Handguns gone for some?

rowa

OTOH,that could have been turned around too and used as a "ligitmate use of taxpayers money to make society safer by ridding the last vestiges of guns off the streets,blah,blah,blah." Ala Blair and "toe fetish" Mellor post Dunblane.:rolleyes:[/quote]

nah the media have the knives out for biffo , ff and the D.4 tree hugger brigade . britain had the massacres to justify the ban , we've (thank god) had very little to justify a major bill for compensation .

Grizzly 45

Yeah...Now it would be [proably] totally stupid to do so..
But watch this space for more stupidity in Govt by Dec.Hopefully not in the firearms dept:rolleyes:.
Back last year,even post Nov 18th.he could have proably got away with it.Sure they way they were carrying on about it.You would swear there was a massacre.Obviously a bunch of scummers shot in Dublinover the Summer of 08 dont equal a dead Limerick rugby player for binging in "tough new gun laws":rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
If that sounds very cynical,consider what Aherne did as the ultimate in cynicism and political opportunism.Use a criminal act comitted with an illegally owned firearm ,and hopefully the emotive fallout,which didnt happen..to hang a minority of law abiding people..How cynical and hyprocritical can you get???:mad:

chem

Who said there is not a complete ban on pistols? If everyone has to apply again for them, maybe noone will get there licence renewed!!!!

BryanL

rowa wrote: »

the dealers in the free /non corrupt part of ireland eg ulster are well aware of the situation down here concerning pistols and are offering shockingly bad money for pistols , i know this for a fact , its supply and demand i suppose .

Are you still allowed a pistol in Donegal then?;)
Bryan

Cass

chem wrote: »

Who said there is not a complete ban on pistols? If everyone has to apply again for them, maybe noone will get there licence renewed!!!!

A fair point. They got rid of anyone with a licence after 19th November. Now they will whittle down the number of remaining owners with this "Good Reason" justification. TBF if they have "good reason" they have nothing to worry about if not then........... ????????????

Sparks

BryanL wrote: »

Are you still allowed a pistol in Donegal then?;)

No, because if you ever went to any of the other ranges in the country, you'd have to travel through bandit country*.






*Opinion of District Court Judge, your milage may vary!

chem

ezridax wrote: »

A fair point. They got rid of anyone with a licence after 19th November. Now they will whittle down the number of remaining owners with this "Good Reason" justification. TBF if they have "good reason" they have nothing to worry about if not then........... ????????????

So anyone know what "good reason" the gardai will accept? If they allow people to keep them for target shooting, then that allows anyone to use that reason to apply for one now, as it will be the only firearm fit for the job in pistol comps

Also. Will it be a good reason to have a semi auto full bore if your a member of the vintage classic rifle and pistol club? Seen as its a club that only uses old service rifles from WWII etc.

rrpc

chem wrote: »

So anyone know what "good reason" the gardai will accept? If they allow people to keep them for target shooting, then that allows anyone to use that reason to apply for one now, as it will be the only firearm fit for the job in pistol comps

Also. Will it be a good reason to have a semi auto full bore if your a member of the vintage classic rifle and pistol club? Seen as its a club that only uses old service rifles from WWII etc.

Chem

Read the Garda Commissioner's Guidelines. All your questions answered.



And btw, 'Good reason' has been in the Firearms Acts since the very start.

Cass

chem wrote: »

So anyone know what "good reason" the gardai will accept? If they allow people to keep them for target shooting, then that allows anyone to use that reason to apply for one now, as it will be the only firearm fit for the job in pistol comps............

Is not so much a right or wrong reason. Its not a test. Its a way for the Gardai to assess who has a legit and practical use for the firearm they are seeking a licence for. I've mentioned it in a previous post, if a person with a centrefire pistol goes to their club every week or 2 weeks, uses a few hundred rounds per session and enters as many competitions as they canthen that would be deemed as a "good" reason for seeking a licence.
On the flip side of the coin, if a person goes to their club but once every few months and uses maybe a couple of hundred rounds per year, never enters competitions etc then why would that person require a centrefire pistol. It will be the Chief Super who decides where in between these two extremes a "good reason" becomes a good reason and not just a person wishing to hold onto a pistol because they want one.

.........Will it be a good reason to have a semi auto full bore if your a member of the vintage classic rifle and pistol club? Seen as its a club that only uses old service rifles from WWII etc.

That, to me, would seem obvious enough. You could not be a member of a vintage club or practise your sport with anything other than a vintage rifle. Couldn't exactly turn up at a shoot with a 7mm BR. Once you provide membership/club affiliation details i couldn't see there being an issue.

Again i'm basing all this on the application of common sense from the Chief Supers in each district. What exactly will be the case on the day is anyone's guess.

rowa

BryanL wrote: »

Are you still allowed a pistol in Donegal then?;)
Bryan

probabily not if sinn fein are the largest party up there , they took a very high-handed line to citizens of this country owning firearms and i believe its the same across the border too , strange when you can buy a tee-shirt from them saying sniper at work , i wonder if that sniper had a licence and was a member of an authorised and inspected club :rolleyes: .

Grizzly 45

This thing with "how many times you have been at the club and have you enterd any competitions? Is going to cause another major headache..

First off..WHO is to say you are not going enough times???Do we now have to peovide "good reason" for non club attendance???Granted the once a year thing is extracting the urine on a grand scale.
But for some of us ,not within the "greater Pale area".Our clubs are appx 120klicks plus round trips betimes,over the most Godawful roads .
[ EG Anyone going to Midlands via Bossisokane/Birr will know what I am on about...That road hasnt changed or been upgraded in 25 years.:eek:]
So with the recession and fuel and whatnot ,It might be a monthly or bi monthly pilgrmage.Somthing Supers and Cheif Supers will have to factor into consideration.Now,what happens if in the Supers opinion You are going there too much???? getting abit Too good are you??Are you plannin somthin??
Which could happen too.

Using only a couple of hundred rounds a year...Says who??Bear in mind too that we are talking about 15euros per 50 for 9mm,andthere is belive it or not an actual drought for the stuff on the World market,courtsey of the Sandpit wargames and it's pouplarity as a calibre,and our now tightfistedness post celtic tiger.This could also be a factor for some people,not to mind maybe they are learning to put the slugs where they count.Not fire off clips of ammo and not learn anything of technique.[IE miss alot:)]
This is not a clearcut"one size fits all" issue by any standards.
So what I am saying and hopefully somone might pick up on this is.Dont prejudge or immediately suspect some sinister motive,just because a bloke isnt seen every weekend on the range.Or isnt entering every competition.
There could be a perfectly logical explanation as well..

Sikamick

chem wrote: »

So anyone know what "good reason" the gardai will accept? If they allow people to keep them for target shooting, then that allows anyone to use that reason to apply for one now, as it will be the only firearm fit for the job in pistol comps

Also. Will it be a good reason to have a semi auto full bore if your a member of the vintage classic rifle and pistol club? Seen as its a club that only uses old service rifles from WWII etc.

________________________________________________________________

Sorry chem we are an Association not a club, you cannot apply for a licence on the basis of on being in the Vintage Classic Rifle Association of Ireland.

You can only license on the basis of being in a Authorised club or for hunting.

Being a member of the VCRAI does help in you request for a license for a vintage rifle but it does not guarantee it.

Note not only service rifles also classic rifles.

Sikamick

rowa

Sikamick wrote: »

________________________________________________________________

Sorry chem we are an Association not a club, you cannot apply for a licence on the basis of on being in the Vintage Classic Rifle Association of Ireland.

You can only license on the basis of being in a Authorised club or for hunting.

Being a member of the VCRAI does help in you request for a license for a vintage rifle but it does not guarantee it.

Note not only service rifles also classic rifles.

Sikamick

so i can join with bsa martini target rifle ? good stuff

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

This thing with "how many times you have been at the club and have you enterd any competitions? Is going to cause another major headache..

First off..WHO is to say you are not going enough times???Do we now have to peovide "good reason" for non club attendance???Granted the once a year thing is extracting the urine on a grand scale.

It's all in the clubs SI Grizzly, all the little details of what the club has to record and how long to keep it.

All such records are to be made available to the Gardai at any time.

Grizzly 45

Know that RR.But thats not my point...Point in'm trying to make is.Just because somone doesnt show up all the time at a club.It can have less sinister reasons than some imply.

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Know that RR.But thats not my point...Point in'm trying to make is.Just because somone doesnt show up all the time at a club.It can have less sinister reasons than some imply.

Sinister is not a word I'd ever have associated with the situation Grizzly. It's more a case of people using the stuff for the reasons they said they would when they applied for the licence.

If a club recommends someone for a licence, it's their responsibility to see that the person uses it. What clubs really should do, is notify a member if they haven't been attending regularly and give them a chance to rectify the situation before it becomes a problem. Not to be a 'jobsworth' and do their best to catch somebody out, but to at least to give a 'heads up' if there's the possibility of there being an issue for the member.

Cass

rrpc wrote: »

..............If a club recommends someone for a licence, it's their responsibility to see that the person uses it..........

No club is responsible for how often or in what way a person uses their firearm. A club, if they issue a letter, mainly state that the person in question is a member and has/does practise a high level of safety and responsibility when on the range or in the field. Its a reference letter about the person's character, as viewed by fellow members/club trustees to aid in the person getting a licence but not necessarily the deciding factor in an application and by no means an undertaking to supervise that persons shooting schedule. If that was mandatory/the case i could see alot of clubs refusing to issue letters so as not to commit themselves to anything.

What clubs really should do, is notify a member if they haven't been attending regularly and give them a chance to rectify the situation before it becomes a problem..........

Good idea but not practical. You keep ringing/texting/e-mailing a person about their attendance they may very well take the hump. If you contacted them the first time and they thanked you but still did not attend due to work/other commitments how long do you leave it to contact them again and when does a helpful service become a nuisance. Plus if a club has 30 members it may be workable but what about a club with 400, 500 or 600+ members. I know some lads who are members of 2 or more clubs (game/sporting etc) and i may only see them 2 or 3 times a year. Its all they can make it due to distance, work, family etc.

I'm not trying to shoot down your idea, tbh if it could work i'd be the first to sign up. Joining a club is a free choice as is your attendance to the club. The Gardai are initiating this "minimum attendance" requirement and while it will be used for all aspects of shooting i'm under the impression its inception was based more towards pistol shooters than other disciplines.

Sparks

ezridax wrote: »

No club is responsible for how often or in what way a person uses their firearm.

That's not strictly true anymore. Under the new Clubs SI, if you have a member who doesn't show up and train during the year, you're legally required to tell the Gardai this. Though it's murky at best - there was a discussion on that on here recently.

rrpc

ezridax wrote: »

No club is responsible for how often or in what way a person uses their firearm.

They are now, and they should always have been. It's not sweets they're handing out when they recommend people for licences.

Good idea but not practical. You keep ringing/texting/e-mailing a person about their attendance they may very well take the hump.

I'm just suggesting that they notify a member that they are coming to the six month point after which their name goes on the list as required under law and that it may affect their licence renewal.

The member can take the hump, but shortly thereafter they may find themselves without a licence. Their choice.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

they should always have been

Hey, no fair giving duties without authority. If the club should be responsible for members actions after a licence is granted, they should also have the authority to grant that licence! :pac:

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Hey, no fair giving duties without authority. If the club should be responsible for members actions after a licence is granted, they should also have the authority to grant that licence! :pac:

In some respects they had that authority. Many clubs have had such a good reputation with the Gardai to the extent that although it's not a given, a letter from the club recommending a licence would be pretty much a cast iron guarantee that the licence would be issued.

Cass

rrpc wrote: »

They are now, and they should always have been. It's not sweets they're handing out when they recommend people for licences............

Some were always doing so if only in a limited capacity. No its not sweets, its a letter. The decision is still down to the Super. Yes some clubs would have more pull than others but if a club writes letters willy nilly without the necessary checks then they are at fault and yes they do bear a responsibility for appropriate use of recommendation letters. A club should not write a letter for a member unless they have a minimum 3 months without incident and with a track record for safety and awareness. My opinion only.

I'm just suggesting that they notify a member that they are coming to the six month point after which their name goes on the list as required under law and that it may affect their licence renewal.

Suggest away. Not trying to stop or ridicule you. I am allowed to disagree with you as you're free to ignore me. At the 6 month point even if you notified the member its already too late. "A designated liasion from the Gardai shall meet with representitives from clubs within their locality not less than twice a year". Not less which means they can visit every month or week for that matter.

I still maintain that a club can meet its requirements under the new SI's and inform the Gardai of attendances or lack off but thats where their responsibility ends. Members are not fools. Between people on this site reading for themselves and word of mouth most people will now know that regular attendance of their club will be a factor in getting and keeping their licences. Clubs need not, and in my opinion should not, be held responsible for "babysitting" their members. Its away of passing the blame. I lost my licence or didn't attend as much because nobody told me i only had X amount of visits. You can be guaranteed it'll happen.

Grizzly 45

Lads,
What I was meaning by" sinister" was nothing to do with the clubs responsibility as to informing members.It was more that if,and when the Gardai go and check the records,that it isnt a situation of "why hasnt Grizzly only been in over the last three months three times,when the average membership is in six times a month?"
"oh well,he isnt in here as much as the average shooter,so he must have got the gun for some "sinister" purpose" Says the Gardai.
The fact that Grizzly may have been out of the country working,short of cash,couldnt been arsed driving 120 plus klicks in the dead of Winter rainstorms on crap roads,etc etc,should be taken into account.
Fine if he only shows up once a year,or never again.Without a doubt you have a "trophy liscense" then

BUT the fact is some of us dont have normal Mon/Fri lifestyles and live within esaily commutable distances.Thats what I am on about,anyways
Its NOT the clubs responsibility to be chasing people,etc Or having to play unpaid Govt Snoop.
It should be .."he was here three times in the last 9months...We texted him,just to say hadnt seen him in ages,everything all right??Go ask him whats up.End of clubs responsibility.

We are all adults so we should know our responsibilities on firearms ownership.WHAT I am trying to find out,no doubt like many others is ,what is an acceptable level of attendance,to satisfy the paranoid in the police and club,thatI didnt aquire this gun for some illegal or "sinister " purpose. Is this any clearer??

Cass

Origially Posted by Grizzly 45

WHAT I am trying to find out,no doubt like many others is ,what is an acceptable level of attendance

There is not a hope in hell they are going to put a number on it. If they did lads would know that 4 visits (just a number i picked) per 6 months will cover them so they make their 4 visits and thats it. Job done.

I know what you're saying in relation to getting to and from the club. Job, family, unexpected events mean you can't make it then at the 6 month review your name comes up. If you made it more than the required standard in the previous 6 months you would hope common sense kicks in and the Supervising representative from the Gardai realise "this man comes on a regular/semi regular basis. Something must have prevented him from attending as often this time round".

Here's a question for you. The reviews must happen minimum twice a year but the licence lasts for 3 years. Will they revoke your licence mid way if your attendance is not up to scratch or wait till you re-apply in three years to revoke it.

rrpc

Ezridax, It's not a matter of opinion, the SI says that the club must record any members who have not participated in any of the clubs shooting functions in the preceding six months.

It's a rolling six months if you know what I mean, so it's not a case of blocking off the year into six month parcels and saying if you were present in both of them you're OK. If it was January and December it's clearly not OK. You'd really need to have attended in every quarter for the clause not to kick in.

And I suggested that the club notify members when they're coming up to six months absent so that they can rectify it, not at six months when it's no use.

I do agree, that if you 'babysit' members, then they grow to expect it. However I think for the first year of operation of the new SI, it might be best to do that until everyone becomes familiar with their obligations. As you say, this is just my opinion and it may not be possible for other clubs to do this.

By the way, you just record the information, you don't actually notify the Gardai, it's up to them to ask for it.