Public sector workers willing to take pay cuts?

ronbyrne2005

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I think "large" should be substituted for "massive". It is closer to the reality, and is not a loaded term.

Yeah 300% increase in health spending over a decade isnt massive is it :rolleyes:

irish_bob

kippy wrote: »

Indeed, however I wouldnt say "numerous reports" prove or disprove anything. (for either side)
What they generally do is put forward a load of statistics sometimes without actually looking a bit deeper into it.
There are numerous reports out there stating that the average Public Sector wage equates to circa 48K PA, Gross.
The only other "average" people have to weigh this against is the "average industrial wage" which I believe stood at approximately 35k PA.
People on the street get very peeved off at the disparity, however when you analyse it a bit more you can see a number of reasons why these averages may be so far apart.
1. The number of highly qualified, skilled workers in the Public Service (pushing the average wage up)
2. The number of low skilled (no need for college education etc) jobs in the private sector, pulling the average down.

Not making excuses/disagreeing with you, just asking people to keep a relatively open mind on the various figures/percentages/perks being put out there as fact in these recent times.

thier are many college graduates now working in minimum wage jobs , i dont buy the arguement that because public sector workers are on average better educated , they should be paid more , a clerical officer who,s dutys dont extend beyond the ability to answer a phone , use a photo copier and post a letter doesnt need to have a college degree yet they are paid much more than a secretery who works in a solicitors office in the private sector

irish_bob

kippy wrote: »

Indeed, however I wouldnt say "numerous reports" prove or disprove anything. (for either side)
What they generally do is put forward a load of statistics sometimes without actually looking a bit deeper into it.
There are numerous reports out there stating that the average Public Sector wage equates to circa 48K PA, Gross.
The only other "average" people have to weigh this against is the "average industrial wage" which I believe stood at approximately 35k PA.
People on the street get very peeved off at the disparity, however when you analyse it a bit more you can see a number of reasons why these averages may be so far apart.
1. The number of highly qualified, skilled workers in the Public Service (pushing the average wage up)
2. The number of low skilled (no need for college education etc) jobs in the private sector, pulling the average down.

Not making excuses/disagreeing with you, just asking people to keep a relatively open mind on the various figures/percentages/perks being put out there as fact in these recent times.

thier are many college graduates now working in minimum wage jobs , i dont buy the arguement that because public sector workers are on average better educated , they should be paid more , a clerical officer who,s dutys dont extend beyond the ability to answer a phone , use a photo copier and post a letter doesnt need to have a college degree yet they are paid much more than a secretery who works in a solicitors office in the private sector

many people are over qualified for the jobs they do , in recent times , the best example are nurses

irish_bob

Stark wrote: »

We were getting by fine on tax yields similar to our current tax yields in 2002/2003 and we were considered wealthy then. Between 2003 and 2009, spending rose to crazy levels as interest groups started salivating at the incoming revenue generated by the property bubble, which should have been going into infrastructure to provide us with a soft landing when the bubble burst. Like it our not, the public sector was one of the biggest benefactors of this unsustainable spending binge.

true and as a result , they as a whole are one of the reasons we are in such a mess , the source of revenue which allowed them the title of europe,s highest paid state workers is dead and buried , the only thing which would allow public sector workers to continue on wages they have become accusomed to is if their were much much larger raises in income tax levels and i for one will march on the streets if they try and do that , im not paying through the nost for a spoilt underworked bunch who think they leave a more pleasant odour in the bathroom than the rest of us

irish_bob

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

Public sector workers my not be responsible for the mess we are in but they were happy to take the massive increases in pay/pensions/staff numbers which WAS DIRECTLY funded by temporary tax windfall.

indeed , after bertie aherne, property developers were the gift that kept on giving to public sector workers this past decade

irish_bob

Drumpot wrote: »

Employer to Worker: "Im sorry, we cannot afford your wages, we are going to have to ask you to take a paycut"
Employee: "But I have more qualifications, work harder, am more productive and contribute more to the company then I did when I joined". "Its not my fault the company is in trouble"
Employer to Worker: " Im sorry, I understand you work hard and had nothing to do with our drop in income but we simply cannot afford it. Either we discuss a redundancy package or you agree to a paycut". "This is not because I want to give you a paycut . . Its because I have no choice".

Now, whether you are public or private worker . . What exactly does "Its not my fault" have ANYTHING to do with a debate on whether or not you should take a pay cut ?

One of the major differances is if a company cannot afford its wages, it looks to cut these costs. Any extra costs are on the companies own back so they are motivated to bring costs in line with their profits.

If a country cannot afford its wages its the taxpayers that end up footing the costs with increased taxes for everybody. If taxes are increased it only means we will get the same public services that we currently get (ie we dont get more for our money).

If public servants wonder why there is so much bitterness in their direction its for this very reason. A select few are responsible for this crisis and we are all footing the bill, so why do I constantly read P.S. posts of "we didnt get us into this mess"? Some could argue that it was the highest paid public servants that did in fact walk us into this recession, but that gets us nowhere . .

If public service costs arent cut then it will be those in the private sector who are paying for it. If private sector costs are cut, it will be the private sector workers who will be paying for it. Either way, how do private sector workers get some sort of "value for cuts"?

I propose an end to the generous Public service pension. That would save us 1bil+ straight away and sure many P.S.'s dont seem to value their pension anyways so it shouldnt be a problem (but of course as soon as they find out how valuable they are, there will be uproar!).

Bottom line is that we have a 20billion + deficit that needs to be plugged. To expect the taxpayer to foot the public service bill because you feel you are entitled to a salary is no less ridiculous then for people to expect the public service to pay the entire price for this crisis . .

its called a sense of entitlement , the public sector not only think we the tax payer should cough up more so as they can maintain thier levels of pay , they think we should do so without the slighest hint of protest , hence thier cries of , why are we being demonised , they would gladly bleed the tax paying stiffs dry , they believe they are better than us

irish_bob

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

I've a question:

Anyone who is sensible knows the public sector pay needs to be cut ASAP and everyone has their ideas as to what those cuts need to be, and implemented etc however my question is:

What is likely to happen?

Will the government cut pay in the public sector in the budget? And if so how much? Will they cut the dole and child benefit etc?

IMHO it's very simple - €50bn out and €30bn leaves €20bn to be cut somehow. So they should cut public sector by overall by 15%, the dole by 15% etc.

And I don't see how any public servant cannot see this - there are only 2 ways to cut your wages bill -> pay cuts or redundancies. So presumably it's better to keep as many people working so pay cuts are obvious

My fear is the government won't do this - but then if they don't the situation will further deteriorate and the IMF will be in by this time next year and just slash everything 30%. If I was Cowen I'd prefer pay cuts and risk industrial action rather than lose control of my country to the IMF...

the present goverment under the gutless cowen certainly wont do this , anytime the unions threats of marches were going down like a led baloon with the general public , who intervened and invited them back in for talks , BIFFO , hes the only moron in ireland who is still wedded to the ghastly social partnership charade , any alternative goverment involving labour wont make the nesscessery cuts either for the simple reason , unions and the public sector are all labour have , you cannot completley go against you base and remain any kind of a force in politics which is why the only way this country can sort things out ( make the cuts ) is if fine gael secure an overall majority , i am not a fine gael voter per say but they are the only party in ireland who are remoteley conservative and the last thing we need in power is a tax and spend party like labour all the time or fianna fail presently

Drumpot

irish_bob wrote: »

its called a sense of entitlement , the public sector not only think we the tax payer should cough up more so as they can maintain thier levels of pay , they think we should do so without the slighest hint of protest , hence thier cries of , why are we being demonised , they would gladly bleed the tax paying stiffs dry , they believe they are better than us

Theres also the point of, if I as a private worker are taking a pay cut and I am also having to contribute more taxes to subsidise the public sector, then I am getting double whameyed . .

Boskowski

stereo_steve wrote: »

The Public sector don't pay taxes.

You've obviously done your homework so...:eek:
Tell me since when is that?

And by the way, I'm employed in the private sector, it's just that ignorance makes me furious...

ronbyrne2005

The unions announced today that 100,000 of them will oppose cut backs. Remember when you see them protest and strike that they dont ultimately care about the most vulnerable in society suffering through less hospital beds or social workers or class sizes, it's their own pocket first and foremost that they are protesting for. They want non public sector to pay higher taxes to maintain the staus quo. They know they havent a leg to stand on when wages are compared to rest of the EU and that cost of living is falling rapidly here so they will use the vulnerable for their own agenda. The logical way to maintain service levels is for service providers to be paid less allowing overall service levels to be maintained but cost reduced but that would mean less pay/pensions/overtime/expenses etc for our gilded public sector so they wont consider such a logical and equitable move.

Unions always go on about equity but what is equitable about public sector workers in secure jobs getting so much more in pay and pensions than their privates sector comrades?
They wrap the red flag around them when they are really wearing a capitalism rocks t-shirt underneath it.

boodlesdoodles

merlynthewizard wrote: »

The builders have taken a hit...most people in building are sitting at home doing nothing.
The fact is our Public Sector is paid Waaaaaay to much for what they do,there is Waaaaaaaaaaaay to much of them doing very little and the pensions they get with these wages are crazy.
It has to stop....now!
It's PS workers like you which make me think feed them to the IMF.

I'm not public service just trying to get an alternative argument out there but hey there's no arguing with regard to the public service. They're all useless and overpaid according to a lot of posters here. Funny how in the boom times that the public service jobs were the joke jobs and beneath a lot of people and now in the recession they are yet again the guys with the cushy numbers.

Its higher level Public servants that are paid too much, the public servants I know just about make the average industrial wage and now find themselves in the position where they are paying on average 51% of their earnings in levies, tax etc. Why should anyone in the public service feel guilty for having a permanent job, it was their choice to apply for that job in the first place.

ronbyrne2005

realcam wrote: »

You've obviously done your homework so...:eek:
Tell me since when is that?

And by the way, I'm employed in the private sector, it's just that ignorance makes me furious...

He means they are a net drain on the exchequer. They pay 5 billion in taxes but receive 20 back from government. The exchequer at a net level must be funded by private sector taxation.

Boskowski

I find the ignorance here unbelievable.

I give you an example.

My girlfriend is in the public sector for 23 years now. She has been laughed at in recent years when everybody else made so much more and in the years before that she has been laughed at because everybody knew that the public sector was on sh1t money. She traded that in for the job safety. And was being laughed at. Now the job safety thing actually comes into play and the same people who laughed at her then are turning into begrudgers now.

She is for 23 years there and she's doing experienced admin and management work for which she gets just a little over 30k per annum before tax. And she has taken quite a number of hits recently with the pension levy, overtime cuts etc.

And before some other ignorant bollix makes a stupid comment about the usefulness of what she's doing, she's not doing some stupid thing that nobody would know the difference if it wasn't done at all. She's doing something that would be just as necessary and useful as it is in any other private setup.

Are you seriously telling me that she is overpaid? Are you seriously telling me that with 20+ years experience anyone would work middle management in the private sector for 30k? And are you seriously telling me that she should take a 25% pay cut and be grateful for it?

If you do, you must have another thing coming...

Stark

For the record, I am not in favour of blanket cuts in the public sector. That's lazy and is no substitute for real reform. You will always have someone posting to these threads with an example of a public sector worker who is worked to the bone. The issue of course is that they are worked to the bone because the person sitting next to them is sitting on their ass doing **** all in the knowledge that they will get the same pay and rewards.

jimmmy

boodlesdoodles wrote: »

Its higher level Public servants that are paid too much, the public servants I know just about make the average industrial wage

you know what percentage of the 300,000 plus public servants ? The ones you do know, while you claim they "just about make the average industrial wage" ( although they may work less hours, have more time off, + a better pension etc ) would I guarantee earn on average less than the average industrial wage were they either ( a ) in the private sector in the 26 counties, given their work, education qualifications etc. or (b ) doing similar public sector work in N.I. or overseas in any other govt job worldwide.

Boskowski

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

He means they are a net drain on the exchequer. They pay 5 billion in taxes but receive 20 back from government. The exchequer at a net level must be funded by private sector taxation.

I guess that's like it works. They provide services that we all require and for which we pay taxes. I hope nobody will deny this fundamental principle.

I second that things overall got out of proportion. Means we either pay much more money into the system than we get out of it in services or else we have a system that provides services we simply cannot afford. But the public service worker didn't get us into that mess, did she?

And for the most of them I don't think they get half as much as everyone thinks.

ronbyrne2005

boodlesdoodles wrote: »

I'm not public service just trying to get an alternative argument out there but hey there's no arguing with regard to the public service. They're all useless and overpaid according to a lot of posters here. Funny how in the boom times that the public service jobs were the joke jobs and beneath a lot of people and now in the recession they are yet again the guys with the cushy numbers.

Its higher level Public servants that are paid too much, the public servants I know just about make the average industrial wage and now find themselves in the position where they are paying on average 51% of their earnings in levies, tax etc. Why should anyone in the public service feel guilty for having a permanent job, it was their choice to apply for that job in the first place.

I hear this often ,usually from bitter self important PS people. At the height of the boom(2004/5) i attended several tests for PS jobs and there were thousands doing test for a few dozen jobs as the jobs even during boom paid more in pay/pension/conditions than private sector. I applied for a trainee accountant job in Auditor and controller generals office as it offered a starting salary of 28k straight out of college PLUS great pension PLUS great conditions and job security. A similar job in private sector even with a big 4 accountancy practise was 25k or less with little or no pension and lots of unpaid overtime etc. A private sector job would have had to pay 45+k to make it equal to the public sector job as pension is so valuable as are conditions (less hours/career breaks/job security(try get income protection insurance nowadays!). I made it into top few % in apptititude test and got an interview and was out on a panel but decided against a career in accountancy shortly after.

boodlesdoodles

Stark wrote: »

The issue of course is that they are worked to the bone because the person sitting next to them is sitting on their ass doing **** all in the knowledge that they will get the same pay and rewards.

This doesn't happen in the private sector at all does it? That happens in all aspects of working life and its facetious to single it out as something that's specific to the public sector.

boodlesdoodles

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

I hear this often ,usually from bitter self important PS people.

Name calling isn't constructive, but thanks for pigeon holing the public service.

kippy

irish_bob wrote: »

thier are many college graduates now working in minimum wage jobs , i dont buy the arguement that because public sector workers are on average better educated , they should be paid more , a clerical officer who,s dutys dont extend beyond the ability to answer a phone , use a photo copier and post a letter doesnt need to have a college degree yet they are paid much more than a secretery who works in a solicitors office in the private sector

To be fair and honest, I amn't disagreeing with you and those weren't necessarily the points I was trying to make.
I was pointing out the potentials for disparity in sets of statistics using a relatively crude example.
I wasnt actually saying that Public sector workers should be paid more because they are better educated, cos that often isnt the case.

I was pointing out that the Public service average wages take into account, Doctors, Nurses, Teachers, Engineers/Architects of various grades, town planners, Gardai, etc etc. Skilled and well qualified people. Where as the private secot figures take account of a higher porportion of low wage earners, flipping burgers, filling petrol etc. Whether or not the people doing these jobs or not are overqualified for them is irrelevent in the "statistical" modelling, just as the qualifications of those in high end public sector jobs qualifications are irrelevant in the modelling.

A slightly more irrelevant point but the main reason why wages in certain parts of the Public Sector overtook those in Private sector was because of Public sector losing people to what were (at the time) generally better private sector jobs.
That of course is now NOT the case and many people would love a Public sector job as opportunity is what you would call limited in a lot of private sector jobs.

However, slowly but surely pay and conditions are slipping in the Public sector and will continue to do so (I've no issue with this) and you will find people re-evaluate their career choices based on that.

its called a sense of entitlement , the public sector not only think we the tax payer should cough up more so as they can maintain thier levels of pay , they think we should do so without the slighest hint of protest , hence thier cries of , why are we being demonised , they would gladly bleed the tax paying stiffs dry , they believe they are better than us

I love the way your sweeping generalisations are put forward as if the truth.
There are many Public sector workers all over the place who dont agree with what you are saying
I have best friends, sisters, brothers, relations all working in Private sector areas and surprisingly, public sector workers also pay taxes, direct and indirect. I dont want to see ANY section of those people "bled dry" so my take home stays as it is or increases.
There are people in both sectors who are extremely small minded and who have very hardened agendas and beliefs. The majority, I would hope, want to see the country improve and dragged out of this hole it is currently in.
As I mentioned countless times, no problems here with more salary cuts as long as those cuts are coupled with efficiency improvements in the public sector and a spending package of some sort to increase jobs in the private sector.




Jimmy, Have you a fetish for thanking people for being on your "side" of the
argument? It is somewhat annoying at this stage.

boodlesdoodles

jimmmy wrote: »

you know what percentage of the 300,000 plus public servants ?

Ya 100% of the people that I know in the public service, I never implied I knew the general percentages.

jimmmy

boodlesdoodles wrote: »

Ya 100% of the people that I know in the public service, I never implied I knew the general percentages.

The general point was "The ones you do know, while you claim they "just about make the average industrial wage" ( although they may work less hours, have more time off, + a better pension etc ) would I guarantee earn on average less than the average industrial wage were they either ( a ) in the private sector in the 26 counties, given their work, education qualifications etc. or (b ) doing similar public sector work in N.I. or overseas in any other govt job worldwide. "

Theboinkmaster

realcam wrote: »

I find the ignorance here unbelievable.

I give you an example.

My girlfriend is in the public sector for 23 years now. She has been laughed at in recent years when everybody else made so much more and in the years before that she has been laughed at because everybody knew that the public sector was on sh1t money. She traded that in for the job safety. And was being laughed at. Now the job safety thing actually comes into play and the same people who laughed at her then are turning into begrudgers now.

She is for 23 years there and she's doing experienced admin and management work for which she gets just a little over 30k per annum before tax. And she has taken quite a number of hits recently with the pension levy, overtime cuts etc.

And before some other ignorant bollix makes a stupid comment about the usefulness of what she's doing, she's not doing some stupid thing that nobody would know the difference if it wasn't done at all. She's doing something that would be just as necessary and useful as it is in any other private setup.

Are you seriously telling me that she is overpaid? Are you seriously telling me that with 20+ years experience anyone would work middle management in the private sector for 30k? And are you seriously telling me that she should take a 25% pay cut and be grateful for it?

If you do, you must have another thing coming...

I'm seriously telling you YES she is overpaid, when compared to what our wages levels should be at, for us to be competitive again. Tell me this - if her job was advertised at the moment for €25k could they get someone as smart and experienced to do her role? Yes of course they could.

If she doesn't want to do her job for €25k she can leave and get another one.

She should be due at least a 5-10% pay cut - those earning more should be getting 10-20% cuts.

Don't forget if she, and every other PS workers get 5-20% pay cuts the cost of living in the country will rapidly decline therefore she won't actually be less off for that %, it will be considerably lower

And before whining about pay cuts tell us how YOU would reduce the PS pay bill by €5bn?

jimmmy

While realcams girlfriend is one example , I know of lots of other examples which highlight how overpaid / underworked the p.s. are. eg two friends who have equal qualifications recently met up + were comparing their pay, pensions ( lol ) , sickies, holidays , stress , job security etc and of course the public sector person was much better off. Or the p.s. 2 vets, one in N. Ireland and one in a border county in the Republic ....one was paid double what the the other earns.

Stark

boodlesdoodles wrote: »

This doesn't happen in the private sector at all does it? That happens in all aspects of working life and its facetious to single it out as something that's specific to the public sector.

It's much easier to get rid of someone in the private sector. And pretty much any successful company these days has some sort of performance appraisal program for permanent employees. The ones that don't tend to be semi state companies and monopolies who have their inefficiencies subsidised.

ardmacha

or overseas in any other govt job worldwide.

overstating things again, as usual.

dearg lady

I'm a little disappointed that this has once again turned into an 'us vs. them' argument, though there are some people making some very fair and interesting points.

The bottom line is, the country is in trouble, savings will have to come from somewhere. In recent years wages have spiralled in public and private sector and we have lost our international competitive edge. We can all expect to be earning less in coming years.

A few points I agree with,
Cuts shouldn't be blanket cuts across the board. It will be more time consuming but it should be looked at on a more individual or section by section basis. I've worked in various state and semi state jobs(as well as private sector ) and there's no doubt there are sections of public sector where people work very hard. I've also seen sections where I was shocked by the blatant lack of work done. I joked about it to people at the time, and actually walked out of that job due to sheer boredom within weeks but it's waste of taxpayers money, pure and simple.

Another point made above I agree with is individuals bargaining for their own raises or not. Most(or maybe all?) public sector jobs are based on a salary scale. Essentially all you have to do is turn up and not completely take the p*ss to get your increment. This has quite a lot of negative results, it pushes up slaries higher than the probably should be, and leaves people with little incentive to do better at their job, except maybe around promotion time... Obviously some people take pride in their job and want to do well anyway, but I think it would serve us all better if hard work in the public sector was suitably rewarded.

I know this has been pointed out above, but another thing is looking at average wages can be deceptive, as there is such a range of services and skills contained within all of the public service and private sector the same. Comparing like for like similiar jobs within each section would give us a better idea of where the differences lie.

Final point to make, I would agree with the poster who pointed out that for a good while public sector jobs were looked down on. Pure snobbishness but it happened. Now many people who looked down on a public sector job are giving out about the benefits recieved. Most of us have been lucky enough for the last few years to have been able to pick and choose what job we wanted and the option of public v private was there. I'd ask each side not to begrudge the other just because of the path they chose to go down.

So to answer the OP!!!... I'm indirectly employed as part of the public sector and yes I would be happy to take a pay cut, well maybe not happy(!) but certainly understanding of the need. However I would like to see a general across the board look at all expenditure within the public sector to see where money can be saved.

macbane66

From a private sector worker I'd say yes some level of pay cuts need to be offered up however its the simple pure wastage in the public sector needs to be tackled. The T&C'S of public sector employement contracts need a root and branch examination.

1. Stress leave !

I had to laugh when my partner told me of a colleague of hers whos on stress leave as shes a union head and isn't happy that she now has more kids to deal with this year. So she heads off on stress leave and puts the feet up. I'm told you can take a maxmum of 1 in 4 years stress leave.
WHAT A JOKE.

2. Annual Sick days
ANOTHER JOKE !!

3. Annual holidays
Bring back to statutory 20 days

Stark

macbane66 wrote: »

2. Annual Sick days
ANOTHER JOKE !!

How many annual sick days? Any job worth its salt will give you 3 days a year without a medical note. A good private sector job will give you an indefinite amount of paid sick leave if you produce a doctor's cert.

macbane66 wrote: »

3. Annual holidays
Bring back to statutory 20 days

I don't the piss is being taken in this regard. Most people I know in the public sector get twenty something days, which is comparable to private sector jobs.

miju

damo wrote: »

So to the public sector workers on here: will you accept the pay cuts that are coming in the next budget, or would you consider a pay cut as reason for industrial action?

No I'll not accept another cut and yes another cut would be enough reason for all out action if the lower scales in the public service are touched.

There are plenty of wasters in my office on a ridiculous wages from serviing their time scratching their asses most of the day. These are the people who should be targetted for pay cuts not people on lower scales.

All this talk of pay cuts / job losses is great but in reality the same people calling for heads to roll in the Public Service will be the first to piss and moan about a lack of Garda , Doctors, medical service cuts , teachers, special needs assistants etc.

jimmmy wrote: »

Rubbish. Every survey, study etc says otherwise.

then you will have no both providing some links then

NewDubliner wrote: »

Where are the public-sector securiyty guards? Any public sector I've ever visited employs private sector security companies and guards. Like, cleaners, they're outsourced.

while there are public sector security guards there are actually public service cleaners and they are on the official payscale also

macbane66 wrote: »

3. Annual holidays
Bring back to statutory 20 days

I only have 21 annual leave days as it is.

macbane66 wrote: »

1. Stress leave !

I had to laugh when my partner told me of a colleague of hers whos on stress leave as shes a union head and isn't happy that she now has more kids to deal with this year. So she heads off on stress leave and puts the feet up. I'm told you can take a maxmum of 1 in 4 years stress leave.
WHAT A JOKE.

because life is all just a bed of roses and god forbid the person may not actually be stressed. Im on "stress leave" (theres no such thing btw). Its actually called certified sick leave by a doctor. I can't function in my role at the moment due to personal difficulties involving my kids.

Would you prefer I turned up for work and made mistakes that cost the taxpayer more money by making mistakes as my heads not in the game properly?