Public sector workers willing to take pay cuts?

Riskymove

EF wrote: »

Looks like we are in for a winter of industrial unrest!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0916/breaking21.htm

so some unions want a new ballot for a one-day protest?

a winter of unrest?

Nuravictus

“We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle”


Churchill said it best,

optocynic

EF wrote: »

Looks like we are in for a winter of industrial unrest!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0916/breaking21.htm

I guess ICTU says 'they're OK Jack'...
I would like to hear real alternatives from the unions.

Trishis

optocynic wrote: »

Really??.. I don't have a clue?
Well, lets bring it down to simple points.

Do you have a guaranteed pension?
Have you gotten an increase every year under social partnership?
Is your salary above the national average?
Are you against a new benchmarking of PS pay?

And most importantly.. are you willing to take a hit to help the economy? Like the rest of us have in salary cuts?

Obviously hit a nerve ok lets go simple if thats what you prefer!

Yes i do, i choose to be a Public servant for a pension and permanent job even thuogh the wages were lower than the private sector, why didnt you?

I work hard, so under PMDS I have gotten increments, however my increment is substantially lower than the amount the private sector dished out in annual pay reviews...5k/10K jumps....oh and the private sector got nice little bonuses at Christmas too...Public service gets about 1500 a year in increments and no bonus! But then Public servants chose to put up with that for a permanebt job and a pension...

No my salary is not about national average for my grade or my position.

Yes I am against it, why dont we look at it from another angle...would the private sector like to makch the Public sectors pay? maybe this year you would, but there is no way any of you would have opted for that over the last 10 years! No-one cared that the publis service was on low wages, low annual increments and no bonues etc...but now that theres a problem and the jobs are secure and the pension is still available....the private sector is all bitter and twisted about it.

I took a hit to help the economy already. Eh like the rest of us?...whos that, because no-one I know in the private sector has had theri wages cut? unless you are a tv presenter in RTE and need to look good in the media?! I know people who have lost their jobs alreight, they either worked in the building industry or in small businesses who were struggling anyway and the recession was an easy way to let peopl ego without legal complications.

optocynic

Trishis wrote: »

Obviously hit a nerve ok lets go simple if thats what you prefer!

Yes i do, i choose to be a Public servant for a pension and permanent job even thuogh the wages were lower than the private sector, why didnt you?

I work hard, so under PMDS I have gotten increments, however my increment is substantially lower than the amount the private sector dished out in annual pay reviews...5k/10K jumps....oh and the private sector got nice little bonuses at Christmas too...Public service gets about 1500 a year in increments and no bonus! But then Public servants chose to put up with that for a permanebt job and a pension...

No my salary is not about national average for my grade or my position.

Yes I am against it, why dont we look at it from another angle...would the private sector like to makch the Public sectors pay? maybe this year you would, but there is no way any of you would have opted for that over the last 10 years! No-one cared that the publis service was on low wages, low annual increments and no bonues etc...but now that theres a problem and the jobs are secure and the pension is still available....the private sector is all bitter and twisted about it.

I took a hit to help the economy already. Eh like the rest of us?...whos that, because no-one I know in the private sector has had theri wages cut? unless you are a tv presenter in RTE and need to look good in the media?! I know people who have lost their jobs alreight, they either worked in the building industry or in small businesses who were struggling anyway and the recession was an easy way to let peopl ego without legal complications.

Isn't it strange that the unionised ones are the ones that are today saying they are OK jack.

It has to go both ways. Why call it 'Social Partnership' if it only goes one way with you lot?

And no, my salary has not been cut, but I work for a multinational, and it is very successful... and I work in the global market for them too. In case you didn't know, the rest of the world is in recovery now... except us!!

My Mother's salary has been cut by 17.5%..
My Wifes by 10%.. and no bonus's for the forseeable future...


Where do you think the money should come from?

Nietzschean

doncarlos wrote: »

I meant a normal line supervisor in the call centre. I never mentioned IT supervisor but i can see how you may have took me up wrong.
The guy that was in my class in college had six months working part time whilst at college and got a supervisor role straight out of college and the wages that he went in on is higher than what I'm on now.

As for looking for a new job, I'm not at the minute. I love where I'm working now and I'm getting great experience. I may not have a choice as my agency is one of those being abolished under bord snip.

So your getting great experience, and i bet he's probably not. In your college qualification area that is anyway. I know plenty of people in IT who have opted over the years for up to 15k lower salary in one case for better experience and the long term career prospects that come with it. I'm personally on about 30% of the pay of a job i could have had 3 years ago, but thats irrelevant as i wanted the experience in my current position. Nevermind its more like 16% of the pay of a good few people I was in college with, I got higher results than, who had no experience leaving college but are doing different jobs...

Not commenting on whether your pay should be cut or not, but your not comparing like with like. If he was working in a grad IT program doing a similar job then maybe...

Trishis

optocynic wrote: »

Isn't it strange that the unionised ones are the ones that are today saying they are OK jack.

It has to go both ways. Why call it 'Social Partnership' if it only goes one way with you lot?

And no, my salary has not been cut, but I work for a multinational, and it is very successful... and I work in the global market for them too. In case you didn't know, the rest of the world is in recovery now... except us!!

My Mother's salary has been cut by 17.5%..
My Wifes by 10%.. and no bonus's for the forseeable future...


Where do you think the money should come from?

No bonus?! oh dear! the Public Service never had the luxury of a bonus....did the Private Sector care about that when you were being dished out one? no! why do you think the Public sector should care now...

Look if your salary hasn't been cut and you are all rosy and have a nice secure job, why dont you just worry about your own job and your own life and stop attacking other peoples wages when yours is fine, if someone came along and chopped your salary by a chunk I'm sure you would be singing off a different sheet. Give it a rest. Dont give me all the 'I'm worried about the countries ecomony' crap...lets see what happens when the salary cut comes out of your pocket....or better still how would you like to take a cut twice on one year? Where do I think the money shuold come from? I said already the High paid grade in the Public service.....and what about some private service people? or do you think that all the staff in the civil service should pay up and no-one in the private sector should?

optocynic

Trishis wrote: »

No bonus?! oh dear! the Public Service never had the luxury of a bonus....did the Private Sector care about that when you were being dished out one? no! why do you think the Public sector should care now...

Look if your salary hasn't been cut and you are all rosy and have a nice secure job, why dont you just worry about your own job and your own life and stop attacking other peoples wages when yours is fine, if someone came along and chopped your salary by a chunk I'm sure you would be singing off a different sheet. Give it a rest. Dont give me all the 'I'm worried about the countries ecomony' crap...lets see what happens when the salary cut comes out of your pocket....or better still how would you like to take a cut twice on one year? Where do I think the money shuold come from? I said already the High paid grade in the Public service.....and what about some private service people? or do you think that all the staff in the civil service should pay up and no-one in the private sector should?

WOW, that was quiet the tantrum...

I think we should ALL pay. But since the PS is 20bn a year... we need to take a CHUNK out of it... the same with welfare...

To tax the private sector more is fine.. to a degree, but we all need expendable income.. otherwise, there is no one spending...

".. Adding further darkness to a night already devoid of stars!"

But, I have to repeat it again... where do you think the money should come from?

And, since I am in the private sector, I would take serious issue with a pay cut... because I know how successful my company is... they are still turning a huge profit... no need to cut my salary...

But Ireland is broke...

Post hoc ergo propter hoc

thebman

Trishis wrote: »

No bonus?! oh dear! the Public Service never had the luxury of a bonus....did the Private Sector care about that when you were being dished out one? no! why do you think the Public sector should care now...

Look if your salary hasn't been cut and you are all rosy and have a nice secure job, why dont you just worry about your own job and your own life and stop attacking other peoples wages when yours is fine, if someone came along and chopped your salary by a chunk I'm sure you would be singing off a different sheet. Give it a rest. Dont give me all the 'I'm worried about the countries ecomony' crap...lets see what happens when the salary cut comes out of your pocket....or better still how would you like to take a cut twice on one year? Where do I think the money shuold come from? I said already the High paid grade in the Public service.....and what about some private service people? or do you think that all the staff in the civil service should pay up and no-one in the private sector should?

Eh I'd say they are talking because in reality to keep you in your lifestyle even with no wage cuts to themselves, they will have to take massive tax increases not unlike a wage cut TBH.

Do you think its fair that the private sector should take a tax increase to pay public sector wages but has to shutup about it because the public sector don't want to hear them complain about it?

optocynic

thebman wrote: »

Eh I'd say they are talking because in reality to keep you in your lifestyle even with no wage cuts to themselves, they will have to take massive tax increases not unlike a wage cut TBH.

Do you think its fair that the private sector should take a tax increase to pay public sector wages but has to shutup about it because the public sector don't want to hear them complain about it?

That is exactly what they think... It is the same as the Bull O'Donogue's attitude to his expenses...

doncarlos

Nietzschean wrote: »

So your getting great experience, and i bet he's probably not. In your college qualification area that is anyway
I know plenty of people in IT who have opted over the years for up to 15k lower salary in one case for better experience and the long term career prospects that come with it. I'm personally on about 30% of the pay of a job i could have had 3 years ago, but thats irrelevant as i wanted the experience in my current position. Nevermind its more like 16% of the pay of a good few people I was in college with, I got higher results than, who had no experience leaving college but are doing different jobs...

Not commenting on whether your pay should be cut or not, but your not comparing like with like. If he was working in a grad IT program doing a similar job then maybe...

I know it's not like for like, the original argument was that what I do is not the equivalent of what a secretary or receptionist does as irish_bob stated that clerical officers are paid more than a secretary or receptionist in the private sector. I only brought my friend into it when trying to guess the wages of someone in the It section in Vodafone.

As I've said earlier I expect my wages to be cut, I'm just hoping that it will be at a realistic level.

kippy

Trishis wrote: »

Obviously hit a nerve ok lets go simple if thats what you prefer!

Yes i do, i choose to be a Public servant for a pension and permanent job even thuogh the wages were lower than the private sector, why didnt you?

I work hard, so under PMDS I have gotten increments, however my increment is substantially lower than the amount the private sector dished out in annual pay reviews...5k/10K jumps....oh and the private sector got nice little bonuses at Christmas too...Public service gets about 1500 a year in increments and no bonus! But then Public servants chose to put up with that for a permanebt job and a pension...

No my salary is not about national average for my grade or my position.

Yes I am against it, why dont we look at it from another angle...would the private sector like to makch the Public sectors pay? maybe this year you would, but there is no way any of you would have opted for that over the last 10 years! No-one cared that the publis service was on low wages, low annual increments and no bonues etc...but now that theres a problem and the jobs are secure and the pension is still available....the private sector is all bitter and twisted about it.

I took a hit to help the economy already. Eh like the rest of us?...whos that, because no-one I know in the private sector has had theri wages cut? unless you are a tv presenter in RTE and need to look good in the media?! I know people who have lost their jobs alreight, they either worked in the building industry or in small businesses who were struggling anyway and the recession was an easy way to let peopl ego without legal complications.

Whoever you are, please stop.
You're giving a lot of people the wrong idea of the public service and your opinions, sadly, are reflected in a lot of Public sector workers, despite them being generally unfounded and incorrect. While your intentions may be admirable the way you go about achieving them are not (second time I've used this line in this thread)
You are just as bad as those who lump the "public sector" all into the same category and tar us all with the one brush.
I wonder, have you ever worked in Private industry, and if so when and for how long?
If you had you might see that your opinions of private sector workers are unfounded.
Not all private sector workers got 5-10k lump increases annually (very few actually), not all got bonuses (very few also to be fair and it being dependant on what they worked in - they were generally related to the performance of the company/individual as well, not just handed out willy nilly)

The be all and end all.
We need a functioning and healthy private sector for the country as a whole. We cant keep taxing EVERYONE. At some point the goverment has to cut its expenditure. That either comes though redundancies or wage cuts. (Below I highlight how there is a better option but will require longer term strategy and implementation, something sadly I dont think any area of the public sector can achieve.

As for PMDS, its the biggest pile of paperwork for absolutely no end result in the Public service. Absolute waste of time. The thing is you cant really NOT give someone an increment or FORCE them to do more work. Unions will have the place at a standstill if you did. Management generally dont want to rock the boat in that regard and so things carry on as they always have.
Theres lots and lots of waste in the Public service. As someone earlier mentioned, there is SOOO much paperwork required and I'd have to wonder if some of this paperwork was created just to create more jobs in the service? Between that and serious issues with budgets (spend it all this year or you wont get the same again next year {instead of lucking for value for money in spending}) mean that wastage and increased work for no REAL end result (end result being service to the public) is noticed.

optocynic

kippy wrote: »

Whoever you are, please stop.
You're giving a lot of people the wrong idea of the public service and your opinions, sadly, are reflected in a lot of Public sector workers, despite them being generally unfounded and incorrect. While your intentions may be admirable the way you go about achieving them are not (second time I've used this line in this thread)
You are just as bad as those who lump the "public sector" all into the same category and tar us all with the one brush.
I wonder, have you ever worked in Private industry, and if so when and for how long?
If you had you might see that your opinions of private sector workers are unfounded.
Not all private sector workers got 5-10k lump increases annually (very few actually), not all got bonuses (very few also to be fair and it being dependant on what they worked in - they were generally related to the performance of the company/individual as well, not just handed out willy nilly)

The be all and end all.
We need a functioning and healthy private sector for the country as a whole. We cant keep taxing EVERYONE. At some point the goverment has to cut its expenditure. That either comes though redundancies or wage cuts. (Below I highlight how there is a better option but will require longer term strategy and implementation, something sadly I dont think any area of the public sector can achieve.

As for PMDS, its the biggest pile of paperwork for absolutely no end result in the Public service. Absolute waste of time. The thing is you cant really NOT give someone an increment or FORCE them to do more work. Unions will have the place at a standstill if you did. Management generally dont want to rock the boat in that regard and so things carry on as they always have.
Theres lots and lots of waste in the Public service. As someone earlier mentioned, there is SOOO much paperwork required and I'd have to wonder if some of this paperwork was created just to create more jobs in the service? Between that and serious issues with budgets (spend it all this year or you wont get the same again next year {instead of lucking for value for money in spending}) mean that wastage and increased work for no REAL end result (end result being service to the public) is noticed.

Everyone...

What he said!

doncarlos

thebman wrote: »

Do you think its fair that the private sector should take a tax increase to pay public sector wages but has to shutup about it because the public sector don't want to hear them complain about it?

Your not paying just for wages your paying for a service. If wages or jobs are cut across the board do you think that you would get the same level of service?
I don't think anybody can argue that we are spending too much on public spending but there is no way around this without a combination of higher tax, pay cuts and job cuts.
Hopefully most of the job cuts would come from a mixture of natural wastage and early retirement. Career breaks and voluntary redundancies should also be looked at with attractive packages for both. There is already a pay freeze and a promotion freeze in the public sector so when the economy picks up again a lot of public sector workers will jump ship to the private sector.

optocynic

doncarlos wrote: »

Your not paying just for wages your paying for a service. If wages or jobs are cut across the board do you think that you would get the same level of service?

Actually, this is exactly what most people think.
There was huge recruitment in the Public sector during the boom, but all the rest of us got was more buraucracy... and bin charges!
Not a higher level of service.

irish_bob

doncarlos wrote: »

You really don't have a clue do you?? Clerical officer is a grade not a job description. I'm on the clerical officer grade and work in the IT department of a semi state body. I carry out high skilled work and have an honours degree in IT.

I'm expecting more wage cuts but talk of 50, 25, or even 10% like you have suggested are absolutely ridiculous. They would cripple me and most workers on the same grade/payscales financially.

just like VULNERABLE, cripple me is a subjective term , if by cripple , you mean , you would not have enough to buy food or educate your children , pay the electricity bill , then i dont believe you

doncarlos

optocynic wrote: »

Actually, this is exactly what most people think.
There was huge recruitment in the Public sector during the boom, but all the rest of us got was more buraucracy... and bin charges!
Not a higher level of service.

Ok, let me put it like this if we keep tax at the same level and cut wages in the pubic sector by 15% and cut jobs by 15% in a last in first out policy do you think that you will get the same level of service?

I'd be surprised if the public service figures really where that much higher in the boom years than before. There were a lot of semi-state bodies privatised at this time remember.

Trishis

kippy wrote: »

Whoever you are, please stop.
You're giving a lot of people the wrong idea of the public service and your opinions, sadly, are reflected in a lot of Public sector workers, despite them being generally unfounded and incorrect. While your intentions may be admirable the way you go about achieving them are not (second time I've used this line in this thread)
You are just as bad as those who lump the "public sector" all into the same category and tar us all with the one brush.
I wonder, have you ever worked in Private industry, and if so when and for how long?
If you had you might see that your opinions of private sector workers are unfounded.
Not all private sector workers got 5-10k lump increases annually (very few actually), not all got bonuses (very few also to be fair and it being dependant on what they worked in - they were generally related to the performance of the company/individual as well, not just handed out willy nilly)

The be all and end all.
We need a functioning and healthy private sector for the country as a whole. We cant keep taxing EVERYONE. At some point the goverment has to cut its expenditure. That either comes though redundancies or wage cuts. (Below I highlight how there is a better option but will require longer term strategy and implementation, something sadly I dont think any area of the public sector can achieve.

As for PMDS, its the biggest pile of paperwork for absolutely no end result in the Public service. Absolute waste of time. The thing is you cant really NOT give someone an increment or FORCE them to do more work. Unions will have the place at a standstill if you did. Management generally dont want to rock the boat in that regard and so things carry on as they always have.
Theres lots and lots of waste in the Public service. As someone earlier mentioned, there is SOOO much paperwork required and I'd have to wonder if some of this paperwork was created just to create more jobs in the service? Between that and serious issues with budgets (spend it all this year or you wont get the same again next year {instead of lucking for value for money in spending}) mean that wastage and increased work for no REAL end result (end result being service to the public) is noticed.

Firstly, who do you think you are asking me to stop giving my opinion? how arrogant are you! Yes I have worked in the Private Sector and opted for the Public Sector for personal reasons.

I still do not think the low grades in the civil service should have their wages chopped again. I have never worked in the service outside of Dublin so have no idea what offices in the country are like but i can say that headquarter offices in Dublin are very busy and if there is any slacking going on its not the low ranking public servants doing it.

My opinions of Private sector workers are from my experience and yours are from your experience. Everyone I know in the public service got large pay increases over the last few years and bonuses every christmas.

irish_bob

SparkyLarks wrote: »

am I the only one who thinks that it;s about numbers in the Public service as opposed to the actual Pay.

Yes the Top earners need to be hammered, and moved need to be taken the salaries in the Public sector closer to the European norms in the long term.

But the real key is to get rid of the larg administrative burdens placed on the front line staff.

Lots of other reform needed as well, regarding expenses, subsidies cantees and the like.

what appear to most working stiffs to be surplus to requirement spare pricks are in actual fact solid fianna fail voters , quango,s grew bumper crops of them

optocynic

doncarlos wrote: »

Ok, let me put it like this if we keep tax at the same level and cut wages in the pubic sector by 15% and cut jobs by 15% in a last in first out policy do you think that you will get the same level of service?

Honestly.. I rarely consume public services.. and ones I do, I pay seperately for (Bins, Roads, water soon etc.)
So, I can honestly say, it would not affect me at all, if it was done properly.

No Garda job cuts, no Nurse job cuts are my only requests!

doncarlos

irish_bob wrote: »

just like VULNERABLE, cripple me is a subjective term , if by cripple , you mean , you would not have enough to buy food or educate your children , pay the electricity bill , then i dont believe you

As in cripple, not enough money to pay my bills and rent than yes i would be crippled. I would be better off on the dole and getting rent allowance.

optocynic

Trishis wrote: »

My opinions of Private sector workers are from my experience and yours are from your experience. Everyone I know in the public service got large pay increases over the last few years and bonuses every christmas.

I think you mean 'Private Sector'... right?

Do you think they got that for doing nothing... it is ALL performance based!
No results = no raise + no bonus.

optocynic

doncarlos wrote: »

As in cripple, not enough money to pay my bills and rent than yes i would be crippled. I would be better off on the dole and getting rent allowance.

And that is why you should be left alone!

c montgomery

Drumpot wrote: »

Theres also the point of, if I as a private worker are taking a pay cut and I am also having to contribute more taxes to subsidise the public sector, then I am getting double whameyed . .

The term you are looking for is spitrosted, F'ed from both ends!!!!!!!

irish_bob

doncarlos wrote: »

Your not paying just for wages your paying for a service. If wages or jobs are cut across the board do you think that you would get the same level of service?
I don't think anybody can argue that we are spending too much on public spending but there is no way around this without a combination of higher tax, pay cuts and job cuts.
Hopefully most of the job cuts would come from a mixture of natural wastage and early retirement. Career breaks and voluntary redundancies should also be looked at with attractive packages for both. There is already a pay freeze and a promotion freeze in the public sector so when the economy picks up again a lot of public sector workers will jump ship to the private sector.

the claim that services must suffer if wages are cut is the biggest red fish of them all , if that were the case then nurses or police or doctors in the uk or other parts of europe would be providing an inferior service to the irish state sector and we all know that they dont

as for the claim that a lot of public sector workers will jump ship to the private sector , are you serious , give up a bullett proof pension for an entirely unpredictable one , take a huge pay cut , work harder ????

Drumpot

c montgomery wrote: »

The term you are looking for is spitrosted, F'ed from both ends!!!!!!!

You said it . .

Like the Aliens v Predator slogan . .

Whoever wins, we lose . . :eek:

thebman

You could easily remove the need for probably a few hundred, maybe thousands of jobs in the public sector if you implemented proper computer systems and removed much of the paper work.

Obviously some work needs to be on paper but so many backward policies. I'm not saying it is a uniquely public sector thing either. The same could happen in many private companies if people knew how to use computers properly.

kippy

Trishis wrote: »

Firstly, who do you think you are asking me to stop giving my opinion? how arrogant are you! Yes I have worked in the Private Sector and opted for the Public Sector for personal reasons.

I still do not think the low grades in the civil service should have their wages chopped again. I have never worked in the service outside of Dublin so have no idea what offices in the country are like but i can say that headquarter offices in Dublin are very busy and if there is any slacking going on its not the low ranking public servants doing it.

My opinions of Private sector workers are from my experience and yours are from your experience. Everyone I know in the public service got large pay increases over the last few years and bonuses every christmas.

Sorry,
I wasnt asking you to stop giving your opinion.
I was asking you to stop being so blinkered and biased.

When you worked in the private sector did you EVER get an annual increase of 5k or anything close to it for that matter? Did you EVER receive a bonus?

The main reason a lot of these offices are busy is because of the sheer amount of paperwork involved in most of the public service. Theres been a serious lack of wanting to move online or reduce paperwork. People make the argument that we need paperwork so that we can trace things and have accountability but we all know theres feck all accountability at almost any level in Public Service.

I assume you meant everyone you knew in the PRIVATE sector go 5-10 k extra per annum as well as massive bonus' every christmas?
Did you know any Barpeople, Restraunt staff, shop assistants, Secretarys, first level IT support people working for large multinationals, private bus drivers, young people working in finance for large multinationals? I know lots of those people (the type of jobs that exist in the vast majority of Private sector are these type) and none were milking it as much as your friends.

irish_bob

Trishis wrote: »

Firstly, who do you think you are asking me to stop giving my opinion? how arrogant are you! Yes I have worked in the Private Sector and opted for the Public Sector for personal reasons.

I still do not think the low grades in the civil service should have their wages chopped again. I have never worked in the service outside of Dublin so have no idea what offices in the country are like but i can say that headquarter offices in Dublin are very busy and if there is any slacking going on its not the low ranking public servants doing it.

My opinions of Private sector workers are from my experience and yours are from your experience. Everyone I know in the public service got large pay increases over the last few years and bonuses every christmas.

banks , insurance companies etc , sure , small business which employ most people in the private sector dont pay bonuses for the most part

Stark

The only way you will ever get a 5k increase in the private sector is by moving jobs (or showing your current employer a job offer from a new employer). The same option of moving jobs is open to people in the public sector so that's a moot point.