Handguns gone for some?

Cass

From the guidelines issued by the Garda Comissioner;

Attention is also drawn to section 3D of the Firearms Act 1925 as inserted by section 30 of the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009. This section provides that no application for a firearm certificate shall be considered in respect of a short firearm other than for:

a) a device capable of discharging blank ammunition and to be used as a starting gun or blank firing gun;

b) a short firearm of a type specified in the Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) (Amendment) Order 2009 (S.I. No: 337 of 2009) and designed for use as so specified;

c) a short firearm for which the applicant for the firearm certificate held a firearm certificate on or before 19th November 2008.

NOTE: Any firearm certificate in respect of a short firearm, other than to which paragraphs (a) to (c) above relates, granted between 19th November 2008 and the date of commencement of this section and in force shall stand revoked.

Lads i'm curious. If i'm reading the guidleines correctly the Garda Comissioner has said for definite what was already known/guessed that all pistol owners with a licence after 19th November 2008 can consider any re-application for their firearm dead in the water. Since no new applications are being accepted for centrefire pistols does this not mean that in essence there are now a number of unlicenced pistols in circulation. I have read the guidelines in relation to surrendering a firearm but what i would like to know is how many of you fall into this category? What are your intentions? Do you intend to surrender it to the Gardai or seek permission to leave to a RFD and try to sell it?

I hope i have my facts straight in that the CJB already mentioned that no new licences would be issued but either i didn't read it correctly or it didn't say it as bluntly as the commissioners guidelines did?

Clarification, correction, opinions and suggestion welcome.

rrpc

ezridax wrote: »

From the guidelines issued by the Garda Comissioner;




Lads i'm curious. If i'm reading the guidleines correctly the Garda Comissioner has said for definite what was already known/guessed that all pistol owners with a licence after 19th November 2008 can consider any re-application for their firearm dead in the water. Since no new applications are being accepted for centrefire pistols does this not mean that in essence there are now a number of unlicenced pistols in circulation. I have read the guidelines in relation to surrendering a firearm but what i would like to know is how many of you fall into this category? What are your intentions? Do you intend to surrender it to the Gardai or seek permission to leave to a RFD and try to sell it?

I hope i have my facts straight in that the CJB already mentioned that no new licences would be issued but either i didn't read it correctly or it didn't say it as bluntly as the commissioners guidelines did?

Clarification, correction, opinions and suggestion welcome.

Yes it's in the CJ(MP)A 2009 and stated pretty much as bluntly as the Guidelines state.

Cass

rrpc wrote: »

Yes it's in the CJ(MP)A 2009 and stated pretty much as bluntly as the Guidelines state.

Cheers. I have a habit of reading through a column and ignoring anything that doesn't effect me directly. Read back through it at a later date to familiarise myself with the rules/guidelines. So my bad on that.

My main query is what are lads going to do. I'm sure dealers won't want to take a load of pistols in as trade ins or just to sell and lets face it there aren't that many RFDs to take them anyway. I know there was a thread on the legalities of the CJ(MP)A in realtion to pistol ownership, licence renewl etc but now that the re-applications are getting into action what are lads intending to do with their guns?

rrpc

ezridax wrote: »

Cheers. I have a habit of reading through a column and ignoring anything that doesn't effect me directly. Read back through it at a later date to familiarise myself with the rules/guidelines. So my bad on that.

My main query is what are lads going to do. I'm sure dealers won't want to take a load of pistols in as trade ins or just to sell and lets face it there aren't that many RFDs to take them anyway. I know there was a thread on the legalities of the CJ(MP)A in realtion to pistol ownership, licence renewl etc but now that the re-applications are getting into action what are lads intending to do with their guns?

I wouldn't have thought there was that many. I wouldn't have applied for anything after the 19th November for fear of this happening. Most associations that I know of were advising people not to make any purchases until the bill was published and the intent of the Minister was made clear.

As to what people are going to do, your guess is as good as mine. If RFD's won't trade them for something else, there's always selling into NI or Europe.

rowa

the dealers in the free /non corrupt part of ireland eg ulster are well aware of the situation down here concerning pistols and are offering shockingly bad money for pistols , i know this for a fact , its supply and demand i suppose .

if they do refuse to grant a pre-november 2008 licence they could be liable to pay compensation surely or have they worked in a loophole ?
if it wasn't for the current state of the economy (fianna fail caused) they'd have taken up the pistols and payed compensation .

rrpc

They can dispose of your firearm for you but there's no requirement to get the best price.

So you're best advised to dispose of it yourself. As I said earlier, I can't see there being too many who applied after the 19th November, it would have been very ill-advised considering what the Minister had said.

Cass

This thread may seem pointless, but i just wanted to get a sense of where people stood. I have been speaking to lads over the last few weeks and mostly over the weekend and some applied for the licence prior to the 19th November deadline but did not recieve them till after this date. They can surrender them to the Gardai but as rrpc said they do not have to get market value meaning a €2500 pistol could be sold for €400 - €500. England had a compensation fund (don't know how good it was) but there is no such fund set up here. Surrender and get whatever you can for it, give to RFD and if they take it and sell it you could be looking at what rowa said piss poor prices from dealers or other sources knowing that you are in a bind and will take almost any offer to recoup some of your costs. Or last but not least surrender and have it destroyed/deactivated. Expensive paperweight.

As i've said some may view this thread as pointless and a waste of time but i know a few lads caught in this predicament and i wanted to see if others were also caught. Anyway i'm not trying to prolong a thread that in reality has a short life but thanks for the replies.

deerhunter1

rrpc wrote: »

I wouldn't have thought there was that many. I wouldn't have applied for anything after the 19th November for fear of this happening. Most associations that I know of were advising people not to make any purchases until the bill was published and the intent of the Minister was made clear.

As to what people are going to do, your guess is as good as mine. If RFD's won't trade them for something else, there's always selling into NI or Europe.

anyone applying after 19Nov would have only received serial number,no weapon would have been imported untill DOJ had sanctioned and issued an article 7 ? which they will not do now,anyone who was issued a permit after 19Nov by their super will have it revoked by the DOJ.

rrpc

deerhunter1 wrote: »

anyone applying after 19Nov would have only received serial number,no weapon would have been imported untill DOJ had sanctioned and issued an article 7 ? which they will not do now,anyone who was issued a permit after 19Nov by their super will have it revoked by the DOJ.

What about second hand guns? Plenty of those around as far as I can tell.

deerhunter1

rrpc wrote: »

What about second hand guns? Plenty of those around as far as I can tell.

Does not matter how many you have once licenced prior to 19 Nov

rowa

i thought the state was legally obliged to compensate you for the loss of your property under the constitution ? i have a centrefire pistol that is now restricted , if the gardai refuse to renew my licence surely i have some recourse as i am being denied the right to hold my own property and should be compensated in full the price i paid for it only a year ago by the doj / state ?

Cass

rrpc wrote: »

What about second hand guns? Plenty of those around as far as I can tell.

Deerhunter, rrpc is refering to guns already bought and traded therefore in the country and in no need of an import licence.

i thought the state was legally obliged to compensate you for the loss of your property under the constitution

Apparently not ;

Section 36 of the Criminal Justice Act, 2006has amended section 6 of the 1925 Act and legislates for a person who is in possession of a firearm or ammunition having had the certificate for that firearm or ammunition revoked. In this situation the following procedures shall apply:

(1) that person shall forthwith deliver the firearm or ammunition to the superintendent of the district where the person resides,

(2) the superintendent shall inform the person in writing of his/her right to dispose of the firearm in any manner not contrary to law.

(3) if, within 3 months, arrangements have not been carried out for its disposal by the person, the superintendent will inform the person in writing that the firearm will be sold or destroyed within a further period of 1 month. The proceeds will be paid to the person.

(4) the superintendent may cause the firearm to be destroyed if the firearm has been offered for sale and not sold, or if of the view that it is unlikely to be sold and shall inform the person in writing of such destruction.

Brings me to another point. Those after 19th November have been told that their licence is gone, but those before this date seem to think that its just a matter of applying for the new licence and getting it. Not so. You must provide "Good Reason" for wanting this firearm, club attendance records, usage, ammo usage etc will all factor. So if PaddyA goes to the club every week, uses 200 rounds per visit, and enters competitions on a regular basis he has a better chance than PaddyB who goes once every 4 months and never enters a competition and uses maybe 500 rounds per year.

deerhunter1

rowa wrote: »

i thought the state was legally obliged to compensate you for the loss of your property under the constitution ? i have a centrefire pistol that is now restricted , if the gardai refuse to renew my licence surely i have some recourse as i am being denied the right to hold my own property and should be compensated in full the price i paid for it only a year ago by the doj / state ?

No there not

Grizzly 45

Think the High or Supreme court will have to decide that one folks..Not us or the Gardai.As it would proably become case law,and vitally important to other rights of the citzenry of Ireland regarding private property..
If they dont have to compensate you for your firearms,what is to say what is next that wont require compensation????:(

rowa

that section 36 is basically legalized theft and just goes to show what happens when laws are put through the dail with little opposition ,

(4) the superintendent may cause the firearm to be destroyed if the firearm has been offered for sale and not sold .

after how long precisely ? 1 week , 1 month , 1 year ?

(4) or of the view that it is unlikely to be sold and shall inform the person in writing of the destruction .

so the superintendent is now an expert in the firearms market and can say that maybe in these recessionary times a high end shotgun for instance must be destroyed because it is unlikely to be sold .

i was told there were clauses in the constitution which safeguarded the individuals right to private property and to be properly compensated for its loss , eg. land cpo'ed , this must not apply to firearms , this country gets more like zimbabwe everyday. :mad:

rrpc

rowa wrote: »

that section 36 is basically legalized theft and just goes to show what happens when laws are put through the dail with little opposition ,

(4) the superintendent may cause the firearm to be destroyed if the firearm has been offered for sale and not sold .

after how long precisely ? 1 week , 1 month , 1 year ?

(4) or of the view that it is unlikely to be sold and shall inform the person in writing of the destruction .

so the superintendent is now an expert in the firearms market and can say that maybe in these recessionary times a high end shotgun for instance must be destroyed because it is unlikely to be sold .

i was told there were clauses in the constitution which safeguarded the individuals right to private property and to be properly compensated for its loss , eg. land cpo'ed , this must not apply to firearms , this country gets more like zimbabwe everyday. :mad:

That section has been in the firearms act in one form or another since 1925 and in its current form since 1964. So we've been like Zimbabwe since before Zimbabwe was Zimbabwe

This 'right to property' in relation to firearms has been discussed here before at great length. There are certain rights enshrined in the constitution, but those rights are diluted by the right of the state to legislate in certain matters.

The difference with firearms is that you are not entitled 'as a right' to own one, the same as you are entitled to own other property. That's where the comparison with land or other property falls down and where there's no obligation on the state to compensate you should you lose your firearms licence. In addition, they are not taking the property off you, but the right to own it. You are still free to sell that property at the best price possible on the open market.

Cass

rrpc wrote: »

......there's no obligation on the state to compensate you should you lose your firearms licence. In addition, they are not taking the property off you, but the right to own it. You are still free to sell that property at the best price possible on the open market.

And there in lies the problem. They are circumventing compensation payouts by refusing to licence the firearm, but at the same time putting a time limit on how long you have to sell/dispose of it. Combined with the fact that they, by the very nature of the new legislation, have significantly reduced the market which you are attempting to sell to. So now you can't get a licence so can't keep the gun. You can sell the gun, but only to a largely reduced market (only the lads that keep their licences and guns) most of whom have a gun and will not get a licence for a second one. Dealer will not take one handgun for another as a trade (irrespective of value) so handgun owner will most likely keep what he/she has. Only option is to sell abroad and we all now how well that will work or surrender for destruction. Between a rock and a hard place doesn't seem to cover it.

rrpc

ezridax wrote: »

And there in lies the problem. They are circumventing compensation payouts by refusing to licence the firearm, but at the same time putting a time limit on how long you have to sell/dispose of it. Combined with the fact that they, by the very nature of the new legislation, have significantly reduced the market which you are attempting to sell to. So now you can't get a licence so can't keep the gun. You can sell the gun, but only to a largely reduced market (only the lads that keep their licences and guns) most of whom have a gun and will not get a licence for a second one. Dealer will not take one handgun for another as a trade (irrespective of value) so handgun owner will most likely keep what he/she has. Only option is to sell abroad and we all now how well that will work or surrender for destruction. Between a rock and a hard place doesn't seem to cover it.

About right except the time limit. Providing you can get a dealer to store it for you at a reasonable cost, there's no time limit as to when you have to sell.

Selling abroad is not as big a deal as people seem to think. After all, lots of people got into buying from abroad over the last few years, so it's not as though we don't have a track record

Grizzly 45

Very true RR.
Trouble is I think,people are expecting "Celtic Tiger" selling prices on guns that were bought for stupid money here in the CT boom..No one on the European /World market is going to pay you 900 euros for a used ,say Glock17,when the market value is appx 450/500 euros,and there is plenty of them out there. Go to Egun and type in your gun and that will give you a realistic price of what it is worth,or frankonia.de used section.

As for the property arguement..Put it like this...If it was a clear cut as this good post by G17..Why didnt Aherne&Co just ban them all outright and under the law they would have been entitled to do so.So why this grandfather clause??Obviously,there is somthing there that isnt 100% clear in law.

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

As for the property arguement..Put it like this...If it was a clear cut as this good post by G17..Why didnt Aherne&Co just ban them all outright and under the law they would have been entitled to do so.So why this grandfather clause??Obviously,there is somthing there that isnt 100% clear in law.

I think it's as simple as the Minister said XXXX and XXXX became law. Go back and read his statement of 19th November and you'd be hard pressed to find anything that was left out in the CJ(MP)A.

Cass

rrpc wrote: »

About right except the time limit. Providing you can get a dealer to store it for you at a reasonable cost, there's no time limit as to when you have to sell.

Selling abroad is not as big a deal as people seem to think. After all, lots of people got into buying from abroad over the last few years, so it's not as though we don't have a track record

I'll amend my previous statement in that its not a big hassle to sell abroad but what i was trying to get across (poorly) and the point Grizzly made was in the Celtic Boom we bought guns at over than normal prices. We now try to sell abroad where our second hand guns (to us anyway) are more valuble than their new ones. So either take a reduced price or don't sell it.

Section 36 of the Criminal Justice Act, 2006has amended section 6 of the 1925 Act and legislates for a person who is in possession of a firearm or ammunition having had the certificate for that firearm or ammunition revoked. In this situation the following procedures shall apply:

(1) that person shall forthwith deliver the firearm or ammunition to the superintendent of the district where the person resides,

(2) the superintendent shall inform the person in writing of his/her right to dispose of the firearm in any manner not contrary to law.

(3) if, within 3 months, arrangements have not been carried out for its disposal by the person, the superintendent will inform the person in writing that the firearm will be sold or destroyed within a further period of 1 month. The proceeds will be paid to the person.

(4) the superintendent may cause the firearm to be destroyed if the firearm has been offered for sale and not sold, or if of the view that it is unlikely to be sold and shall inform the person in writing of such destruction.

You were saying there is no time limit but as i read it, the firearm that the person has not got a renewal for must surrrender said firearm "forthwith". That to me would suggest asap if not sooner. The firearm will be stored/kept by An Gardai until such a time as it sells. If after 3 months it doesn't sell or the Superintendent believes it will not sell he will contact the owner with a view to having the firearm destroyed/disposed of and the owner of the firearm has a further 1 month to make a decision.

I don't see anywhere, were it says the owner can surrender the firearm to a dealer to store or sell it. If that were tha case dealers could make a fortune on storage alone, but most dealers i've spoken to (4 of them) have told me they are not taking any guns in for storage/sale for the next month or two as they are overstocked with guns for sale and even sold guns that cannot be collected till the owner has his/her new licence.

rrpc

ezridax wrote: »

I don't see anywhere, were it says the owner can surrender the firearm to a dealer to store or sell it. If that were tha case dealers could make a fortune on storage alone, but most dealers i've spoken to (4 of them) have told me they are not taking any guns in for storage/sale for the next month or two as they are overstocked with guns for sale and even sold guns that cannot be collected till the owner has his/her new licence.

It doesn't all have to be in the Firearms Acts you know

A firearms dealer may possess any firearm (providing he has the correct level of delership of course) for sale. His dealer's licence is the equivalent of a firearms certificate.

As you rightly point out, it's up to the dealer, but you can surrender to a dealer instead of the Gardai if you want.

Cass

rrpc wrote: »

.....As you rightly point out, it's up to the dealer, but you can surrender to a dealer instead of the Gardai if you want.

Didn't know that. By the way its worded it would seem your only option is to surrender it to Gardai. Thanks for clearing it up.

rrpc

ezridax wrote: »

Didn't know that. By the way its worded it would seem your only option is to surrender it to Gardai. Thanks for clearing it up.

Well since dealers usually charge you for the privilege (nothing wrong with that) they can't put stuff like that in legislation and effectively create a cartel or monopoly.

Cass

rrpc wrote: »

...they can't put stuff like that in legislation and effectively create a cartel or monopoly.

Not directed at you, but with the few restricted firearms dealers in the country and the extra cost and security needed to become one it has in effect created a monopoly as you now have to go to those dealers for any restricted firearm.
Not to mention the retrospective legislation (don't care what way its put thats what the CJ(MP)A is) used to impose the partial ban on handgun ownership, and the ban on personal imports that had to be suspened as it contravened EU directives regarding firearms/imports.

I can see lawsuit after lawsuit over the next few years on discrimination grounds. Anyway i'm no legal eagle so i try not to pip in on something that i'm not 100% sure on but this partial ban has me annoyed, and worst part is i'm licenced prior to 19th November so i'm part of the "secure" licence holders. I'm annoyed for the other lads, be they numerous or few that will suffer, because if they loose their licences then the sport as a whole will loose out.

rowa

rrpc wrote: »

Well since dealers usually charge you for the privilege (nothing wrong with that) they can't put stuff like that in legislation and effectively create a cartel or monopoly.

to the best of my knowledge any firearms handed in to a garda station in the greater dublin area are transfered to a dealer anyway , and are disposed of or destroyed by them too .

Grizzly 45

rrpc wrote: »

I think it's as simple as the Minister said XXXX and XXXX became law. Go back and read his statement of 19th November and you'd be hard pressed to find anything that was left out in the CJ(MP)A.

So why then didnt he just say on that date,"lads they will be all pulled in,simple as,no ifs or buts"??Was in his power to do so..IF the law was this clear regarding compensation and the ,or not thereof??
Why create this grandfather clause and leave the Govt open to discrimination lawsuites??Either you ban somthing totally or not.

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So why then didnt he just say on that date,"lads they will be all pulled in,simple as,no ifs or buts"??Was in his power to do so..IF the law was this clear regarding compensation and the ,or not thereof??
Why create this grandfather clause and leave the Govt open to discrimination lawsuites??Either you ban somthing totally or not.

You're assuming there that there was actually a problem outside the Minister's head and the newspaper headlines.

The issue of compensation was highly unlikely to have entered his mind seeing as you were talking about a figure of less than 1800 units out there.

And why should it? The act has had that little section in it for the last 80 years making sure no-one was entitled to any compensation should their licence be revoked.

But maybe he did intend to ban everything and was prevailed upon not to.

rowa

rrpc wrote: »

You're assuming there that there was actually a problem outside the Minister's head and the newspaper headlines.

The issue of compensation was highly unlikely to have entered his mind seeing as you were talking about a figure of less than 1800 units out there.

And why should it? The act has had that little section in it for the last 80 years making sure no-one was entitled to any compensation should their licence be revoked.

But maybe he did intend to ban everything and was prevailed upon not to.

i don't think anyone could prevail on ahern to do anything , he was dead against the pistols from the word go ,unless biffo called enough ,

as for compensation ,with fianna fail and the greens getting a slating daily in the media can you imagine the headlines if he did fork out to compensate us or the loss of our equipment , he'd have been ripped to shreds , " minister spends millions on firearms while hospitals/schools etc close"

Grizzly 45

It's possible RR .But when have you ever heard of an Irish politican on an ego and powertrip listening to any advice from his advisors???:rolleyes:
Again despite this law being there for 80 years,has it ever been challanged???The World has changed alot in 80 years,and we have become,rightly so, more questioning of those who rule us.
It doesnt matter if it is 180,000, 18,000,1,800 ,180 or 18 units.If you are being denied the use and or acess of your property by a Govt ,you are apprently entitled to compensation under EU law.Dont know the act or paragraph,but this came from a lawyer on the continent who deals alot with EU law.
Prevailed on not to???I WILL take that story with a pinch of salt,depending who is telling it if you dont mind...;)

Grizzly 45

as for compensation ,with fianna fail and the greens getting a slating daily in the media can you imagine the headlines if he did fork out to compensate us or the loss of our equipment , he'd have been ripped to shreds , " minister spends millions on firearms while hospitals/schools etc close"

[/QUOTE]
OTOH,that could have been turned around too and used as a "ligitmate use of taxpayers money to make society safer by ridding the last vestiges of guns off the streets,blah,blah,blah." Ala Blair and "toe fetish" Mellor post Dunblane.:rolleyes: