Stuck in a poker rut and bankroll is dropping!

Robbie444

Hey guys, I started playing 50nl a few months ago and was beating it for 4BB/100 over about 50k hands before having a really horrible month on full tilt and am now down at 25nl on stars. I thought that grinding my way back to 50nl would not take long but I have been pretty much stuck at 25nl for over 2 months now and am break even over 40k hands or so.
I am completely fed up with grinding 25nl and it just seems like a means to an end at the moment. I have tried taking breaks and all that but I burn out very fast when I return. I used to play sng's b4 moving to 6max and was beating the $12 turbos over a decent sample. I found them a huge grind too though and was happy to make the move to 6max. However, now my bankroll is at just under $900 where it was at like $2300 just a few months ago. My morale is very low but I am still confident in my abilities to beat small stakes and am determined to get back to 50nl 6max and rebuild my roll. I am considering moving back to sng's but perhaps I should learn how to do correct ICM calculations first as sng's seem to be pretty much solved now days.

Aside from that maybe bonus whoring a few sites to help my roll may be worth looking in to. Anybody have any recommendations or advice?
Much appreciated!

Irish Iron

if you have alot of experience in sngs the 18 / 45 / 180 man sngs are great bankroll builders especially the 180mans.
big_iain is the right man to answer this id say

you could play the $6.50 18seaters very comfortably with $900, mixing in some $12 45s and $16 18s. i wouldnt play the $12 180s until you had maybe 150 buy ins.


edit: see below, forget everything i said and read the next 2 posts

Treehouse72

I played 50NL for 2 years and never beat it up, so I know the pain you are feeling.

First, online poker is pretty difficult these days, even at the micros. So stay humble, don't get too down on yourself and don't think you have a divine right to beat the games. Your mental approach to the game needs to be sober, even-tempered, clear-headed, tiltless, no blaming the RNG, no childishness, no headless chicken stuff. I also think you should forget about that 50k sample and winrate you mentioned. It's a small sample, it's gone now, time to move on.

Second, you have to realise that you need to concentrate on playing every single hand you are dealt better. Every single hand, every decision. No auto-pilot when playing, no TV, no internet surfing. If you want to get better, concentrate better at all times.

Third, when you are in a situation you need to practice thinking through a check list of important stiuff: your position, your opponants range, your equity, your image, their image, spotting lines, understanding the FTOP etc. Again, you need to do this for every hand, not just when it's a big pot. Do you run all these things through your head on each hand? If not, then you are not playing the game properly, you are just pressing buttons and hoping for the best.

Four, I'll bet you are playing too many hands out of position. Look at your position stats and if they aren't in a nice inverted pyramid frm UTG > BTN, then you have found a major leak. I think for TAGs something like 13% > 30%+ is standard (+/- a few points in each direction).

Five, I'll bet you're not stealing enough and not value betting enough. Play more hands for a raise from the CO and BTN, and steal from completers when you are in the BB. As for value betting, if some guy check/calls you twice and checks the river again and you have TPGK, vb that river because he has an underpair or TPNK. Value, value, value, value (and ranges, ranges, ranges). How do you beat the bad players? By betting when you have the best hand. So obvious it's easy to overlook.

Six, stop bluffing at the micros. Once in a blue moon as a special treat, that's it. (Cbetting and positional stealing excepted of course).

Seven, table select better. Don't sit down with a bunch of regs. Find the fish and flay them. Not even good midstakes grinders can sit with 5 regs and make money.

Eight, read and study more. Don't go a day without reading a chapter of a poker book, posting some hands on the strat forum, watching a vid, playing with Pokerstove, studying your opponants in HEM/PT etc. If you don't study you won't get better.

Meh, I could go on and on because I have been a mediocre grinder for so long I've come to realise you only win these days by being good and there's no shortcut to that so you just have to concentrate all the time at the table and work hard.

cooker3

Try to see why you are not enjoying it. I mean why waste your time doing something you find a grind and or derive no enjoyment from it. It doesn't sound like SnG's will help that by past experience.

Maybe just playing more sparingly. The problem with bonuswhoring is it might make you play hands/tournaments when you really don't want to but feel you have to. That can lead to bad play and you end up losing more then whatever bonus you got of it.

I think fundamentally you have to address what enjoyment you derive from poker and try to maximise that. If you can't figure it out then just quit and do some other hobby which will give you something.

dannydiamond

^^Two excellent responses from Treehouse72 and Cooker, I don't think you need any further advice imo.

Robbie444

dannydiamond wrote: »

^^Two excellent responses from Treehouse72 and Cooker, I don't think you need any further advice imo.

Indeed both excellent posts, many thanks!! While I may feel in a rut I still definitely derive enjoyment from this game and want to improve. However I recently did some travelling which included some poor countries and it definitely changed my view on making money and its relativity. Without sounding like a total tree huger or anything I just sort of realized that for me personally at the moment there is more to life than trying to make as much money as possible. Then again I am still very young so I am sure this may change. This sort of rubbed off on my poker attitude too and I am not near as motivated to become a "pro" as I was one year ago.

Seriously this time last year I was totally fixated on the idea of becoming a full time online player and my goal was to become a winning reg at the mid stakes and be able to make a good living off the game. I would still have absolutely no objections to this actually happening but I don't think I have the drive and motivation at the moment to excel at poker to this extent. I have nothing but respect for anybody who makes a living off poker and I am definitely a bit envious so don't get me wrong as I am not trying to put anybody down or anything like that. I still really love the game and basically my main goal at the moment is to just make enough money while playing part time through out the college year that will allow me to travel during the summer months. So for example, if I made 5k this year playing poker, then that would make a huge contribution toward seeing some more of the world.

So yeah I thought I should just explain my mentality at the moment with regards to poker. I probably sound completely stupid saying I want to make money, but not that much money etc but it is sort of hard to explain. Anyway I am fully aware that regardless of what stakes I want to succeed at, I will have to continuously work on improving my game at all times and I do spend considerable time reviewing HEM and posting hands on 2+2. I was getting really in to HU there for a while as I was watching Krantz's series on Deuces Cracked but then I had my down swing on FTP and havn't been rolled for 50nl HU since. I would really like to get back to focusing on HU more soon.

Anyways for now I think I will give the sng's a go. While I did mention that I found them to be a grind in the past, I think that can be said for most small stakes when you play enough. But I am definitely well capable of focusing exclusively on them for a while. On the subject, can anybody tell me what kind of ROI would be regarded decent at $6.60 and $12 9man turbos over a sample of about 500?
Thanks

mdwexford

Treehouse72 wrote: »

I played 50NL for 2 years and never beat it up, so I know the pain you are feeling.

First, online poker is pretty difficult these days, even at the micros. So stay humble, don't get too down on yourself and don't think you have a divine right to beat the games. Your mental approach to the game needs to be sober, even-tempered, clear-headed, tiltless, no blaming the RNG, no childishness, no headless chicken stuff. I also think you should forget about that 50k sample and winrate you mentioned. It's a small sample, it's gone now, time to move on.

Second, you have to realise that you need to concentrate on playing every single hand you are dealt better. Every single hand, every decision. No auto-pilot when playing, no TV, no internet surfing. If you want to get better, concentrate better at all times.

Third, when you are in a situation you need to practice thinking through a check list of important stiuff: your position, your opponants range, your equity, your image, their image, spotting lines, understanding the FTOP etc. Again, you need to do this for every hand, not just when it's a big pot. Do you run all these things through your head on each hand? If not, then you are not playing the game properly, you are just pressing buttons and hoping for the best.

Four, I'll bet you are playing too many hands out of position. Look at your position stats and if they aren't in a nice inverted pyramid frm UTG > BTN, then you have found a major leak. I think for TAGs something like 13% > 30%+ is standard (+/- a few points in each direction).

Five, I'll bet you're not stealing enough and not value betting enough. Play more hands for a raise from the CO and BTN, and steal from completers when you are in the BB. As for value betting, if some guy check/calls you twice and checks the river again and you have TPGK, vb that river because he has an underpair or TPNK. Value, value, value, value (and ranges, ranges, ranges). How do you beat the bad players? By betting when you have the best hand. So obvious it's easy to overlook.

Six, stop bluffing at the micros. Once in a blue moon as a special treat, that's it. (Cbetting and positional stealing excepted of course).

Seven, table select better. Don't sit down with a bunch of regs. Find the fish and flay them. Not even good midstakes grinders can sit with 5 regs and make money.

Eight, read and study more. Don't go a day without reading a chapter of a poker book, posting some hands on the strat forum, watching a vid, playing with Pokerstove, studying your opponants in HEM/PT etc. If you don't study you won't get better.

Meh, I could go on and on because I have been a mediocre grinder for so long I've come to realise you only win these days by being good and there's no shortcut to that so you just have to concentrate all the time at the table and work hard.

Anyone playing small stakes should take note of all this, very good advice.

Grafter

Fantastic post by Treehouse!!!

Online poker is one of the few games/sports/professions where you can get substantial subsidies/sponsorships while you learn so if you have rakeback on Full Tilt I think you'd be better back there than on Stars, although I agree that the multi table sng's on Stars are great.

Is there a reason why you've gone for the 6max rather than the 9max or 10max games? (not a loaded question, just that a lot of people move to 6 max after beating full ring and nits like me just stay at full ring)

Robbie444

Grafter wrote: »

Fantastic post by Treehouse!!!

Online poker is one of the few games/sports/professions where you can get substantial subsidies/sponsorships while you learn so if you have rakeback on Full Tilt I think you'd be better back there than on Stars, although I agree that the multi table sng's on Stars are great.

Is there a reason why you've gone for the 6max rather than the 9max or 10max games? (not a loaded question, just that a lot of people move to 6 max after beating full ring and nits like me just stay at full ring)

To be honest I find it hard enough to keep focused without getting distracted when 6 tabling 6max. I've never really tried FR but I prefer to be able to open wider ranges so 6max suits me better. HU though is what I really would like to focus on as it fascinates me the most. I think for a really good HU player, there is no other form of poker where you can exert your skills any more. Take for example ecart7 (20yr old Dutch guy) who was playing 100nl 6max this time last year and is now playing 20/40 and made over 100k last month. If you have the talent HU seems to be where you can excel the fastest.

dannydiamond

Robbie444 wrote: »

Indeed both excellent posts, many thanks!! While I may feel in a rut I still definitely derive enjoyment from this game and want to improve. However I recently did some travelling which included some poor countries and it definitely changed my view on making money and its relativity. Without sounding like a total tree huger or anything I just sort of realized that for me personally at the moment there is more to life than trying to make as much money as possible. Then again I am still very young so I am sure this may change. This sort of rubbed off on my poker attitude too and I am not near as motivated to become a "pro" as I was one year ago.

Seriously this time last year I was totally fixated on the idea of becoming a full time online player and my goal was to become a winning reg at the mid stakes and be able to make a good living off the game. I would still have absolutely no objections to this actually happening but I don't think I have the drive and motivation at the moment to excel at poker to this extent. I have nothing but respect for anybody who makes a living off poker and I am definitely a bit envious so don't get me wrong as I am not trying to put anybody down or anything like that. I still really love the game and basically my main goal at the moment is to just make enough money while playing part time through out the college year that will allow me to travel during the summer months. So for example, if I made 5k this year playing poker, then that would make a huge contribution toward seeing some more of the world.

So yeah I thought I should just explain my mentality at the moment with regards to poker. I probably sound completely stupid saying I want to make money, but not that much money etc but it is sort of hard to explain. Anyway I am fully aware that regardless of what stakes I want to succeed at, I will have to continuously work on improving my game at all times and I do spend considerable time reviewing HEM and posting hands on 2+2. I was getting really in to HU there for a while as I was watching Krantz's series on Deuces Cracked but then I had my down swing on FTP and havn't been rolled for 50nl HU since. I would really like to get back to focusing on HU more soon.

Anyways for now I think I will give the sng's a go. While I did mention that I found them to be a grind in the past, I think that can be said for most small stakes when you play enough. But I am definitely well capable of focusing exclusively on them for a while. On the subject, can anybody tell me what kind of ROI would be regarded decent at $6.60 and $12 9man turbos over a sample of about 500?
Thanks

Good luck to you.
You seem to have a firm grip on reality regarding this game and any expectations you may have.
Your mental approach is sound and gives you a good basis for success.
Alas poker is a grind,whether playing small stakes cash or stts,choose what you're best at and attack with what you have.If you don't want to grind,leave it behind you.
What ever road you choose to take,study,study,study.

ianmc38

Great post Treehouse

Grafter

Robbie444 wrote: »

To be honest I find it hard enough to keep focused without getting distracted when 6 tabling 6max. I've never really tried FR but I prefer to be able to open wider ranges so 6max suits me better. HU though is what I really would like to focus on as it fascinates me the most. I think for a really good HU player, there is no other form of poker where you can exert your skills any more. Take for example ecart7 (20yr old Dutch guy) who was playing 100nl 6max this time last year and is now playing 20/40 and made over 100k last month. If you have the talent HU seems to be where you can excel the fastest.

Problem solved (if you can take advice)

6 tables is great if you're winning, but, from what you say, you're not.

I have a good winrate on my laptop where I only play one or two tables at a time, and a crap one on my pc where I multitable.

IrishKestrel

Great post Treehouse.

I'm a newbie to 50NL Grinding - so very keen to get input from those who've been at this a while. Read your post with big interest.

How many tables do you play at a time? And do you play Full Ring, 6 Max or HU?

Thanks

TommyGunne

Take a break. If you feel you are good enough to have an OK winrate at 50NL, but can't beat 25NL, you're not playing as well as you can. Just take a decently long break from the grind and you'll come back to it refreshed and thinking more clearly. Just forget about it for a while, and you'll come back to it with a new hunger and more concentration.

jbravado

Quality post Treehouse fair dues.

MrPillowTalk

Your playing for months not winning and not enjoying it, give up imo

Why on earth do something like grind micro stakes if you dont even enjoy it, and tbh if your having difficulty beating 25nl after manths of grinding then profitable poker isnt really an option, find a better hobby i reckon.

Robbie444

MrPillowTalk wrote: »

Your playing for months not winning and not enjoying it, give up imo

Why on earth do something like grind micro stakes if you dont even enjoy it, and tbh if your having difficulty beating 25nl after manths of grinding then profitable poker isnt really an option, find a better hobby i reckon.

Giving up something that you have put a LOT of time and effort in to over the past 3 years is easier said than done. I do see your point and all and totally agree that there is no point in doing something if you no longer enjoy it. However, before my down swing a few months ago I loved playing poker and looked forward to playing sessions and putting time in to my game. I was even getting coaching for about 6 weeks and I loved spending time discussing hands on 2+2 and with my coach. The reason I am not enjoying poker as much now is because I am at lower stakes and struggling to beat them. Obviously something happened to my game along the way and it should not make sense why I could beat 50nl yet not 25nl. My confidence has definitely taking a hit. But I think most people on this forum will agree that it is hard to walk away from something that you think you have some potential in. It would be different if I had just loaded up a deposit and lost from the get go. Then all signs would be saying to quit, but I was actually doing quite well at one stage and I am trying to see if I can get back in that mode again.

Treehouse72

IrishKestrel wrote: »

Great post Treehouse.

I'm a newbie to 50NL Grinding - so very keen to get input from those who've been at this a while. Read your post with big interest.

How many tables do you play at a time? And do you play Full Ring, 6 Max or HU?

Thanks

Sorry for not replying sooner IK.

I am a very mediocre 100NL 6Maxer. I don't play anything else. I play c. 2k hands a day (55k - 60k hands a month), I play between 5 and 7 tables (sometimes I have 9 or 10 open while table selecting, but rarely for long) and I'd say my long term win rate is below 3BB/100 and if I'm honest probably closer to 2BB/100. Like I said, mediocre. But that is still decent money with RB. I have a 100BI roll.

I'd give you one piece of advice on 50NL - get away from it as soon as you possibly can. It is remarkable how many good players on 2+2 I have heard say over the years that 50NL was the one level they couldn't beat well. This was the same for me, where 50NL became like a black hole between the micros and small stakes. Below 50NL everyone is poor so you can win quite easily, and above 50NL people have more sense and so you can read them easier. But at 50NL you have a bizarre mix of both and you never really know where you stand. It almost drove me insane. Learn the game there by all means (it is a great level for this), but waiting till you beat it for, say, 4BB/100 is a waste of time. If you can steadily come out in any green number, that's enough to move up once you are rolled IMO.

Happy grinding!

tipp86

Treehouse would you mind giving me a few quick views on BR management?

Im playing 50nl

I would consider 40 bi enough to move up to 100 nl. I probably would move down levels if i went down to 20 bi at 50 nl.

super182

queer interestin posts tnx treehouse

Robbie444

Treehouse72 wrote: »

Sorry for not replying sooner IK.

I am a very mediocre 100NL 6Maxer. I don't play anything else. I play c. 2k hands a day (55k - 60k hands a month), I play between 5 and 7 tables (sometimes I have 9 or 10 open while table selecting, but rarely for long) and I'd say my long term win rate is below 3BB/100 and if I'm honest probably closer to 2BB/100. Like I said, mediocre. But that is still decent money with RB. I have a 100BI roll.

I'd give you one piece of advice on 50NL - get away from it as soon as you possibly can. It is remarkable how many good players on 2+2 I have heard say over the years that 50NL was the one level they couldn't beat well. This was the same for me, where 50NL became like a black hole between the micros and small stakes. Below 50NL everyone is poor so you can win quite easily, and above 50NL people have more sense and so you can read them easier. But at 50NL you have a bizarre mix of both and you never really know where you stand. It almost drove me insane. Learn the game there by all means (it is a great level for this), but waiting till you beat it for, say, 4BB/100 is a waste of time. If you can steadily come out in any green number, that's enough to move up once you are rolled IMO.

Happy grinding!

Have you ever thought about switching to HU. Even at 50nl HU where the rake is really high you can be very profitable as the game is so soft. HU is sort of the new 6max they say so lots of players at the low stakes that are really bad. 100nl is not supposed to be much tougher though but would require more game selection. You are certainly well rolled for it. Check out some of the graphs on 2+2 from 100nl and 50nl HU, its pretty sick.

Moneymaker

This Treehouse guy should post more. Jaysus

jpr1973

Treehouse72 wrote: »

Sorry for not replying sooner IK.

I am a very mediocre 100NL 6Maxer. I don't play anything else. I play c. 2k hands a day (55k - 60k hands a month), I play between 5 and 7 tables (sometimes I have 9 or 10 open while table selecting, but rarely for long) and I'd say my long term win rate is below 3BB/100 and if I'm honest probably closer to 2BB/100. Like I said, mediocre. But that is still decent money with RB. I have a 100BI roll.

I'd give you one piece of advice on 50NL - get away from it as soon as you possibly can. It is remarkable how many good players on 2+2 I have heard say over the years that 50NL was the one level they couldn't beat well. This was the same for me, where 50NL became like a black hole between the micros and small stakes. Below 50NL everyone is poor so you can win quite easily, and above 50NL people have more sense and so you can read them easier. But at 50NL you have a bizarre mix of both and you never really know where you stand. It almost drove me insane. Learn the game there by all means (it is a great level for this), but waiting till you beat it for, say, 4BB/100 is a waste of time. If you can steadily come out in any green number, that's enough to move up once you are rolled IMO.

Happy grinding!

Well said treehouse. I am in the exact same boat as you. I was stuck in a rut at 50NL from Jan till June, beating it for 2BB/100 whereas I was beating 20NL for 9BB (and was more profitable for me to stay playing there bottom feeding). I even got a coach who said I should be winning a lot more from looking at my HEM stats. I don’t know what was happening. I was definitely making mistakes, playing too many tables but was running bad I feel also. Anyways between rakeback and the small profit I was making I had 30 buyin's for 100nl so I decided to say **** it to 50NL and take a go at 100nl using a 4 buyin stop loss figure.
Anyways Im delighted I did, I'm running pretty well at the moment at about 9BB/100 (only over 20k or so hands) but I have also changed my attitude when I play.

I never play more than 4 tables
I use my friend finder to game select
I try and analyse all my reg's games in HEM. Time consuming but worth it.
I never play hungover or when tired - will watch vidoes, analyse HEM instead
I ensure to always have a double decision in my head before I click the buttons - so if I bet 3/4 pot I know what exactly I will do no matter what my opponent does, so Bet/Fold to raise or Bet/Push to Reraise etc. (This is easier said then done)
I look at every player on your table and figure out my game plan on how they can be exploited . EG. Tighenting up on the button and co against certain opponents- People may scoff at this, but you can only play loose on the button/co if the small and big blinds are allowing you to steal. If they only fold to steal 30% of the time and have a low fold to Cbet percentage then why the hell are you raising on the button with trash against them whens its more profitable to raise only with your good hands. When I was 8 tabling 50NL I was just playing any reasonable 2 cards on the button and not considering what my opponent would do now and on later streets. Another example is 3 betting. Why 3 bet an opponent when you are oop position when he only folds 20% of the time?
Anyway I have been playing poker for three years and took a break of a year off in between and the games yes are definitely harder but you really need to put in the work to see the benefits..

First off all OP, start playing 4 tables max, and play for as long as your concentration allows, trying to make optimal decisions based on all the information you have at hand. When concentrations starts to slip, quit straight away then rinse and repeat. You will be back at 50NL before you know it.

IrishKestrel

Treehouse72 wrote: »

Sorry for not replying sooner IK.

I am a very mediocre 100NL 6Maxer. I don't play anything else. I play c. 2k hands a day (55k - 60k hands a month), I play between 5 and 7 tables (sometimes I have 9 or 10 open while table selecting, but rarely for long) and I'd say my long term win rate is below 3BB/100 and if I'm honest probably closer to 2BB/100. Like I said, mediocre. But that is still decent money with RB. I have a 100BI roll.

I'd give you one piece of advice on 50NL - get away from it as soon as you possibly can. It is remarkable how many good players on 2+2 I have heard say over the years that 50NL was the one level they couldn't beat well. This was the same for me, where 50NL became like a black hole between the micros and small stakes. Below 50NL everyone is poor so you can win quite easily, and above 50NL people have more sense and so you can read them easier. But at 50NL you have a bizarre mix of both and you never really know where you stand. It almost drove me insane. Learn the game there by all means (it is a great level for this), but waiting till you beat it for, say, 4BB/100 is a waste of time. If you can steadily come out in any green number, that's enough to move up once you are rolled IMO.

Happy grinding!

Thanks for the feedback, Treehouse - much appreciated.

Having a good month so far on 50 NL fortunately, up to circa 6BB/100 on circa 7,000 hands. With the sign-on bonus money that I've already earned this month, I've doubled my Full Tilt bankroll since 31 August (from $550 to over $1100). First 3 days were poor as I invested in a 22" screen and moved to 6 tables and it took a while to get used to - down $50 overall). However, the past 5 days have been very strange. Full tables with TAGs so making some reasonable steals from B and CO - then suddenly a maniac shows up and tries to push me off premium hands. Enjoying the run, and seem to have settled into 6 tabling better than I expected.

Keen to take your advice on 100NL. Closed my PS account a few days ago, and the funds are now in Neteller. Thinking of adding them to my FT bankroll and moving up to 100NL. Might wait a few days. If I can get the balance up to $1500 on FT without the new deposit, might make the jump. With my Neteller balance - this would get me to a bankroll of 40BIs @ 100NL.

Still have $260 bonus Dollars to earn on FT (plus the $50 Take 2 Bonus - 8 days down, 17 to go). Fingers crossed for a good month. these bonuses just about make up for my ignorance on rakeback before signing up. Rake for the past 8 days was over $175 according to Pokertracker.

Thanks again.

IrishKestrel

IrishKestrel wrote: »

Having a good month so far on 50 NL fortunately, up to circa 6BB/100 on circa 7,000 hands. With the sign-on bonus money that I've already earned this month, I've doubled my Full Tilt bankroll since 31 August (from $550 to over $1100).

Enjoying the run, and seem to have settled into 6 tabling better than I expected.

Well that has gone and bloody jinxed things well up. F***, F***, F***!!!!!

lol

Treehouse72

IrishKestrel wrote: »

Well that has gone and bloody jinxed things well up. F***, F***, F***!!!!!

lol

Haha. Honestly, I've lost count of the number of times I've said to myself, "That's it, I'm finally starting to get this game..." only to be quickly smacked back down by a massive losing streak. I still do this - you'd think I'd have learned my lesson and would take my own advice from my first post in this thread to stay humble. It does funny things to your head this game. Start playing on adrenaline and hubris instead of equity and ranges and you're screwed.

tipp86 wrote: »

Treehouse would you mind giving me a few quick views on BR management?

Im playing 50nl

I would consider 40 bi enough to move up to 100 nl. I probably would move down levels if i went down to 20 bi at 50 nl.

I am not sure how to answer this question for a recreational player to be honest. For semi-pros/full-timers I would definitely say 100BI's. Funnily enough, not long after I came to this conclusion Miller, Flynn and Mehta's Small Stakes book came out where they recommend the exact same: 100BI's if you are relying on poker income. There are several threads at their forum on this 100BI recommendation:

http://smallstakesnolimitholdem.com/forum/?forum=general&value=bankroll%251&search=1

But for a recreational player, I really don't feel qualified to say. My biggest downswing as a recreational player was 27BI's. I think 40 is possible for a winning player. So if a gun was put to my head to pick a number, I'd say your 40 figure is pretty solid assuming you have the discipline to drop down once you hit, say, 30 BI's for the next level down.

But as I say, I am not that well qualified to pronounce on this and I wouldn't want to give advice I can't stand over. I'd only add that in general terms playing scared money, whether you are pro or recreational, sucks huge massive monkey balls. It is death to a poker player. Don't do it. Dropping down is immeasurably better than playing scared money.

tipp86

Thanks that is good advice. Im half playing semi full time ( as in if i go broke its not the end of the world). The way you have spoke probably would discourage me from moving up to early.

kayabram

im new here and have been reading through the poker post and have been thinking of starting to play a little , but dont understand alot ,... as in when you say 25nl or 100nl , what games are these?? i know its no limit ,but is it 25dollar buy in ...???

Slash/ED

Yeah it's the buy in, 25 nl means blinds are ten cent twenty five cent and the buy in is 100 times the big blind, so twenty five dollars. 50nl is a 50 dollar buy in .25 .50 blinds

Mr.Plough

Treehouse72 wrote: »

I played 50NL for 2 years and never beat it up, so I know the pain you are feeling.

First, online poker is pretty difficult these days, even at the micros. So stay humble, don't get too down on yourself and don't think you have a divine right to beat the games. Your mental approach to the game needs to be sober, even-tempered, clear-headed, tiltless, no blaming the RNG, no childishness, no headless chicken stuff. I also think you should forget about that 50k sample and winrate you mentioned. It's a small sample, it's gone now, time to move on.

Second, you have to realise that you need to concentrate on playing every single hand you are dealt better. Every single hand, every decision. No auto-pilot when playing, no TV, no internet surfing. If you want to get better, concentrate better at all times.

Third, when you are in a situation you need to practice thinking through a check list of important stiuff: your position, your opponants range, your equity, your image, their image, spotting lines, understanding the FTOP etc. Again, you need to do this for every hand, not just when it's a big pot. Do you run all these things through your head on each hand? If not, then you are not playing the game properly, you are just pressing buttons and hoping for the best.

Four, I'll bet you are playing too many hands out of position. Look at your position stats and if they aren't in a nice inverted pyramid frm UTG > BTN, then you have found a major leak. I think for TAGs something like 13% > 30%+ is standard (+/- a few points in each direction).

Five, I'll bet you're not stealing enough and not value betting enough. Play more hands for a raise from the CO and BTN, and steal from completers when you are in the BB. As for value betting, if some guy check/calls you twice and checks the river again and you have TPGK, vb that river because he has an underpair or TPNK. Value, value, value, value (and ranges, ranges, ranges). How do you beat the bad players? By betting when you have the best hand. So obvious it's easy to overlook.

Six, stop bluffing at the micros. Once in a blue moon as a special treat, that's it. (Cbetting and positional stealing excepted of course).

Seven, table select better. Don't sit down with a bunch of regs. Find the fish and flay them. Not even good midstakes grinders can sit with 5 regs and make money.

Eight, read and study more. Don't go a day without reading a chapter of a poker book, posting some hands on the strat forum, watching a vid, playing with Pokerstove, studying your opponants in HEM/PT etc. If you don't study you won't get better.

Meh, I could go on and on because I have been a mediocre grinder for so long I've come to realise you only win these days by being good and there's no shortcut to that so you just have to concentrate all the time at the table and work hard.

Good post and I agree with everything except the bolded part. I think the whole "micro players are unbluffable" stigma is really outdated. Obviously a year or two ago when microlimits were full of 40/5 droolers you wouldn't bluff and just valuebet the nizzles until you're rolled for 100nl. But If you open 6 tables of 50nl on stars/FT now there are more tagfish than anything else. The tribecca and party days are long gone.

So I think you should rephrase point 6 to: Bluff more, spew less. imo

Mr.Plough

Oh and it's been a well known fact for years that 50nl is unbeatable. Just grind 25nl until you're rolled for 100nl imo