Public sector workers willing to take pay cuts?

Wiley1

Tipp Man wrote: »

Just so that you can get an idea of how much the public sector pay has increased over the last few year.


The private sector need to stop for a second and actually think about exactly how much free pay increases the public sector have got and just let it sink in. If people actually thought about it they'd be marching in the streets. Until the public sector is tackled this country is doomed

This is the "Us and them" syndrome again, nobody forced you to work in the private sector, Public jobs were available on a regular basis advertised weekly in the National not just Local press, the average worker doesn't decide to give him or herself a 67% pay increase. What a world that would be.

I totally agree with you that it's unsustainable but who will have the balls to stand up and make the changes, If there over 1.7 million in the private sector imagine the reaction if they took to the streets, Alas we would retake the country....

Some people in the private sector need to stop and remember that we are taxpayers too like yourselves and that the private sector doesn't pay our wages....

optocynic

Wiley1 wrote: »

Some people in the private sector need to stop and remember that we are taxpayers too like yourselves and that the private sector doesn't pay our wages....

Well, if we don't who the hell does?

Tipp Man

Wiley1 wrote: »

This is the "Us and them" syndrome again, nobody forced you to work in the private sector, Public jobs were available on a regular basis advertised weekly in the National not just Local press, the average worker doesn't decide to give him or herself a 67% pay increase. What a world that would be.

I totally agree with you that it's unsustainable but who will have the balls to stand up and make the changes, If there over 1.7 million in the private sector imagine the reaction if they took to the streets, Alas we would retake the country....

Some people in the private sector need to stop and remember that we are taxpayers too like yourselves and that the private sector doesn't pay our wages....

Here's something that i posted in another thread about public sector paying tax and shows how actually the private sector does contribute a significant amount of your wages

Tipp Man wrote: »

The public sector doesn't generate funds from which to pay taxes, for example a public sector worker earning 50k paying 10k tax is costing the government 40k. Now the government could simple say ps worker you are now earning 40k but paying no tax. The effect on the government's expenditure is zero, they still only need to pay 40k. So you could (theorectically) do away with public servants paying tax:) however the 40k has to come from somewhere and it always comes from the private sector from PAYE, Corp Tax etc (i'm ignoring VAT receipts). If a private sector worker also on 50k paying 10k tax was told he no longer had to pay tax then the government is down 10k in income. So the private sector worker is contributing to the Governement tax take but the public sector is not (net)

The idea should NOT be to compare fireman, Gardai, teachers etc to private sector workers, they should be compared to these services in other countries and paid similarly as well

80% is obviously rubbish but cuts, and quite drastic cuts actually, will certainly have to be made, the current situation is completly unsustainable

Wiley1

optocynic wrote: »

Well, if we don't who the hell does?

Obviously its all taxpayers money, so in effect we are contributing to our own wages along with the private sector taxes that cover all public sector expenditure.

I'm not saying that you don't contribute, you definitely do, private and public sector taxes cover Gardai, hospitals, buses, trains, and all the rest, we (private and public0 as taxpayers all foot the bill for anything that uses public money....

If you're admitted to hospital and have no private healthcare you will still get treatment, if you are laid off you can claim a medical card, let's not write the country off totally, it's a great little country but there are muppets running the show....

rumour

Wiley1 wrote: »

This is the "Us and them" syndrome again, nobody forced you to work in the private sector, Public jobs were available on a regular basis advertised weekly in the National not just Local press, the average worker doesn't decide to give him or herself a 67% pay increase. What a world that would be.

I totally agree with you that it's unsustainable but who will have the balls to stand up and make the changes, If there over 1.7 million in the private sector imagine the reaction if they took to the streets, Alas we would retake the country....

Some people in the private sector need to stop and remember that we are taxpayers too like yourselves and that the private sector doesn't pay our wages....

Respectfully put forward the IMF and ECB. They will just turn the money off soon. I don't think it will be this year . It shall be interesting to see the national reaction to that scenario.

Wiley1

Tipp Man wrote: »

Here's something that i posted in another thread about public sector paying tax and shows how actually the private sector does contribute a significant amount of your wages

So what you're saying is that the public sector workers should pay no PAYE/Income tax, great!!

Every time I buy something in the shop/Diesel/smokes/beer or anything i pay VAT so am contributing to the public finances, look and the big picture, can the private sector supply the same services as the ones provided by the public sector ? If so I would love to see that happen.

Iarnrod Eirinn is one of the biggest loss maker in the country but still has to function, a private company wouldn't last 3 weeks making losses like that. What private sector business man would even entertain the notion of taking on that? Yet you give out if there's no trains.....

It's attitudes like this that needs to change, get on the same side and direct the critisisms to the power that be, not at eachother...

Wiley1

rumour wrote: »

Respectfully put forward the IMF and ECB. They will just turn the money off soon. I don't think it . It shall be interesting to see the national reaction to that scenario.

Rumor, you're dead right, what way will things turn then at all?

And private and public are all in this together...

thebman

Tipp Man wrote: »

Here's something that i posted in another thread about public sector paying tax and shows how actually the private sector does contribute a significant amount of your wages

Its hilarious that people in the public sector don't get that argument.

I'm pretty sure its just denial.

Tipp Man

Wiley1 wrote: »

So what you're saying is that the public sector workers should pay no PAYE/Income tax, great!!

Every time I buy something in the shop/Diesel/smokes/beer or anything i pay VAT so am contributing to the public finances, look and the big picture, can the private sector supply the same services as the ones provided by the public sector ? If so I would love to see that happen.

Iarnrod Eirinn is one of the biggest loss maker in the country but still has to function, a private company wouldn't last 3 weeks making losses like that. What private sector business man would even entertain the notion of taking on that? Yet you give out if there's no trains.....

It's attitudes like this that needs to change, get on the same side and direct the critisisms to the power that be, not at eachother...

In my post i said excluding VAT which accounts for about 32% of the governments tax take. You can't deny that the Public service do not contribute direct tax to the governments tax take

The fact of the matter is the Public service is costing too much money, the wage increases that i highlighted earlier are ridiculous and the public sector wage bill needs to be slashed.

Really surprised that you brought up Iarnrod Eireann as it is probably the best example of of a state run body that is completly imcompetent. The question about Iarnrod Eireann is if it was in private hands and without the ridiculous union mentality would it be losing as much money?? I think its fair to say probably not which means the tax payer is not getting value for money from it (which is hardly surprising, I know a line inspector who regularly sleeps his entire working day, and we wonder why incidents like the Malahide viaduct happen)

Tipp Man

thebman wrote: »

Its hilarious that people in the public sector don't get that argument.

I'm pretty sure its just denial.

It must be denial, they really don't want to hear it

jprender

Tipp Man wrote: »

The fact of the matter is the Public service is costing too much money,

This really is what it is all about.

It's quite basic really, we don't have the money to pay for these public services, be they the most efficient services in the history of all public service, or not.

We can't afford it.

Cuts are inevitable, it's just a question of how much and in what form.

thebman

I want to know how Irish Rail drivers justify their wages. I'm not saying they don't deserve them, I would just like to see the list of responsibilities that makes them deserve that wage.

If it was a private sector job, I think the wage bill would probably be halved (don't ask me to back that up as obviously I haven't done the math). I just don't see many skilled jobs in the company TBH. Same with Dublin Bus whose management should mostly be sacked and replaced by people who don't think sending almost all buses through the city centre is efficient.

Wiley1

jprender wrote: »

This really is what it is all about.

It's quite basic really, we don't have the money to pay for these public services, be they the most efficient services in the history of all public service, or not.

We can't afford it.

Cuts are inevitable, it's just a question of how much and in what form.

I agree wholeheartedly, the public sector does cost too much but like Iarnrod Eirinn it has to keep functioning, Cut the fat and start running the public sector the same way a private sector business would operate. It seems black and white to me.

I said in previous posts about accepting wage cuts and having to deal with what that brings, It's not denial when you accept these facts.

What's with the jibes at the ordinary public sector Joe, We have the same bills, same mortages, cars, kids as everone else. At the end of the day we're only trying to get by, Lose the Us and Them.

Look to FAS, Banks, Developers, Building societies and the John O'Donoghue's of the public sector...These are some of the places where the fat can be trimmed, actually sliced....

Wiley1

The fact of the matter is the Public service is costing too much money

What "Public Service" is this? Which one of the following will we get rid off to cut the wage bill.

Rail
Roads,
Infrastructure
Water supply
Housing
Community Development
Social Welfare
Hospitals
Gardai
Etc Etc....

Yes the wage bill is massive because it all comes from one place, where as the private wages all come from each individual company, Somebody equate the total private sector wage bill from each company and tell me if any centrally controlled yet complex fund would work another way and if so how, then maybe the government will take on the idea and all our problems are solved....

Once again I agree that the wage bill needs to be cut.....Public service doesn't have to suffer though...

dearg lady

Wiley1 wrote: »

I agree wholeheartedly, the public sector does cost too much but like Iarnrod Eirinn it has to keep functioning, Cut the fat and start running the public sector the same way a private sector business would operate. It seems black and white to me.

I said in previous posts about accepting wage cuts and having to deal with what that brings, It's not denial when you accept these facts.

What's with the jibes at the ordinary public sector Joe, We have the same bills, same mortages, cars, kids as everone else. At the end of the day we're only trying to get by, Lose the Us and Them.

Look to FAS, Banks, Developers, Building societies and the John O'Donoghue's of the public sector...These are some of the places where the fat can be trimmed, actually sliced....

Good post Wiley1. I could cry with frustration readin some of the posts on this thread, the whole public sector v private sector thing is madness, I think most if not all of us have family and friends in both sectors. To target one group to the extremr seems crazy to me. What I'd like to see is cuts to be as fair as possible. I also think aside from just wages(which shoudl be cut) there are huge savings to be made in the public sector, there is so much waste and bizarre practices that go on that just waste taxpayers money.

Equally the pointing the finger, someone else caused it, why should I suffer mentality. At this point, it's irrelavant who caused it, spending has to be cut or the country will be bankrupted.

On a sidenote, I'd also welcome performance related salary reviews. the current system of automatic yearly increments makes the lazy people lazier, and offers little motivation to everyone else.

Dannyboy83

Wiley1 wrote: »

I agree wholeheartedly, the public sector does cost too much but like Iarnrod Eirinn it has to keep functioning, Cut the fat and start running the public sector the same way a private sector business would operate. It seems black and white to me.

I said in previous posts about accepting wage cuts and having to deal with what that brings, It's not denial when you accept these facts.

What's with the jibes at the ordinary public sector Joe, We have the same bills, same mortages, cars, kids as everone else. At the end of the day we're only trying to get by, Lose the Us and Them.

Look to FAS, Banks, Developers, Building societies and the John O'Donoghue's of the public sector...These are some of the places where the fat can be trimmed, actually sliced....

But we know that is not going to happen. It will be you and others taking the cuts.

The politicans have refused, the judges have refused etc....
What can be done about it?

Wiley1

dearg lady wrote: »

Good post Wiley1. I could cry with frustration readin some of the posts on this thread, the whole public sector v private sector thing is madness, I think most if not all of us have family and friends in both sectors. To target one group to the extremr seems crazy to me. What I'd like to see is cuts to be as fair as possible. I also think aside from just wages(which shoudl be cut) there are huge savings to be made in the public sector, there is so much waste and bizarre practices that go on that just waste taxpayers money.

Equally the pointing the finger, someone else caused it, why should I suffer mentality. At this point, it's irrelavant who caused it, spending has to be cut or the country will be bankrupted.

On a sidenote, I'd also welcome performance related salary reviews. the current system of automatic yearly increments makes the lazy people lazier, and offers little motivation to everyone else.

Exactly, never mind wallowing in blame and despair, let's get the lads out that caused this and start a fresh, Fresh thinkers and Do-ers, no talkers...

It is too bizarre to comprehend that the parties that caused this mess
i.e government and banks are the ones who are negotiating the way to fix it, Argh....

Perfomance related salary reviews are a must in the public sector, I see some of the goings on and I know that if it were in the private sector the people involved would be on the dole quicker than you can say NAMA sucks....

Wiley1

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

But we know that is not going to happen. It will be you and others taking the cuts.

The politicans have refused, the judges have refused etc....
What can be done about it?

In my infinite wisdom (not) the answer is i don't know dannyboy. Like you say inevitably we will suffer the burden, but on the bright side we're living on the best little Island on the planet...wouldn't leave it for anything....

jprender

Unfortunately, Ireland need a quick fix here and cutting the wage bill and a cull of workers in the PS is the solution the Govt will go with.

After this happens, I do agree with you that the system needs an overhaul and believe it would be beneficial to have performance related pay structures etc etc like you have said.

di2772

Tipp Man wrote: »

Just so that you can get an idea of how much the public sector pay has increased over the last few year.

In 2000 the average Garda (including overtime) earned 837, in 2008 it was 1,207, a 44% increase, excluding overtime it went from 737 to 1.076 (still 44% increase)
the average secondary teacher earned 685 in 2000, which increased to 1,078 in 2008, a whopping 57% increase.
an administrative civil servant went from 538 in 2000 to 900 in 2008, an incredible 67%, yes 67% increase

Any whats even more amazing is that these increases applied regardless of performance, I mean coming from the private sector i just can't fathom this.
Now for the love of God someone show me any private sector, and i mean any private sector where the wages have increased like this. It just doesn't happen cause its completely unsustainable.

The private sector need to stop for a second and actually think about exactly how much free pay increases the public sector have got and just let it sink in. If people actually thought about it they'd be marching in the streets. Until the public sector is tackled this country is doomed

Why do people insist on only looking at one side of the equation?
Between those years what did the average industrial wage go up by?

http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=QIJA.asp&TableName=Industrial+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_QI

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/current/earnlabcosts.pdf

And then think about what people in the private sector with skilled jobs on above the average industrial wage increased their salary by since then. In my own field its about 250%.

irish_bob

Wiley1 wrote: »

That is true, it's a bit of generalisation against a lot of hard working grass roots people but it is very true of a lot of the higher paid public servants.

Believe me, I E-Mailed Thomas Byrne TD (FF)to complain about the pension levy and basically told him that €500 a month is leaving mine and girlfriends pocket with this and that the house was in danger, I got a nonchalant reply saying don't be stupid, public sector workers will never lose their home...Stop being so heartless to others in worse positions.

Last week I read in the paper that he has claimed the 2nd highest expenses in the county....How are these people not A.Jailed or B.Lynched on the street, WHO is voting for them???

thomas byrne is one of the few in fianna fail i have some time for , i believe hes a decent skin , capable , articulate and one to watch in the future

irish_bob

optocynic wrote: »

For the unity to happen... the Public Sector need to shake off the dangerous O'Connor types... using you as a political football!

Now, when we hear Public Sector... we simply think obtuse SIPTU morons.

+1 , o connor is in a war about more than wage cuts , the man is a far left idealogue who thinks his time has come

irish_bob

Tipp Man wrote: »

Just so that you can get an idea of how much the public sector pay has increased over the last few year.

In 2000 the average Garda (including overtime) earned 837, in 2008 it was 1,207, a 44% increase, excluding overtime it went from 737 to 1.076 (still 44% increase)
the average secondary teacher earned 685 in 2000, which increased to 1,078 in 2008, a whopping 57% increase.
an administrative civil servant went from 538 in 2000 to 900 in 2008, an incredible 67%, yes 67% increase

Any whats even more amazing is that these increases applied regardless of performance, I mean coming from the private sector i just can't fathom this.
Now for the love of God someone show me any private sector, and i mean any private sector where the wages have increased like this. It just doesn't happen cause its completely unsustainable.

The private sector need to stop for a second and actually think about exactly how much free pay increases the public sector have got and just let it sink in. If people actually thought about it they'd be marching in the streets. Until the public sector is tackled this country is doomed

while you are absolutley right tipp man , you forget that while the majority of people do not work in the public sector , this being a small country , thier is hardly anyone who does not have family who does work for the state and if thier is one thing that irish people like , its keeping money in the family , a broke farmer , hardware store owner or panel beater will support his wife who is a nurse , daughter who is a clerical officer or cousin who is a teacher up in leitrim to the hilt , irish familys are close knit no matter how extended or large which could explain the surprisingly large level of support for strikes and opposition to pay cuts

The Muppet

irish_bob wrote: »

i would like to see a 35% cut in wages for consultants , judges and politicians , a 25% cut over two years for teachers nurses and guards and a 10% pay cut for clerical officers who are still considerably better paid than secretary and recptionists in the private sector

that would still put theese professions ahead of countries of equal wealth to us


ps , i would also like to see the dole and the old age pension reduced by around 25%

Where would it put these professions in relation to countries with an equal cost of living to us ?

erictheviking

irish_bob wrote: »

i would like to see a 35% cut in wages for consultants , judges and politicians , a 25% cut over two years for teachers nurses and guards and a 10% pay cut for clerical officers who are still considerably better paid than secretary and recptionists in the private sector

that would still put theese professions ahead of countries of equal wealth to us


ps , i would also like to see the dole and the old age pension reduced by around 25%

But leave the Farmers, Property Developers and buy to let chancers alone, hey Bob?:rolleyes::rolleyes:.

Riskymove

erictheviking wrote: »

But leave the Farmers, Property Developers and buy to let chancers alone, hey Bob?:rolleyes::rolleyes:.

ah but you see, you forget that while the majority of us are not farmers, developers or landlords, if its one thing the irish like doing, its keeping money in the family. Sure we all have a farmer, a property developer or a landlord in the family and we wouldn't want them to lose money.

irish_bob

The Muppet wrote: »

Where would it put these professions in relation to countries with an equal cost of living to us ?

the cost of living arguement is a red herring , that will drop over night when wages come back plus wellfare , retailers or service providers cannot have thier prices out of sync with the purchasing power of its customers ( rents falling = prime example ) but the cost of living never makes the 1st move

irish_bob

erictheviking wrote: »

But leave the Farmers, Property Developers and buy to let chancers alone, hey Bob?:rolleyes::rolleyes:.

farmers work in the private sector and dairy farmers ( my brother is one and i often help out on home farm ) have seen a 40% drop in income in the past 18 mths , the average farmer earns a third of what the average ps worker earns

the main problem with farming in ireland is that thier are too many of them and that too many civil servants at the dept of agri ( in order to justify thier unsackable possitions ) are sent out to farms to hassle farmers with pointless exercises and enfrocement of red tape

murf313

its amazing reading through this thread how spiteful people are (irish_bob, tippman)
you really seem to have a chip on your shoulder about the public service. its actually quite sad.

sure, the public sector needs to be shaken up and alot of the waste done away with.

but i can tell you right now there WONT be cuts to wages like your suggesting. if you think for one minute that our useless government have the balls to cut pay you are sadly mistaken.

maybe you should cop onto yourselves and release public servants are people like you with mortgages etc.
if you implement a 25% cut, they will be unable to pay their bill etc.
maybe you would rather see them on the street........

The Muppet

irish_bob wrote: »

the cost of living arguement is a red herring , that will drop over night when wages come back plus wellfare , retailers or service providers cannot have thier prices out of sync with the purchasing power of its customers ( rents falling = prime example ) but the cost of living never makes the 1st move

Here's a radical idea, How about dropping the actual cost of living first and then lowering wages in line with that.

Saying the cost of living will definitely drop is a red herring IMO. Petrol, energy prices, existing mortgage's etc are only going one way over the next few years and it's not down.