Public sector workers willing to take pay cuts?

Drumpot

Some people are purposely making this into a public v private debate to suit their own agenda's . . Both sides are making valid and irrelevant points.

Im just wondering why any P.S. says that by suggesting there should be paycuts/cost reductions in the Public service, why this is scapegoating this area ?

People in the private sector are paying heavily in paycuts and job losses already. By employers reducing their wages, the country is not benefiting directly (reduced VAT from purchases and it doesnt add to our tax income).

The country cannot afford a 20billion defecit every year so money has to be saved. In any walk of life, when you are in financial trouble you look at whereyour biggest expenses are and where you can make your bigger savings.

I cant speak for others, but when I suggest that public servants should take a pay cut, I dont necessarily believe it should be everybody. Those on the lower incomes should be protected more then those on higher incomes. We shouldnt be afraid of losing those on higher incomes as this country has plenty of highly qualified, highly motivated unemployed people to take their very cushdie numbers. Theres the obvious cost cutting excercise of trimming the fat, many jobs for people who simply do fk all.


For anybody saying that the public service is being scapegoated . . Without coming out with the usual B.S about how its not your fault (as if everybody in the Private sector drove us into this recession) or how you work hard for your money (which suggests that those in the private service dont!) . . What exactly do you propose we do to shore up the €20 billion defecit ? Because thats the ONLY important issue in this specific discussion on public service paycuts. . EVERYBODY IN THIS COUNTRY (T.D's ASIDE) ARE GOING TO HAVE TO WORK HARDER FOR LESS, THIS IS NOT LIMITED TO PUBLIC SERVANTS.

MrMicra

PoleStar wrote: »

Most public sector workers have taken a pay cut.
I am one of those public sector workers.
In my last pay packet, my total deductions including PRSI, pension levy, PAYE, and income levy amounted to wait for it:
55% of my pre tax pay.
IE for every cent I earn I get 45 cent.

This is not a pay cut. You are simply paying your taxes as we all do and a further symbolic amount to reflect the very good pensions to which public sector workers are entitled.

All workers have money deducted from their wages. What is needed to help stabilise the public finances are very severe and overt pay cuts for civil and public servants on the order of 50%. Of course were this to happen the pension levy could be abolished.

The main source of government revenue that paid for public sector wages during the boom were taxes on consumption. These no longer provide the revenue that they once did and at any rate should be cut as part of this economic readjustment.

I accept that many civil and public servants are hardworking and efficient. However the ability to pay their wages no longr exists.

MrMicra

podge3 wrote: »

Lets see, the average Joe Garda is probably on about €45K before he does any overtime. Lets cut his pay by 50% - give him €22,500 and let him lump it or like it.
But hang on a minute - he can get €10k on the dole and another €5k rent allowance plus all the other freebees, which would easily bring him up to €22.5K

You are still €7.5K out by the way. €12.5K when one considers that all Gardai are paid a rent supplement of about €5K per annum. If Gardai earned €30K would there no longer be a queue of people wanting the job? They select about 1 applicant in 10 and as far as I can see Ireland isn't conspuciously well policed.

podge3 wrote: »

Its about time we all got real in this country i.e. we are broke. In addition to PS paycuts, the social welfare system needs to be completely overhauled. I'm sick and tired of hearing about the "needy" in our society. The real needy in our society are completely overlooked in the current system.
The commission on taxation will only add to the incentive to be a sponger i.e. most of the new taxes will not apply to those who don't bother their arse to earn a living.

It is in the nature of things that the rich pay more tax than the poor. But I agree that social welfare rates are now too high. €200 per week was not a disincentive to work when the alternative to the dole was €700 per week on a building site. It is however a disincentive when the alternative is €350 per week on a building site.
75% of those now not bothering to earn a living were working and probably working long hours 2 years ago. As for the real hardcore of unemployed I have no answers but maybe some sort of compulsory job service scheme should be considered.

jimmmy

irish_bob wrote: »

police in ireland earn double what they do in australia , they earn at least 30% more than they do in the uk which is a richer country than us btw

teachers in ireland earn 75% more than thier counterparts in finland which is also a richer and more expensive country than us btw , they also earn more than 25% more than in the uk

nurses in ireland earn at least 30% more than in the uk
consultants in germany earn half what they earn in ireland , in fact a doctor in germany earns the same as a nurse in ireland
europes sickest economy has europes highest paid nurses teachers and police plus consulants , the arguement about the cost of living is now out of date , cut wages in the public sector and also reduce the level of wellfare and watch the cost of living fall sharply and quickly , the market unlike the state responds quickly to the level of purchasing power of the people but wages have to fall 1st , the cost of living cannot fall 1st , its is simply the way of things

True enough. As someone questioned me about the two vets - both public service, both working in border counties but on both sides of the border, both the same age and with the same qualifications ( the vetinary and world in Ireland is small and some vets do know each other....its not like east versus west germany in the cold war )...the southern p.s. vet gets 100,000 per year, the northern vet gets 52,000. Not only that, but the Rep. of Ireland vet gets more time off / is underworked ( are there not 15,000 people in the dept of agriculture and only 100,000 full time farmers in the country ). As the reputable vet who told me the story said, no wonder the country is bled dry by the p.s.

erictheviking

irish_bob wrote: »

police in ireland earn double what they do in australia , they earn at least 30% more than they do in the uk which is a richer country than us btw

teachers in ireland earn 75% more than thier counterparts in finland which is also a richer and more expensive country than us btw , they also earn more than 25% more than in the uk

nurses in ireland earn at least 30% more than in the uk
consultants in germany earn half what they earn in ireland , in fact a doctor in germany earns the same as a nurse in ireland
europes sickest economy has europes highest paid nurses teachers and police plus consulants , the arguement about the cost of living is now out of date , cut wages in the public sector and also reduce the level of wellfare and watch the cost of living fall sharply and quickly , the market unlike the state responds quickly to the level of purchasing power of the people but wages have to fall 1st , the cost of living cannot fall 1st , its is simply the way of things


YES TO LISBON , NO TO NAMA

You are picking and choosing stats here to suit your argument. I have family in Oz and can tell you the cost of living is about HALF what it is here. You are not comparing like with like. BTW I'm loving you and Jimmmy backslapping each others vitriolic comments:D

hobochris

erictheviking wrote: »

You are picking and choosing stats here to suit your argument. I have family in Oz and can tell you the cost of living is about HALF what it is here. You are not comparing like with like. BTW I'm loving you and Jimmmy backslapping each others vitriolic comments:D

The way to reduce the cost of living is to bring wages down, that way prices have to come down to so that the products can be sold.

erictheviking

jimmmy wrote: »

True enough. As someone questioned me about the two vets - both public service, both working in border counties but on both sides of the border, both the same age and with the same qualifications ( the vetinary and world in Ireland is small and some vets do know each other....its not like east versus west germany in the cold war )...the southern p.s. vet gets 100,000 per year, the northern vet gets 52,000. Not only that, but the Rep. of Ireland vet gets more time off / is underworked ( are there not 15,000 people in the dept of agriculture and only 100,000 full time farmers in the country ). As the reputable vet who told me the story said, no wonder the country is bled dry by the p.s.

I've had a read back through some of your posts. Your hatred of anything PS is borderline psychotic.:D
Everything you post, even in threads that have feck all to do with PS have some smartass cheap shot aimed at PS workers.:rolleyes:
As for the Vet story I found you posted the exact same thing in another thread only in that story one worker was a PS worker and the other worked for a multinational.
(What a coincidence you managed to find 2 people with Exactly the same Qualifications/same age working opposite sides of the borders with stories that would perfectly suit your argument :rolleyes:) Come on....admit it! You are making it up as you go along;).
I'm not PS and criticising them doesn't particularly bother me but some of your comments are on a personal level and plain insulting.
As for the Pay cut thing. How much of a pay cut have you taken? No waffle or repeated mantra please. Just a straight answer!
I'm guessing by the amount of time you spend on here you don't work:rolleyes:

podge3

MrMicra wrote: »

You are still €7.5K out by the way. €12.5K when one considers that all Gardai are paid a rent supplement of about €5K per annum.

No I'm not.

The rent allowance is not €5K, its €4,300 and I included that in my subsequent post i.e.

podge3 wrote: »

the Garda pay scale starts at about €27K and rises to about €48.5 K after 17 years. There are other allowances also, so lets round up the figures to €31K to €52K.

OK - I missed out on the €300 so lets make the figures €32K to €53,500 to make sure everything is included.

I have no idea what the average salary of a member of Garda rank is, but with the huge numbers of new entrants in the past few years its likely to be nearer to the bottom of the scale.

MrMicra wrote: »

You are still €7.5K out by the way.

No, I'm not. Its very easy to make up the other €7,500 i.e.

- medical card (most Garda members currently pay into a health insurance scheme at a cost of about €3K per annum)
- family income supplement
- all the other social welfare freebees e.g. back to school allowance, communion allowance etc etc
- also don't forget that the €22,500 would be taxed, although probably not all that much.

dearg lady

I think sometimes when people make sweeping statements they forget about the individuals behind them. There need to be a kind of compromise, ie country desperately needs money but if people wages are cut too much suddenly, what tehy end up on the street and tough luck. Taxes will increase and wages will fall/stagnate over the next few years, and in line with this our cost of living will come down.

There's no reason to put the blame on public or private sector, both have taken cuts in the last year or two. All workers have had to bear the burden of the income levy and increase in health levy, anyone buying in Ireland has had to bear teh burden of increased VAT rate, many private sector workers have been told they have to take pay cuts, all public sector workers have taken a pay cut in the form of the pension levy. We have all had to take a hit, and will continue to do so, it's not one sided, and in fairness it's not just one 'side' to blame.

vandermeyde

Some good points being made on both sides if you ignore the "You're sh1t, NO, you're sh1t" type arguments.

I've worked in both the public and private sector, personally in my line of work I never saw any huge difference between pay/entitlements etc. but maybe I was just lucky.

One thing I will say, is that in my experience, if you've an office of 10 people doing work that could reasonably be done by 6, it's the 4 who aren't pulling their weight that will typically be the ones who have text book knowledge of all the bargaining agreements, work practices, statuatory requirements and will also be heavily involved in the union movement.

From that perspective (rightly or wrongly) they are deemed to be untouchable and are normally just left alone.

Reforming the public sector is really dependent on getting rid of this type of dead wood rather than hammering the productive workers, that is going to be next to impossible without a hell of a lot of blood being shed, and I doubt this government or the next FG/Labour coalition will have the bottle for it. We shall see.

jimmmy

quote "As someone questioned me about the two vets - both public service, both working in border counties but on both sides of the border, both the same age and with the same qualifications ( the vetinary and world in Ireland is small and some vets do know each other....its not like east versus west germany in the cold war )...the southern p.s. vet gets 100,000 per year, the northern vet gets 52,000. Not only that, but the Rep. of Ireland vet gets more time off / is underworked ( are there not 15,000 people in the dept of agriculture and only 100,000 full time farmers in the country ). As the reputable vet who told me the story said, no wonder the country is bled dry by the p.s."

erictheviking wrote: »

As for the Vet story I found you posted the exact same thing in another thread only in that story one worker was a PS worker and the other worked for a multinational.
(What a coincidence you managed to find 2 people with Exactly the same Qualifications/same age working opposite sides of the borders with stories that would perfectly suit your argument :rolleyes:)

Incorrect, that is a lie erictheviking, I did not post "the exact same thing " or say "say one worker was a PS worker and the other worked for a multinational. ". In fact I explain the story above. You do not have to believe my story , check the pay of public servants in N. Ireland for yourself , compared to the Rep. of Ireland. While you are at it, see how the unemployment benefit in this country is almost 3 times the unemployment benefit in N.I., and how the minimum wage is 1.5 times here. Did not the German ambassador make some comment recently about consultants pay here compared to Germany ( his daughter being well qualified in a hospital in Berlin )

kippy

jimmmy wrote: »

quote "As someone questioned me about the two vets - both public service, both working in border counties but on both sides of the border, both the same age and with the same qualifications ( the vetinary and world in Ireland is small and some vets do know each other....its not like east versus west germany in the cold war )...the southern p.s. vet gets 100,000 per year, the northern vet gets 52,000. Not only that, but the Rep. of Ireland vet gets more time off / is underworked ( are there not 15,000 people in the dept of agriculture and only 100,000 full time farmers in the country ). As the reputable vet who told me the story said, no wonder the country is bled dry by the p.s."



Incorrect, that is a lie erictheviking, I did not post "the exact same thing " or say "say one worker was a PS worker and the other worked for a multinational. ". In fact I explain the story above. You do not have to believe my story , check the pay of public servants in N. Ireland for yourself , compared to the Rep. of Ireland. While you are at it, see how the unemployment benefit in this country is almost 3 times the unemployment benefit in N.I., and how the minimum wage is 1.5 times here. Did not the German ambassador make some comment recently about consultants pay here compared to Germany ( his daughter being well qualified in a hospital in Berlin )

Jimmmy,
I am sick and tired of the same points being bandied about every time this discussion or one similiar to it pops up. While your aims may be admirable the way in which you go about trying to achieve them is not.
While you have some valid points, please start to look at things in a more balanced way.



Excellent post there Vandermeyde.

ronbyrne2005

MrMicra wrote: »

That isn't accurate, teachers have a small amount of leave that can be taken in the ordinary way.
As I understand it teachers do not get three months off a year they work for 9 months of the year only and their pay for those nine months is paid out over the year.

Incidentally if that is the case the annualised salary of a newly qualified primary school teacher is just over €40,000. Provided that the person is hard working and commited to their job this seems reasonable to me.

A newly qualified teacher in France gets 20,000 a year and taxes there much higher but not sure how much income is tax free. Italy similar and in Greece they get 13k a year. UK pays less than 30keuro a year and have higher income taxes and council taxes than here.

We have to keep our Public sector salaries in line with Eurozone averages as we are part of same currency and common market.

partyguinness

My public sector friends are deillusional and also have a persecution complex...

This is their logic:

Public sector wage cuts = Public sector being blamed for the economic woes and being scape goated

Therefore why should we have to pay for other peoples mistakes?

I cant actually talk to them at the moment with all their whining and moaning. They earn €55-60k a year.

They cant seem to get into their heads that wage cuts are necessary as the tax which pays for their wages has plummeted and there is not enough money to keep the status quo. It is that simply.

They felt that the McCathry Report was all about the Public Sector being blamed. It was a series of recommendations to Gov on how to cuts costs. Simply as that.

It wasnt about blame but try telling them that.

jimmmy

partyguinness wrote: »

My public sector friends are deillusional and also have a persecution complex...

This is their logic:

Public sector wage cuts = Public sector being blamed for the economic woes and being scape goated

Therefore why should we have to pay for other peoples mistakes?

I cant actually talk to them at the moment with all their whining and moaning. They earn €55-60k a year.

They cant seem to get into their heads that wage cuts are necessary as the tax which pays for their wages has plummeted and there is not enough money to keep the status quo.

I agree with you there...and love the irony of how they think its other peoples mistakes. The head of our central bank / financial regulator failed to regulate our banks and prevent a property bubble. He was a public servant, as were all his staff. Its not as if our head central banker was not well paid - he was paid more than the heads of the equivalent central banks in the UK, USA etc...all much bigger countries with independent currencies.

Zzippy

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

A newly qualified teacher in France gets 20,000 a year and taxes there much higher but not sure how much income is tax free. Italy similar and in Greece they get 13k a year. UK pays less than 30keuro a year and have higher income taxes and council taxes than here.

We have to keep our Public sector salaries in line with Eurozone averages as we are part of same currency and common market.

If you're going to compare like with like, how about comparing the cost of living in all these countries? Cost of living here is far higher than in France or Greece, and considerably higher than in the UK. Do you have figures for other sectors in those countries? Any links to the figures quoted above?

erictheviking

jimmmy wrote: »

quote "As someone questioned me about the two vets - both public service, both working in border counties but on both sides of the border, both the same age and with the same qualifications ( the vetinary and world in Ireland is small and some vets do know each other....its not like east versus west germany in the cold war )...the southern p.s. vet gets 100,000 per year, the northern vet gets 52,000. Not only that, but the Rep. of Ireland vet gets more time off / is underworked ( are there not 15,000 people in the dept of agriculture and only 100,000 full time farmers in the country ). As the reputable vet who told me the story said, no wonder the country is bled dry by the p.s."



Incorrect, that is a lie erictheviking, I did not post "the exact same thing " or say "say one worker was a PS worker and the other worked for a multinational. ". In fact I explain the story above. You do not have to believe my story , check the pay of public servants in N. Ireland for yourself , compared to the Rep. of Ireland. While you are at it, see how the unemployment benefit in this country is almost 3 times the unemployment benefit in N.I., and how the minimum wage is 1.5 times here. Did not the German ambassador make some comment recently about consultants pay here compared to Germany ( his daughter being well qualified in a hospital in Berlin )

Moi??? A Liar??? I think not!
Most certainly not a lie and to prove it Here is your post.

"I was chatting with a couple of people at the weekend. Both were about the same age with the same qualifications and had both worked in the public sector many years ago. About 10 years ago one moved elsewhere in the country (got married ) and have to leave the public service and settle for a private sector job with an american multinational. They were comparing holidays. One got 31 days and the other only 21. One works longer hours per week. One has no pension. One get paid almost a third less than the other....no prizes for guessing more ( its the person in the private sector who is paid less). "Sickies" are really frowned upon. No flexitime. One may lose her job ( the factory may close its Irish operations ) in 6 months as the parent company is cutting back etc/ lost contracts to other countries etc. Should public service holidays be as generous as they are in Ireland ....maybe not all public servants get 31 days plus ( nine is it ? ) bank holidays ? In the States they only get a fraction of that."

both stories quite similar wouldn't you agree folks?:D:D

Here is the link to the thread.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055525434

After looking through some of your absolutely ridiculous posts containing
"facts" that have quite obviously been either made up or copied from some 2 bit tabloid it totally baffles me why people would even reply to your mostly inflammatory comments. You Sir are quite clearly a wind up merchant. How can you justify spending most of your day on a forum winding up a section of the workforce by rubbishing them while you are quite clearly doing feck all yourself. You have absolutely no credibility with me and I'm sure many other posters think the same.
However, I'll continue to read for the sheer entertainment value of your laughable contributions.:D:D

jimmmy

erictheviking wrote: »

both stories quite similar wouldn't you agree folks?:D:D

But two different stories nevertheless. Both are consistent with the facts. I do happen to know ( through various clubs, relations, colleagues etc ) more than a few people, thank God.

erictheviking

jimmmy wrote: »

But two different stories nevertheless. Both are consistent with the facts. I do happen to know ( through various clubs, relations, colleagues etc ) more than a few people, thank God.

:D:D
Classic! I can't believe you are trying to defend your actions!!:D
You quite obviously made that up!:D
The stories are not different.
So let me get this straight.... All the people you know come in pairs, these pairs have exactly the same qualifications and are the same age and conveniently work in jobs that can be used to back up your arguments so you can use them as "facts" when it suits you!:rolleyes:

All I can say is "You can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time!"

podge3

erictheviking wrote: »

All I can say is "You can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time!"

How about

"Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience"

irish_bob

Drumpot wrote: »

Some people are purposely making this into a public v private debate to suit their own agenda's . . Both sides are making valid and irrelevant points.

Im just wondering why any P.S. says that by suggesting there should be paycuts/cost reductions in the Public service, why this is scapegoating this area ?

People in the private sector are paying heavily in paycuts and job losses already. By employers reducing their wages, the country is not benefiting directly (reduced VAT from purchases and it doesnt add to our tax income).

The country cannot afford a 20billion defecit every year so money has to be saved. In any walk of life, when you are in financial trouble you look at whereyour biggest expenses are and where you can make your bigger savings.

I cant speak for others, but when I suggest that public servants should take a pay cut, I dont necessarily believe it should be everybody. Those on the lower incomes should be protected more then those on higher incomes. We shouldnt be afraid of losing those on higher incomes as this country has plenty of highly qualified, highly motivated unemployed people to take their very cushdie numbers. Theres the obvious cost cutting excercise of trimming the fat, many jobs for people who simply do fk all.


For anybody saying that the public service is being scapegoated . . Without coming out with the usual B.S about how its not your fault (as if everybody in the Private sector drove us into this recession) or how you work hard for your money (which suggests that those in the private service dont!) . . What exactly do you propose we do to shore up the €20 billion defecit ? Because thats the ONLY important issue in this specific discussion on public service paycuts. . EVERYBODY IN THIS COUNTRY (T.D's ASIDE) ARE GOING TO HAVE TO WORK HARDER FOR LESS, THIS IS NOT LIMITED TO PUBLIC SERVANTS.

the cliched on message to the last man and woman like clones mantra about how they didnt cause this mess , the private sector creamed it during the boom and the govermen has divided worker against worker , all this blather is quite amusing indeed , i for one suspect they all attended some form of tuition camp earlier in the year where they were briefed my mess,rs begg and o ,connor on what slogans and banners to use when confronted with the issue of pensions and pay , as i said already , to the last man and woman like clones , they all come out with the same lines , i knew public servants were not the most individual of cats but talk about being on message collectivley

irish_bob

vandermeyde wrote: »

Some good points being made on both sides if you ignore the "You're sh1t, NO, you're sh1t" type arguments.

I've worked in both the public and private sector, personally in my line of work I never saw any huge difference between pay/entitlements etc. but maybe I was just lucky.

One thing I will say, is that in my experience, if you've an office of 10 people doing work that could reasonably be done by 6, it's the 4 who aren't pulling their weight that will typically be the ones who have text book knowledge of all the bargaining agreements, work practices, statuatory requirements and will also be heavily involved in the union movement.

From that perspective (rightly or wrongly) they are deemed to be untouchable and are normally just left alone.

Reforming the public sector is really dependent on getting rid of this type of dead wood rather than hammering the productive workers, that is going to be next to impossible without a hell of a lot of blood being shed, and I doubt this government or the next FG/Labour coalition will have the bottle for it. We shall see.

the public sector and especially the civil service is purposely designed to employ as many people as possible in whatever given area , i collected my mum from the hospital today , she was in for some tests and there for about five hours , four different people asked her the same exact questions , i for one do not believe that the 1st three were suffering from amnesia , duplication of work is part and parcel of the entire ps , the only real value many of theese people provide is who they vote for , which is why they are not sacked of course

irish_bob

partyguinness wrote: »

My public sector friends are deillusional and also have a persecution complex...

This is their logic:

Public sector wage cuts = Public sector being blamed for the economic woes and being scape goated

Therefore why should we have to pay for other peoples mistakes?

I cant actually talk to them at the moment with all their whining and moaning. They earn €55-60k a year.

They cant seem to get into their heads that wage cuts are necessary as the tax which pays for their wages has plummeted and there is not enough money to keep the status quo. It is that simply.

They felt that the McCathry Report was all about the Public Sector being blamed. It was a series of recommendations to Gov on how to cuts costs. Simply as that.

It wasnt about blame but try telling them that.

all you have to tell them is that public sector workers more than anyone benefited from what developers and builders were up to , the builders provided the revenue which allowed this country claim the title of europes highest paid ps , that source of revenue is now gone , hence the problem with the current wage bill of the ps , theese over paid brats however not only believe the rest of us tax payer stiffs should cough up more tax so as to allow ireland to remain at number one in terms of best paid ps , they also believe we should do so without the slightest hint of protest , hence the cries of , why are you demonising us , they would perfer we just thanked them for thier selfless devotion to mother ireland and kindly went on our broke ass way , they genuinly believe they are of a higher calibre , theese union types being the hard leftists that they are , are masters at indoctrination , they have convinced thier flock that they are of a higher moral standard of decency that the dirty capitalist private sector workers and therefore the rules are different for them than the rest of us who live by the free marker , no wonder all ps workers when confronted with the issue of pay and pensions , to the last man and woman like clones come out with the same replies

WE DIDNT CAUSE THIS MESS
THE PRIVATE SECTOR CREAMED IT DURING THE BOOM
THE GOVERMENT IS DIVIDING WORKER AGAINST WORKER
DONT BELIEVE WHAT YOU READ IN THE SINDO

some of us are on to thier weasel words

irish_bob

Zzippy wrote: »

If you're going to compare like with like, how about comparing the cost of living in all these countries? Cost of living here is far higher than in France or Greece, and considerably higher than in the UK. Do you have figures for other sectors in those countries? Any links to the figures quoted above?

once more for the slightly hard of hearing at the back , cost of living is high because wages and rates of wellfare are high , wages have to fall before cost of living does , when wages fall , cost of living will in tandem , its always been this way but we cant just wait for cost of living to drop before we touch wages

jmayo

irish_bob wrote: »

the public sector and especially the civil service is purposely designed to employ as many people as possible in whatever given area , i collected my mum from the hospital today , she was in for some tests and there for about five hours , four different people asked her the same exact questions , i for one do not believe that the 1st three were suffering from amnesia , duplication of work is part and parcel of the entire ps , the only real value many of theese people provide is who they vote for , which is why they are not sacked of course

Actually there is a logical reason for that happening in hospitals.
It is found that Doctors/Consultants have to verify the information given is correct, in case they f*** up and are then held liable because they based diagnosis/treatment on incorrect information.
It is a cover your ar** scenario.
Thus a patient gets asked the same questions by each person they see.

In this case I would prefer that a doctor asked rather than try and decipher someone elses poor english grammar, poor writing or base their decisions on the work of a junior who has been working for the last 72 hours. :rolleyes:

BTW there are plenty valid examples of duplication and wastage within the HSE.

Lockstep

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

A newly qualified teacher in France gets 20,000 a year and taxes there much higher but not sure how much income is tax free. Italy similar and in Greece they get 13k a year. UK pays less than 30keuro a year and have higher income taxes and council taxes than here.

We have to keep our Public sector salaries in line with Eurozone averages as we are part of same currency and common market.

Ha, I'd hate to have spent a full cycle in the French system, they're system seems a lot like indoctrination from the time I spent there.

"This is the theory Marx came up with; WHILE IN FRANCE"

Etc.

France is also a hell of a lot cheaper than here, as well as VAT being much more equitable (VAT on food was low, increasing for luxury goods)

Lockstep

jimmmy wrote: »

But two different stories nevertheless. Both are consistent with the facts. I do happen to know ( through various clubs, relations, colleagues etc ) more than a few people, thank God.

I'm sorry Jimmmy but most of your PS bashing posts seem to revolve around some guy you met in the pub who once met a guy who worked in the civil service.

THey all seem to revolve around anecdotal evidence.

amacca

irish_bob wrote: »

once more for the slightly hard of hearing at the back , cost of living is high because wages and rates of wellfare are high , wages have to fall before cost of living does , when wages fall , cost of living will in tandem

Normally Bob, Id have to agree with you here. However it seems as if this probably will not happen in this fair isle over the short or possibly medium term.

The consumer price index rose by 0.4% in August. The increases in the CPI were due to increases in the cost of clothing and footwear and mortgage interest. This despite significant wage reductions in all sectors.

I can only see mortgage interest going one way in the coming years as our much besmirched lending institutions try to scrape every last drop of cash out of their customers to restore their balance sheets.

This could very well leave the average worker (the ones with mortgages at least) be they public or private service facing a situation of falling wages combined with increased cost of living.

So while wage cuts normally do have the effect of lowering prices we could be looking at the exact opposite situation materialising here.

You will have a hard time convincing anyone with a mortgage and an ounce of sense that the cost of living will come down when their wages come down.

Count Dooku

erictheviking wrote: »

You are picking and choosing stats here to suit your argument. I have family in Oz and can tell you the cost of living is about HALF what it is here. You are not comparing like with like. BTW I'm loving you and Jimmmy backslapping each others vitriolic comments:D

I don’t understand what is reason to mention Australia, when Jimmmy clearly mentioned Finland, which is not cheaper then Ireland
Anyway,
It was discussion about Finland before and even PS workers agreed that they need new benchmarking

alentejo

As stated earlier in on this blog, I would be prepared to live with an additional 5% reduction.

However, In my dept in the PS, the numbers of staff could be reduced if proper hours were introduced and things like flexi days were reviewed. In my small dept, you could reduce numbers by a quarter if you could tighten the leave and hours worked, The public sector requires to work longer and smarter (and I stand to loose)