Public sector workers willing to take pay cuts?

dvpower

sligo_dave wrote: »

fair points and cant disagree with you. just feel that some public servants at the lower end will suffer too much ie those on under30k. why dont the government show leadership and cut their own wage to equal that of similar countries instead o costing the wage bill a fortune??

Of course the government should bring their own salaries/allowances into line, but this is a token gesture; its not going to save real money.

I agree that lower paid public servants shouldn't bear the brunt of cuts, although I do think there needs to be cuts both in numbers and payscales. From my experience of the CS, there is great scope for efficiency improvements. There are a lot of daft demarkation issues in the CS that need to be done away with and some silly allowances that look terrible from the public perception.

Already we've had the CPSU in DSW looking for temporary promotions / acting up allowances for staff when the department tried to introduce a fast track claim decisions process, so the signs are not good. Its this kind of messing that makes me suspect that the PS unions don't or wont recognise the extent of the problem that the country is in.

newname

a clerical officer who,s dutys dont extend beyond the ability to answer a phone , use a photo copier and post a letter

Irish bob you really don't have clue what you are talking about with the above statement (and you've used it before is another post).

I don't know a single clerical officer who does as limited a job as you describe -it only goes to show your contempt for PS staff.


On another point Dr James McDaid was on Highland radio this morning saying he doesn't think it would be such a bad idea if the IMF were brought in.

Tipp Man

sligo_dave wrote: »

did public sector workers at the bottom end of the pay scale contribute that much? no they didnt but maybe those that are there many years on a very healthy wage did. im not saying all public servants can be viewed the same and my apologies if thats the impression i have given. those at higher pay levels should be brought in line with privat sector but how can you justify taxing someone 10% on €400 - €500 per week?

No the lowest paid didn't cause the boom but how many are there on the lowest pay scales?? It's easy to blame the big earners in public service(god knows they are earning way above the odds) but your average teacher, nurse, Garda Civil servant is also on too much money and there is a huge number of these, There are what 350,000 people paid by the government and each and every 1 of them are over paid no matter what their level is. that is the fact of the matter that urgently needs to be addressed and until it is then by god the private sector are more than entitled to let their feelings known, in fact the private sector is being too quite, thats the bloody problem

miju

Tipp Man wrote: »

How many days holidays have teachers got?? Well in excess of 100 days, and to top it all off when they are in work, their contact hours with kids is only 22 hours, thats classed as a full time job. how can they be serious?? And how and why do people tolerate this??

actually technically teachers have no annual leave due to the fact that they get 3 months off each year but if thats an issue with you then mke them earn their crust by never giving the kids the summer off.

Tipp Man

miju wrote: »

actually technically teachers have no annual leave due to the fact that they get 3 months off each year but if thats an issue with you then mke them earn their crust by never giving the kids the summer off.

Ohh is the 100 days not enough "ANNUAL" leave

Look you can't justify them getting paid extra to correct and supervise the exams or are you seriously trying to??

Alos don't the get something like 5 or 7 days during the school year that they can take as personal days??

FlutterinBantam

Oh dear it's wearisome.


56 bn out 33bn in... tax at saturation point.:eek:

Where in the name of blue fook do people think the money is going to come from.



Das roiatt.... cost cutting.... dats the oooooooooooooooonly place:rolleyes:

Tipp Man

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Oh dear it's wearisome.


56 bn out 33bn in... tax at saturation point.:eek:

Where in the name of blue fook do people think the money is going to come from.



Das roiatt.... cost cutting.... dats the oooooooooooooooonly place:rolleyes:

Your dead right, i'd be very worried though how this cost cutting is going to go down with all the public servants and the unions, this country could be at a standstill and held hostage after the next budget.

also they will plan on bringing that 33bn in up unfortunately, taxes up in next budget, its almost a certainity

miju

Tipp Man wrote: »

Ohh is the 100 days not enough "ANNUAL" leave

Look you can't justify them getting paid extra to correct and supervise the exams or are you seriously trying to??

Alos don't the get something like 5 or 7 days during the school year that they can take as personal days??

no I don't think they should be paid extra nor did I try to say they should or even try to defend that. In fact seeing as how they are on their 3 months off with nothing to do theres nice big cost saving right there (see it's easy LOL)

While they do get personal days it's my understanding that its SERIOUSLY frowned upon to take them.

ParkRunner

Tipp Man wrote: »

Your dead right, i'd be very worried though how this cost cutting is going to go down with all the public servants and the unions, this country could be at a standstill and held hostage after the next budget.

also they will plan on bringing that 33bn in up unfortunately, taxes up in next budget, its almost a certainity

Hopefully the 33bn will start to rise naturally through job creation in the private sector. There is only so far you can cut expenditure and pump billions into the banks before those sitting idle on the dole will have to play their entrepreneurial part

Lemming

EF wrote: »

Hopefully the 33bn will start to rise naturally through job creation in the private sector. There is only so far you can cut expenditure and pump billions into the banks before those sitting idle on the dole will have to play their entrepreneurial part

That has to be a troll. But assuming for a second that it's not; you want to pin €33bn and the bankruptcy of the state on the word "hopefully", attaching it to the sector that both keeps this country afloat in exchequer intake and keeps you paid, and is currently being decimated on the jobs front to the tune of close to 500,000 excluding those self-employed who are unable to claim (the actual figure I suspect is far more frightening than the current figure.)? The sector that isn't just bleeding and battered, but is haemmoraging.

I see.

There's an expression for that particular sort of thinking, and it's called "cloud-cuckoo land", "out of touch with reality", among other less flattering terms.

ParkRunner

Lemming wrote: »

That has to be a troll. But assuming for a second that it's not; you want to pin €33bn and the bankruptcy of the state on the word "hopefully", attaching it to the sector that both keeps this country afloat in exchequer intake and keeps you paid, and is currently being decimated on the jobs front to the tune of close to 500,000 excluding those self-employed who are unable to claim (the actual figure I suspect is far more frightening than the current figure.)? The sector that isn't just bleeding and battered, but is haemmoraging.

I see.

There's an expression for that particular sort of thinking, and it's called "cloud-cuckoo land", "out of touch with reality", among other less flattering terms.

Not trolling at all, I realise all too well what is going on out there and I fully accept that cuts have to be made in expenditure. It just seems remarkable that the private sector was in such a position in the first place to require the shedding of approx 250k jobs in such a short space of time! Surely there is scope there for job creation from all those, some highly skilled people, who have recently been made unemployed

Boskowski

jimmmy wrote: »

While realcams girlfriend is one example , I know of lots of other examples which highlight how overpaid / underworked the p.s. are. eg two friends who have equal qualifications recently met up + were comparing their pay, pensions ( lol ) , sickies, holidays , stress , job security etc and of course the public sector person was much better off. Or the p.s. 2 vets, one in N. Ireland and one in a border county in the Republic ....one was paid double what the the other earns.

The trouble is that I simply don't agree with all PS people being tarred with the same brush. There is loads of PS employees on or below the average industrial wage and they're certainly pulling their weight.

What I do agree with is that some sectors in the PS are overpaid. Look at the health sector, nurses start at thirty something, medical consultants are advertised around the 200k mark!!! Teachers get a fair whack, starting at over 30k with - what - 3-4 months off every year. In the private sector such a long holiday would be worth alone 10k+ if not more. That puts a lot of teachers with a few years on their belt into the 60k+, 70k+ or more bracket.

But your average PS worker fixing the roof on your council estate house, processing your parking fine or fixing your pothole wouldn't fall into that category.

Also you mustn't forget that form the 20 billion roughly 75% goes into health and education at more less equal shares. The people actually running this country cost us roughly 13% of these 20 billion. Health is the insane black hole IMHO. The health bill actually trebled in the last decade (more or less), but did the service improve at all?

One other thing I would concede is that in the PS we have probably inadequate performance evaluation processes in place. People getting promoted and increases for doing time effectively.

But please spare me the all PS workers are useless and must be cut by 25% song. Because it's nonsense.

Lemming

EF wrote: »

It just seems remarkable that the private sector was in such a position in the first place to require the shedding of approx 250k jobs in such a short space of time!

Evidently the live register and around 500,000 people (and their affected families) will beg to differ with your disbelief. Indeed, I was one of them for a while. Welcome to economics and recessions/depressions.

Surely there is scope there for job creation from all those, some highly skilled people, who have recently been made unemployed

One /minor/ flaw in your thinking there. Who has the money? Can't get a loan because the banks aren't giving, don't have money to secure a loan because you're unemployed, and even if you did, nobody's spending money (which is who company income take is down, employees are getting let go, companies are failing, and also why few are recruiting).

The scope is there, the market is in such a sh*t state that few can get into it never mind survive in it.

irish_bob

newname wrote: »

Irish bob you really don't have clue what you are talking about with the above statement (and you've used it before is another post).

I don't know a single clerical officer who does as limited a job as you describe -it only goes to show your contempt for PS staff.


On another point Dr James McDaid was on Highland radio this morning saying he doesn't think it would be such a bad idea if the IMF were brought in.

jim mc daid gave a very honest and open interview on national radio yesterday , he delivered some home truths about how social partnership had taken over the country in the last few years and how this was at the heart of many of our problems

i stand by what i said about the clerical officers

Count Dooku

realcam wrote: »

But please spare me the all PS workers are useless and must be cut by 25% song. Because it's nonsense.

Not all PS workers are useless, but I am more the sure that it possible to cut numbers of PS workers by 25% and will not affect much public.

irish_bob

police in ireland earn double what they do in australia , they earn at least 30% more than they do in the uk which is a richer country than us btw

teachers in ireland earn 75% more than thier counterparts in finland which is also a richer and more expensive country than us btw , they also earn more than 25% more than in the uk

nurses in ireland earn at least 30% more than in the uk
consultants in germany earn half what they earn in ireland , in fact a doctor in germany earns the same as a nurse in ireland
europes sickest economy has europes highest paid nurses teachers and police plus consulants , the arguement about the cost of living is now out of date , cut wages in the public sector and also reduce the level of wellfare and watch the cost of living fall sharply and quickly , the market unlike the state responds quickly to the level of purchasing power of the people but wages have to fall 1st , the cost of living cannot fall 1st , its is simply the way of things


YES TO LISBON , NO TO NAMA

ParkRunner

Lemming wrote: »

Evidently the live register and around 500,000 people (and their affected families) will beg to differ with your disbelief. Indeed, I was one of them for a while. Welcome to economics and recessions/depressions.



One /minor/ flaw in your thinking there. Who has the money? Can't get a loan because the banks aren't giving, don't have money to secure a loan because you're unemployed, and even if you did, nobody's spending money (which is who company income take is down, employees are getting let go, companies are failing, and also why few are recruiting).

The scope is there, the market is in such a sh*t state that few can get into it never mind survive in it.

So there's the biggest problem really, the banks arent lending! And with the ongoing reduction of wages across the economy in both the public and private sector we are at a great risk of a deflationary spiral going out of control. Even if public sector wages are slashed by 25% any savings in expenditure are likely to be pumped into the banks, who are showing a great reluctance to lend, or the money will need to be spent on the unproductive social welfare bill. There needs to be less emphasis on public sector pay, and more emphasis on a balanced solution to the problems in the economy!

podge3

irish_bob wrote: »

police in ireland earn double what they do in australia

Thats scandalous :rolleyes:

Lets see, the average Joe Garda is probably on about €45K before he does any overtime. Lets cut his pay by 50% - give him €22,500 and let him lump it or like it.

But hang on a minute - he can get €10k on the dole and another €5k rent allowance plus all the other freebees, which would easily bring him up to €22.5K

So he is faced with going to work for 40 hours a week and dealing with all the job throws at him or staying at home and scratching his ar$e for more or less the same income. Hmmm difficult decision......

Its about time we all got real in this country i.e. we are broke. In addition to PS paycuts, the social welfare system needs to be completely overhauled. I'm sick and tired of hearing about the "needy" in our society. The real needy in our society are completely overlooked in the current system.

The commission on taxation will only add to the incentive to be a sponger i.e. most of the new taxes will not apply to those who don't bother their arse to earn a living.

The recently unemployed i.e. the 250,000 individuals who have lost their jobs in the past 18 months also fare badly. Why should they only get the same as a layabout who has never worked??? The whole system is crazy.

irish_bob

podge3 wrote: »

Thats scandalous :rolleyes:

Lets see, the average Joe Garda is probably on about €45K before he does any overtime. Lets cut his pay by 50% - give him €22,500 and let him lump it or like it.

But hang on a minute - he can get €10k on the dole and another €5k rent allowance plus all the other freebees, which would easily bring him up to €22.5K

So he is faced with going to work for 40 hours a week and dealing with all the job throws at him or staying at home and scratching his ar$e for more or less the same income. Hmmm difficult decision......

Its about time we all got real in this country i.e. we are broke. In addition to PS paycuts, the social welfare system needs to be completely overhauled. I'm sick and tired of hearing about the "needy" in our society. The real needy in our society are completely overlooked in the current system.

The commission on taxation will only add to the incentive to be a sponger i.e. most of the new taxes will not apply to those who don't bother their arse to earn a living.


the average garda pre pension levys earlier this year was earning in excess of 1100 per week before over time


YES TO LISBON , NO TO NAMA
The recently unemployed i.e. the 250,000 individuals who have lost their jobs in the past 18 months also fare badly. Why should they only get the same as a layabout who has never worked??? The whole system is crazy.

the average garda pre pension levys earlier this year was earning in excess of 1100 per week before over time


YES TO LISBON , NO TO NAMA

irish_bob

podge3 wrote: »

Thats scandalous :rolleyes:

Lets see, the average Joe Garda is probably on about €45K before he does any overtime. Lets cut his pay by 50% - give him €22,500 and let him lump it or like it.

But hang on a minute - he can get €10k on the dole and another €5k rent allowance plus all the other freebees, which would easily bring him up to €22.5K

So he is faced with going to work for 40 hours a week and dealing with all the job throws at him or staying at home and scratching his ar$e for more or less the same income. Hmmm difficult decision......

Its about time we all got real in this country i.e. we are broke. In addition to PS paycuts, the social welfare system needs to be completely overhauled. I'm sick and tired of hearing about the "needy" in our society. The real needy in our society are completely overlooked in the current system.

The commission on taxation will only add to the incentive to be a sponger i.e. most of the new taxes will not apply to those who don't bother their arse to earn a living.

The recently unemployed i.e. the 250,000 individuals who have lost their jobs in the past 18 months also fare badly. Why should they only get the same as a layabout who has never worked??? The whole system is crazy.

this country is no longer one of the wealthiest countries in the eu and only gained that title due to the fact that we had a one off property boom and during that time debt was seen as equal to wealth

we are no longer as wealthy as the uk , netherlands , belguim or scandanavian countries yet we pay our police , nurses , doctors , judges and of course politicans way more than any of theese richer countries , the cost of living will come down in this country for the simple reason that it has to , the market is fast to respond to reductions in the purshasing power of the people and and if wages are cut and so too wellfare , the cost of living will follow suit , as i said , it simply has to , you cant sell 10 dollar cups of coffee in downtown lagos for the simple reason that the average nigerian cant afford it , the same principal applies here , wages and wellfare must fall , this does not mean that people wont be able to afford essential services however , the country needs to go back in time about 10 years in terms of wages , when that happens , houses at four times the average industrial wage will follow and so too everything else


YES TO LISBON , NO TO NAMA

PoleStar

Reality check

Most public sector workers have taken a pay cut.

I am one of those public sector workers.

In my last pay packet, my total deductions including PRSI, pension levy, PAYE, and income levy amounted to wait for it:

55% of my pre tax pay.

IE for every cent I earn I get 45 cent.

Of course I do realise that such a cut in my salary is necessary to fund the mess that the private sector got us all into (a mess fuelled by greedy developers and banker) and yes I do realise that such a cut is necessary to prop up the banks and ensure their CEO's still get their massive basic salaries AND wait for it PERFORMANCE BONUSES!!!!!

By the way, if the the bonuses that top bankers get ARE based on performance, shouldnt actually they be getting NEGATIVE bonuses eg hey BOI chief, we are up the proverbial creek so instead of giving you a bonus, not only are we not giving you any bonus, but we are cutting your salary.

podge3

irish_bob wrote: »

the average garda pre pension levys earlier this year was earning in excess of 1100 per week before over time

Ah yes, that old chestnut of averages :rolleyes:

The actual facts are as follows: the Garda pay scale starts at about €27K and rises to about €48.5 K after 17 years. There are other allowances also, so lets round up the figures to €31K to €52K. Those are the facts.

Yous average figure includes all ranks - i.e. the managerial levels who got huge increases in benchmarking i.e 12%-14% IIRC. The average Joe Garda does not earn in excess of 1100 per week before over time.

Drumpot

podge3 wrote: »

Ah yes, that old chestnut of averages :rolleyes:

The actual facts are as follows: the Garda pay scale starts at about €27K and rises to about €48.5 K after 17 years. There are other allowances also, so lets round up the figures to €31K to €52K. Those are the facts.

Yous average figure includes all ranks - i.e. the managerial levels who got huge increases in benchmarking i.e 12%-14% IIRC. The average Joe Garda does not earn in excess of 1100 per week before over time.

Personally I believe the guarda deserve to be paid above the industrial average as their job is an occupational hazzard. .

That said, I know a guarda who has 4 children, a wife (not working) and 3 mortgages and they are in their very early 30's. . . When I was away on a weekend with them a couple of years ago, they could afford a pair of tracksuit bottoms for £200 sterling without thinking about it . . Im sorry, this does not sound like somebody on anything less then 50k!

Thats only one example and I dont put this down as representing the whole force . .

Every "general" example used in these public service debates can be skewered to make a point. .

The only important point is that pay rises were given when the country could afford them, pay cuts need to be made because the country cannot afford it. Im not saying a blanket paycut. Perhaps something like the first €20,000 or so should not be touched or taxed. Then the higher up the payscale the more the sacrifice.

podge3

Drumpot wrote: »

The only important point is that pay rises were given when the country could afford them, pay cuts need to be made because the country cannot afford it.

Indeed.

Benchmarking should have been reversed instead of the pensions levy. Lower ranks in the PS and CS got very little (I think about 5/6%) whereas the fat cats got 12/14% (and possibly higher - can't recall). However, this would be a pay cut and couldn't be done for legal reasons or some other horse$hite.

I'm sick and tired of hearing that benchmarking ruined the country. It cost something €1.2 billion per annum IIRC and this has now been removed with the pensions levy.

As we are currently running a deficit of around €20 billion, its small beans.

zootroid

Theres a lot of talk about public sector vs private sector, we didn't cause the recession, its the politicians / bankers / property developers that should pay etc.

These arguments are irrelevant!

The simple fact of the matter is the country is broke, and the books need to be balanced. Savings can realistically come from 2 areas: social welfare, and lowering the wage bill of the public sector (either by redundancies, or pay cuts, or both)

In my opinion it has to come from both social welfare reductions and the public sector. The country is in the sh!t, borrowing huge sums of money just to run the country every day, so something has to give.

FGR

I knew it. I knew they'd go specifically after the public sector once more. We're simply a scapegoat to the Government and, quite frankly, it's become an 'us vs them' situation.

Which is exactly what the Government wanted.

I'm also taking home approximately 15% less than I was prior to levies and the Government can still be in glee saying our 'gross salary' is higher than in other countries.

Yet - do those countries include the pension levy? No. Of course not. That special little 'extra' seems to be omitted only when it suits.

It's bothersome that people think I can go out and afford a BMW and have two or three mortgages. No. I don't. I can barely afford my apartment's rent and a little extra to pay off my credit card.

All in the meantime whilst I drive a 99 reg 1.3 litre car.

If I have to take another hit - it better be a fair one ie. via tax increases where everyone pays their share.

I don't want to be the scape goat again simply because I chose a career with good security. It's not my fault those in the private sector decided not to.

Lockstep

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

At the height of the boom(2004/5) i attended several tests for PS jobs and there were thousands doing test for a few dozen jobs as the jobs even during boom paid more in pay/pension/conditions than private sector.

I was working in a bookshop around that time and we were selling those careers guidance books for leaving cert students.

The parts on the civil service was warning along the lines that "as the celtic tiger is fading, these jobs are increasingly hard to come by" etc.
WOuldn't surprise me that there was so much competition for those jobs when even the schoolbooks were warning that they were competitive.

I always thought the boom years for the Celtic Tiger was the late 90s.


Also, there seems to be a lot of examples in this thread relying on "I've a friend who...."
I'm always suspicious of them.

jank

PoleStar wrote: »

Reality check

Most public sector workers have taken a pay cut.....

IE for every cent I earn I get 45 cent.....

LOL WOW! I know that the PS have it handy but money for nothing?:pac:

MrMicra

miju wrote: »

actually technically teachers have no annual leave due to the fact that they get 3 months off each year but if thats an issue with you then mke them earn their crust by never giving the kids the summer off.

That isn't accurate, teachers have a small amount of leave that can be taken in the ordinary way.
As I understand it teachers do not get three months off a year they work for 9 months of the year only and their pay for those nine months is paid out over the year.

Incidentally if that is the case the annualised salary of a newly qualified primary school teacher is just over €40,000. Provided that the person is hard working and commited to their job this seems reasonable to me.

eirmail

ForegoneReality wrote: »

I don't want to be the scape goat again simply because I chose a career with good security. It's not my fault those in the private sector decided not to.

Public sector jobs don't have that good job security any more.