make any different.

The explanation in regards to the motorway services has to be the only answer. The only one that makes sense. Would make a hell of a lot more sense to have 2 motorway service stations and do away with this ridiculous junction.

Wasn't the service area was removed from the scheme?

f2

I think the service area was removed personally I dont give a toss what design is used if they would just sign contracts

antoobrien

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Wasn't the service area was removed from the scheme?

It was rejected by ABP, but there has been no redesign of the proposed junction. The original discussion is on/about page 14 of the thread

f2

I was talking to a landowner near Tuam today, he has noticed yellow jackets walking part of the M17 route today, they had papers with them, looked like they were studying something. They were the first activity he had seen in years, unfortunately he didnt get to meet them, maybe tomorrow!

etchyed

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

That's exactly what they were planning anyways.

Nope, there will also be freeflow lanes outside the roundabout for the four 'left-turn' movements e.g. M6W -> M18S, so most movements through this junction will not need to go near the roundabout. Projected traffic here means that a fully grade-separated junction is just not necessary.

Leonard Hofstadter

etchyed wrote: »

Nope, there will also be freeflow lanes outside the roundabout for the four 'left-turn' movements e.g. M6W -> M18S, so most movements through this junction will not need to go near the roundabout. Projected traffic here means that a fully grade-separated junction is just not necessary.

It would still be much better though if they just did the thing properly rather than having to go back to it in a few years' time. Sadly the Irish public sector never understood the idea of delivering value for money. I do accept that having the left turns as 'free flow' does make it less bad, but it's still no good for someone heading up the M17/18 from Limerick and wants to go towards Dublin, or someone coming from Dublin who wants to go to Tuam and the west / north west of Ireland. Crucially, it's a terrible arrangement for anyone who is coming from the rural Galway, as well as Mayo, Sligo etc travelling into Galway city not having a proper free flow junction.

etchyed

captainspeed wrote: »

It would still be much better though if they just did the thing properly rather than having to go back to it in a few years' time. Sadly the Irish public sector never understood the idea of delivering value for money.

Sorry, all you're doing here is speaking in generalisations. Delivering value for money is precisely the motivation behind building this junction as it is. Extensive modelling and forecasting has been carried out and from this it has been concluded that this junction will not exceed capacity during its design life. There is a traffic report publicly available somewhere, but I can't (be bothered to) find it.

Yes, the M50 was built under capacity. We all know that, but it was a very long time ago, and the NRA has since developed extensive capability in this area. Broad sweeping statements like your just don't cut it when there's plenty of evidence that this junction has been designed with sufficient capacity and value for money firmly in mind.

spacetweek

Yea I'm with Etchyed here. It's the intersection of two rural sections of motorway. In a country with the population density of Ireland a cloverleaf just isn't needed.

serfboard

Whatever about the junction, the N/M6 from Gurrane North as far as the junction, with its grass median, has the capacity to be a 3-lane dualler, and that definitely ain't under-capacity!

JupiterKid

I loathe stacked roundabout junctions - they were/are common in the UK motorway system and have been shown to be inadequate for the traffic volumes that use them. Also, they are prohibitively costly and difficult to upgrade later on.

Yes, I'm well aware that the M6/M17/M18 junction will have far lower traffic volumes than most UK motorways but I still think that a Whirlpool or a Cloverleaf (with dedicated merge/demerge lanes) should have been the type of junction at Rathmorrissey rather than a clumsy stack roundabout.

etchyed

JupiterKid wrote: »

I loathe stacked roundabout junctions - they were/are common in the UK motorway system and have been shown to be inadequate for the traffic volumes that use them. Also, they are prohibitively costly and difficult to upgrade later on.

Yes, I'm well aware that the M6/M17/M18 junction will have far lower traffic volumes than most UK motorways but I still think that a Whirlpool or a Cloverleaf (with dedicated merge/demerge lanes) should have been the type of junction at Rathmorrissey rather than a clumsy stack roundabout.

But... you're contradicting yourself so bloody much here! If it will never have the same volumes as UK junctions that have required upgrading, what's the problem?

AugustusMinimus

etchyed wrote: »

Sorry, all you're doing here is speaking in generalisations. Delivering value for money is precisely the motivation behind building this junction as it is. Extensive modelling and forecasting has been carried out and from this it has been concluded that this junction will not exceed capacity during its design life. There is a traffic report publicly available somewhere, but I can't (be bothered to) find it.

Yes, the M50 was built under capacity. We all know that, but it was a very long time ago, and the NRA has since developed extensive capability in this area. Broad sweeping statements like your just don't cut it when there's plenty of evidence that this junction has been designed with sufficient capacity and value for money firmly in mind.

Lets compare the two junctions.

2 Grade Separated Roundabout (with sliproads)


Partial Unrolled Cloverleaf


Now, the first picture does not include the left turn slip lanes you talk about. Hence the overall land take for the first design will increase substantially.

For a start, the size of the junctions are almost the same. The Cloverleaf might take up a tiny bit more room. The cost of additional would almost be negligible in comparison to the total cost of the project. At the same time, it looks to me that the Cloverleaf would actually be cheaper to build Only 1 grade separation with a lot less need for ground works and piling.

So a junction is being built, which is potentially more expensive and has a lot less capacity. I don't give a rats about predicted traffic levels. If this was any other country in Europe, a junction of two motorways would be built as freeflow with any new build.

This junction has absolutely nothing to do with money IMO. It has all to do with the unwillingness of our road planners to go outside of the norm. Roundabouts to them seem like the norm and are the go-to variant of junction in almost all cases. Cloverleafs seem exotic, too exotic for some.

LFC Murphy

Honestly........ I'd settle for a big roundabout with lights at this stage.. Most of us just want the damn thing built

veryangryman

LFC Murphy wrote: »

Honestly........ I'd settle for a big roundabout with lights at this stage.. Most of us just want the damn thing built

Is anyone really that concerned? The main purpose of the M18 is to keep the north-south traffic moving. Yes there is a junction (and i pray to god its not traffic light controlled like the rest of Galways worsening juncitons) for turning left or right, but for me this will be great. Athlone-Limerick in 70 minutes. Athlone-Westport in hour and a half etc. The traffic levels dont justify a cloverleaf as other posters have pointed out.

f2

Tuam Gort motorway is on the map at last.. see report Tuam Herald, Cllr Tom mc Hughhas been informed contracts to be signed in Dec or early days Jan. They say a long threatening always come to an end!

KevR

I think some people are completely missing the point about the junction. The 3-level stack is quite possibly going to be more expensive than an alternative full free flow junction. On that point alone, a full free flow junction should have been chosen. Both a 3-level stack and a full free flow will meet capacity requirements so they should have gone with the option that is slightly cheaper.

I suspect that the 3-level stack might have been chosen because they wanted to attach a service station to the junction. That has since been scrapped.

It's too late to re-design. Just get the road built at long last.

AugustusMinimus

KevR wrote: »

I think some people are completely missing the point about the junction. The 3-level stack is quite possibly going to be more expensive than an alternative full free flow junction. On that point alone, a full free flow junction should have been chosen. Both a 3-level stack and a full free flow will meet capacity requirements so they should have gone with the option that is slightly cheaper.

I suspect that the 3-level stack might have been chosen because they wanted to attach a service station to the junction. That has since been scrapped.

It's too late to re-design. Just get the road built at long last.

The free flow design is almost certainly cheaper. Its an absolutely insane decision.

red bull

The question is will it go ahead in 2014, we are tired of promises

f2

News report on Eircom news " reopening Phoenix park tunnel" turning of sod on M 17 mentioned

hi5

Its supposedly next in line if the European investment bank loosen the purse strings.

http://www.dttas.ie/press-releases/2013/varadkar-welcomes-european-investment-bank-confirmation-support-luas-cross-city

The European Investment Bank agreed to provide EUR 75 million for the N11 – N7 motorway link in April 2013 and is currently examining support for the N17-N18 Gort to Tuam improvements.

sonnyblack

red bull wrote: »

The question is will it go ahead in 2014, we are tired of promises

Anyone got any contacts in Direct route? Any mention of a date for the contract signing. I'd imagine that Varadkar will be all out to try to have a big announcement this week for a bit of pre-Christmas PR.

sonnyblack

Check this out. Very fast track for Spring 2016 if they can stick to the contract. Wish they would bloody announce it

http://www.nuachtchlair.com/news/2013/12/tuam-gort-motorway-is-on-the-map-at-last/


For the first time, the M17-M18 motorway between Tuam and Gort has appeared on a road atlas. The latest edition of the Collins Ireland Road Atlas shows the road as a route under construction.
It was included in a “handy” version with last weekend’s Sunday Times.
Contracts for the motorway are due to to be signed within weeks and a visit to Tuam by high ranking officials involved with the funding is understood to herald this.
A number of personnel from the National Roads Authority (NRA) were among those who visited Tuam to carry out final inspections of the proposed route.
While in Tuam the group met with Cllr Tom McHugh and they have informed him that contracts for this project will be signed before Christmas or in the early days of January 2014. The contractors appointed will commence construction of the new motorway within weeks of the signing and it is projected that the motorway from Tuam to Gort will open in Spring 2016.
This project is a public-private partnership costing approximately €530 million. To date practically all of the land required has been purchased and paid for and all planning permissions are in place. It is understood that the construction cost element of the works is in the region of €350 million, of which €170 million is being provided by the European Investment Bank.
Cllr McHugh says that it is his belief that one member of the group visiting Tuam was a member of the European Investment Bank who obviously wanted to view the location of where this funding is being spent.
The new motorway will be 57 kilometres in length. It will be from the Milltown side of Parsons Garage, Tuam and it will link up with the existing M18 Motorway at Gort. It will have a speed limit of 120 km per hour and it is projected to reduce travelling time between Tuam and Limerick to approximately one hour and Tuam to Dublin one hour and 50 minutes.