Public sector workers willing to take pay cuts?

dearg lady

macbane66 wrote: »

From a private sector worker I'd say yes some level of pay cuts need to be offered up however its the simple pure wastage in the public sector needs to be tackled.

Agree 100%!

macbane66 wrote: »

3. Annual holidays
Bring back to statutory 20 days

Just on the subject of hols, as I said I've worked in different sections of public sector and only in one position did I have more than the statutory 20 days so that's def not across the board. Though what would be better maybe would be to increase statutory to 25 rather than decrease for those over it?? I think hols are hugely important

erictheviking

jimmmy wrote: »

While realcams girlfriend is one example , I know of lots of other examples which highlight how overpaid / underworked the p.s. are. eg two friends who have equal qualifications recently met up + were comparing their pay, pensions ( lol ) , sickies, holidays , stress , job security etc and of course the public sector person was much better off. Or the p.s. 2 vets, one in N. Ireland and one in a border county in the Republic ....one was paid double what the the other earns.

So.....2 PS Vets from opposite sides of the border decide to meet up and compare salaries, pension benefits, Sickies:D and Stress:D.

Come on now...Its OK continually having a go at PS workers but do you think people are foolish enough to believe that story?

Double the wages...come on now! Although I have heard people on the dole here are paid 3 times more than people up North.

Even if that was true...:D Sorry...Its too funny! I've got this mental image of people meeting up and having nothing better to do in their free time than to discuss their jobs, salaries and benefits

Theboinkmaster

miju wrote: »

No I'll not accept another cut and yes another cut would be enough reason for all out action if the lower scales in the public service are touched.

There are plenty of wasters in my office on a ridiculous wages from serviing their time scratching their asses most of the day. These are the people who should be targetted for pay cuts not people on lower scales.

All this talk of pay cuts / job losses is great but in reality the same people calling for heads to roll in the Public Service will be the first to piss and moan about a lack of Garda , Doctors, medical service cuts , teachers, special needs assistants etc.



then you will have no both providing some links then



while there are public sector security guards there are actually public service cleaners and they are on the official payscale also

I love your arrogance - "accept" a cut?! you do realise those in the private sector had no option for cuts/redundancies they are simply imposed on them!

And cutting the pay of gardai, doctors etc will not affect the numbers so there will be no pissing and moaning!

You should have pay cuts imposed on you and if you don't like it fukc off and get another job - there will be someone waiting in line to take your job at the lower wage I promise you

And again I ask - what would YOU do to cut PS pay by €5bn? You suggested targeting lazy people but, whilst fair, this would be too costly & complicated to administer

Theboinkmaster

IMO there should be blanket cuts based on gross salaries:

€0-25k 5%
€25-40k 7.5%
€40-70k 10%
€70-100k 15%
€100+ 20%

or something like that, you get the idea

Stark

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

And again I ask - what would YOU do to cut PS pay by €5bn? You suggested targeting lazy people but, whilst fair, this would be too costly & complicated to administer

Tbh, that's how it needs to happen. Otherwise the productive workers will jump ship and head to the private sector, leaving the wasters hanging onto their permanent jobs for dear life, knowing they can't cut it elsewhere. This is what is already happening with the early retirement and career break schemes.

miju

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

I love your arrogance - "accept" a cut?! you do realise those in the private sector had no option for cuts/redundancies they are simply imposed on them!

it's not arrogance I can use the phrase unwilling to take a pay cut if you like the point I was making to the OPs question remains the exact same. And yes I do realise private sector people have had wage cuts / redunancies imposed on them my friends are included but they chose quicker reward over job stability.

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

And cutting the pay of gardai, doctors etc will not affect the numbers so there will be no pissing and moaning!

shows you know nothing of what your saying. Garda overtime is now practically NIL which already means less Garda on the streets. Also Garda retirements since the pension levy has risen by 120% thats alot of very experience people leaving the public service which further dwindles the numbers.

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

And again I ask - what would YOU do to cut PS pay by €5bn? You suggested targeting lazy people but, whilst fair, this would be too costly & complicated to administer

its actually not too hard to administer at all (and is relativelely inexpensive as most in the public service would know) and it's already been going on behind the closed doors of some departments for well over a year now. I know 4 roles where indentified in my office as being redundant and those people where shipped off to places that needed the staff and were made productive again.

I always find it funny that MOST of the people shouting about cuts etc in the public service have no idea how the public service is actually run and how cost savings can be made without even cutting wages. Theres already MASSIVE cost cutting & rationalisation going on throughout the public service already. I can easily calculate €75m of savings that have been made in the last year alone through simple work pratice / tender changes etc and thats just from chatting to colleagues in about 10 difference offices in the same dept.

kopfan77

gerry28 wrote: »

No i'm not willing to accept a paycut. But it would have to be a fairly large one before i'd be on the street striking. I'm not going to strike over a couple of percent.

I think this next budget will take enough from my wages without a pay cut. Property tax, carbon tax and water charges will all be in within 2 years. So I couldn't accept a paycut with those cuts coming down the track.

but the property tax, carbon tax etc, as you mentioned will affect us all....even those of us, like me, who has had no choice but to take a 15% paycut, or else lose my job. When all pricate sector workers have no choice but to take paycuts, i think that public sector should have a paycut....not to the extent to some of us....15-25%....but at the very least 5%

jimmmy

Stark wrote: »

How many annual sick days? Any job worth its salt will give you 3 days a year without a medical note. A good private sector job will give you an indefinite amount of paid sick leave if you produce a doctor's cert..

In the HSE for example, are there not something like 19 "sickies2 taken by the average employee each year ? I remember a survey / report about 6 months ago which was shocking, but cannot remember the exact figure.
The point is, it was , not surprisingly, much higher than the private sector, where people do not have jobs for life.

Stark wrote: »

I don't the piss is being taken in this regard. Most people I know in the public sector get twenty something days, which is comparable to private sector jobs.

A friend of mine gets 31 days annual leave in the public sector. Like many of her colleagues , she has had 3 foreign holidays this year.

ixoy

macbane66 wrote: »

2. Annual Sick days
ANOTHER JOKE !!

Is it? I know in the civil service, for example, that if you're sick on a Friday or a Monday you have to produce a medical cert as it's seen as being 3 days sick. Presumably it's an attempt to stop people taking long weekends, but sounds fairly strict to me.

3. Annual holidays
Bring back to statutory 20 days

Not really - they're not overly generous as a basic package. The good deal comes with the time-in-lieu option and the relatively short working day. So you can work 7.5 hours a day say for 3 weeks and be entitled to an extra day off (in the civil service anyway). Not unprecedented but it's an excellent way of getting some extra time off for relatively little effort (although you can't build these up).

MrMicra

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1015576.shtml
http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/13/public-sector-versus-private-sector-pay-update/

http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2009/07/economics-11072009-public-servants-earn.html

By the way public sector wage premiums are quite common in many countries. This is not a moral argument it is a practical argument. If Public sector wages are cut in half there will be the same level of service provision and the government deficit will also be halved (as the two are identical).

Ireland has based public finances on a model that is now revealed as unsustainable. I am aware of hard working public servants but also of lazy public servants.

As for the argument that people will leave the Public Service if wages are cut by 50%.
1 Pensioners have nowhere to go.
2 People at the end of their career who are most expensive have nowhere to go.
3 Many people live in areas where there is no other employer.

An exodus from the Public Service will further reduce the wage bill.


“Health cuts hurt the old, the sick and the handicapped.” They sure do

Tipp Man

dearg lady wrote: »

Agree 100%!




Just on the subject of hols, as I said I've worked in different sections of public sector and only in one position did I have more than the statutory 20 days so that's def not across the board. Though what would be better maybe would be to increase statutory to 25 rather than decrease for those over it?? I think hols are hugely important

How many days holidays have teachers got?? Well in excess of 100 days, and to top it all off when they are in work, their contact hours with kids is only 22 hours, thats classed as a full time job. how can they be serious?? And how and why do people tolerate this??

Secondary that is

dearg lady

jimmmy wrote: »

In the HSE for example, are there not something like 19 "sickies2 taken by the average employee each year ? I remember a survey / report about 6 months ago which was shocking, but cannot remember the exact figure.
The point is, it was , not surprisingly, much higher than the private sector, where people do not have jobs for life.

jimmmy with all due respect, unless you can give a link to the report no one's gonna believe that! especially as you're not even sure of the number yourself. I would've thought anyway(i stand to be corrected on this) that most health workers would have higher incidences of sick days for two main reasons,
1.More contact with sick people than the average person so more likely to catch something.
2.More likely to be discouraged from coming to work with any illness no matter how small as it would spread rapidly in their particular work environment.

jimmmy wrote: »

A friend of mine gets 31 days annual leave in the public sector. Like many of her colleagues , she has had 3 foreign holidays this year.

again, this is not the case across the board, but I don't know the actual stats.

ParkRunner

As a civil servant what annoys me is that this is all being played out in the media through speculation and scaremongering. Brian Cowen and Colm McCarthy saying public sector pay needs to be cut means a huge cutback in personal expenditure right throughout the economy thus dragging the private sector down further.

I would much rather they just came out and said this is what you need to know is going to happen so at least then we can all plan to some degree, whereas all we have now is that there may/may not be paycuts. How much cuts will be if they do occur we can only guess. 3 months of very conservative personal expenditure by public sector workers is ahead!

dearg lady

Tipp Man wrote: »

How many days holidays have teachers got?? Well in excess of 100 days, and to top it all off when they are in work, their contact hours with kids is only 22 hours, thats classed as a full time job. how can they be serious?? And how and why do people tolerate this??

I can't speak for teachers as I'm not one, nor do I know any, but you must realise that this is an unusual set up and not the same in all public sector jobs!

Anyways, I'll say the same thing to you as I say to anyone who throws that point at teachers....why not become one? I wouldn't do it even with those conditions!

ronbyrne2005

We just have to give the public sector 15billion instead of 20billion and allow the managers in there along with unions decide how to keep services at same level on that lower sum. The good workers would turn on the wasters in there quick enough. We wer only pay 15billion in pay earlier in this decade and i dont remember public sector crying penury back then so in a CRISIS like we have now they should be able to determine how to spend the 15billion rather than 20billion.

jimmmy

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

We just have to give the public sector 15billion instead of 20billion and allow the managers in there along with unions decide how to keep services at same level on that lower sum. The good workers would turn on the wasters in there quick enough. We wer only pay 15billion in pay earlier in this decade and i dont remember public sector crying penury back then so in a CRISIS like we have now they should be able to determine how to spend the 15billion rather than 20billion.

not a bad suggestion, given the state of the countries finances.

Tipp Man

dearg lady wrote: »

I can't speak for teachers as I'm not one, nor do I know any, but you must realise that this is an unusual set up and not the same in all public sector jobs!

Anyways, I'll say the same thing to you as I say to anyone who throws that point at teachers....why not become one? I wouldn't do it even with those conditions!

I'm not having a go at you Dearg lady just highlighting that they have an incomprehensible amount of holidays, how can that be justified. It can't is the simple answer

I don't want to become a teacher is the simple reason for me, that doesn't mean that i should have to pay more in tax to keep them in an overpaid job for the amount of work they do

ardmacha

Like many of her colleagues , she has had 3 foreign holidays this year.

Over 20m people a year travel through Dublin airport, not all of these work in the public service.

jimmmy

miju wrote: »

Im on "stress leave" (theres no such thing btw). Its actually called certified sick leave by a doctor. I can't function in my role at the moment due to personal difficulties involving my kids.

I hope your problems / personal difficulties get solved soon.

miju wrote: »

Would you prefer I turned up for work and made mistakes that cost the taxpayer more money by making mistakes as my heads not in the game properly?

No, I would prefer you turned up for work and not made mistakes , or else take annual leave / unpaid leave like most people in the private sector / most self-employed have to do when they have "personal difficulties involving their kids". Most people from around the world work this way.

dearg lady

Tipp Man wrote: »

I'm not having a go at you Dearg lady just highlighting that they have an incomprehensible amount of holidays, how can that be justified. It can't is the simple answer

I don't want to become a teacher is the simple reason for me, that doesn't mean that i should have to pay more in tax to keep them in an overpaid job for the amount of work they do

OK, fair nuff, see what ya mean. Now I remember hearing before that teachers are only paid based on the say 9 months they work, but it is spread out over the year just to make things easier, I would if there's any truth in that, or is it complete nonsense. I totally agree though, that cuts have to be made in a lot of areas, I wouldn't, and simply couldn't disagree with that. Unfortunately for me I only get the 20 days, would be nice to have more eh?!

ParkRunner

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

We just have to give the public sector 15billion instead of 20billion and allow the managers in there along with unions decide how to keep services at same level on that lower sum. The good workers would turn on the wasters in there quick enough. We wer only pay 15billion in pay earlier in this decade and i dont remember public sector crying penury back then so in a CRISIS like we have now they should be able to determine how to spend the 15billion rather than 20billion.

Do the same with social welfare and those in genuine need of social welfare, including the recently made unemployed, can fight it out with the fradudsters and long-term unemployed!

sligo_dave

isn't it great that we live in times where hind-sight is the master. :rolleyes:
as a private sector worker i envy those employed in the public sector because they have safe jobs. when i came into the workplace 7years ago it was suggested that i get a job in public sector and once i looked through the options i realised i could make more money in the private sector.
My mistake i now know, and i have been trying to get into the public service for 2 years now even if it means less money.

so why dont all those bitter people in the private sector give it a rest. the public service was screaming out for staff years ago, where were you then?? it was the private sector that fuelled the boom, why should those who chose carreer over money now suffer by paying for a recession caused by those paid far more for years.

ronbyrne2005

sligo_dave wrote: »

isn't it great that we live in times where hind-sight is the master. :rolleyes:
as a private sector worker i envy those employed in the public sector because they have safe jobs. when i came into the workplace 7years ago it was suggested that i get a job in public sector and once i looked through the options i realised i could make more money in the private sector.
My mistake i now know, and i have been trying to get into the public service for 2 years now even if it means less money.

so why dont all those bitter people in the private sector give it a rest. the public service was screaming out for staff years ago, where were you then?? it was the private sector that fuelled the boom, why should those who chose carreer over money now suffer by paying for a recession caused by those paid far more for years.

HA, feel compelled to join to defend the public sector Dave? Im susupicious that this is your first post.

murf313

merlynthewizard wrote: »

The builders have taken a hit...most people in building are sitting at home doing nothing.
The fact is our Public Sector is paid Waaaaaay to much for what they do,there is Waaaaaaaaaaaay to much of them doing very little and the pensions they get with these wages are crazy.
It has to stop....now!
It's PS workers like you which make me think feed them to the IMF.

yeah but the builders were laughing all the way to the bank in the boom years.
now im just going to count all the lovely money i got paid today for doing nothing all week and dream about my lovely free pension:o

sligo_dave

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

HA, feel compelled to join to defend the public sector Dave? Im susupicious that this is your first post.

nothing to be suspicious about, just feels like so many people jump on a bandwagon to have a go at the easier targets which really annoys me. if there was no public service where would the country be?
no teachers/gardai/doctors/nurses/no unemployment benefit, pensions or any other government financial supports as there would be nboby to process the payments.

dvpower

sligo_dave wrote: »

it was the private sector that fuelled the boom, why should those who chose carreer over money now suffer by paying for a recession caused by those paid far more for years.

Yet another poster that just quite get it.

It doesn't matter who fuelled the boom. It doesn't matter who caused the bust.

What matters is that we cannot now afford the cost of the public service that we have. Its not the fault of public servants but it is their problem.

Fairness doesn't come into it. Its not fair that my local garage had to let go some car salesmen, but since no one is buying cars these days, they had to be made redundant. It not fair that we don't have enough money to pay for the current level of public services, but that's where we find ourselves.

sligo_dave

dvpower wrote: »

Yet another poster that just quite get it.

It doesn't matter who fuelled the boom. It doesn't matter who caused the bust.

What matters is that we cannot now afford the cost of the public service that we have. Its not the fault of public servants but it is their problem.

Fairness doesn't come into it. Its not fair that my local garage had to let go some car salesmen, but since no one is buying cars these days, they had to be made redundant. It not fair that we don't have enough money to pay for the current level of public services, but that's where we find ourselves.

fair points and cant disagree with you. just feel that some public servants at the lower end will suffer too much ie those on under30k. why dont the government show leadership and cut their own wage to equal that of similar countries instead o costing the wage bill a fortune??

Tipp Man

dearg lady wrote: »

OK, fair nuff, see what ya mean. Now I remember hearing before that teachers are only paid based on the say 9 months they work, but it is spread out over the year just to make things easier, I would if there's any truth in that, or is it complete nonsense. I totally agree though, that cuts have to be made in a lot of areas, I wouldn't, and simply couldn't disagree with that. Unfortunately for me I only get the 20 days, would be nice to have more eh?!

Thats just saying how many different ways are there to skin a cat (admittedly a friend of mine who got a 9 month contract was offered to be paid the same amount over 12 months but for full time its a load of rubbish to be honest as they are paid so much now)

Looking closer at a teachers salary, at point 10 on their scale they earn 46.5k (10 years service), added to that you have 1,300 for passing their HDip (can you teach without it??) and 5,177 for getting their degree (likewise can you teach without 1) a lot nowadays will have masters (and any teacher worth his salt will have done one part time over the last few years seen as though it adds 5,177 to your pay check EVERY year). Ignoring masters thats a total of just under 53k. Now lets work out their teaching hours, i think they work 34 weeks a year (stand to be corrected but not much more) at 22 hours a week, thats a total hours of 748 hours a year giving an average rate of EUR 71 per hour and a lot more as you go up the salary scale, which wait for it, is NOT based on your performance, you go up every year regardless of how poorly you have taught, i honestly can't fathom how people aren't up in arms about this.

Now seriously can anybody honestly say that any teacher in the world is worth EUR 71 per hour, its not bloody brain surgery or nuclear physics. And to top it all off they get paid extra for exam supervision and correction, walking the yards at lunch etc etc. How are these item NOT part of their job, its a disgrace. This country has lost the run of itself and until issues like this are brought back into the real world we are in for a rough time for a long time

Tipp Man

sligo_dave wrote: »

it was the private sector that fuelled the boom, why should those who chose carreer over money now suffer by paying for a recession caused by those paid far more for years.

What a load of rubbish, the huge increases in public sector wages coupled with the large increase in public sector numbers had as much to do with the boom as anything, probably more than most things in fact as they could borrow safe in the knowledge they had the ultimate job security. Are you seriously trying to say that the public sector didn't contribute??

sligo_dave

Tipp Man wrote: »

What a load of rubbish, the huge increases in public sector wages coupled with the large increase in public sector numbers had as much to do with the boom as anything, probably more than most things in fact as they could borrow safe in the knowledge they had the ultimate job security. Are you seriously trying to say that the public sector didn't contribute??

did public sector workers at the bottom end of the pay scale contribute that much? no they didnt but maybe those that are there many years on a very healthy wage did. im not saying all public servants can be viewed the same and my apologies if thats the impression i have given. those at higher pay levels should be brought in line with privat sector but how can you justify taxing someone 10% on €400 - €500 per week?