Public sector workers willing to take pay cuts?

miju

irish_bob wrote: »

i dont believe thier is anyone in the public sector on low wages and i think guards and nurses are far too well paid compared to countries which are wealtheir than us

on the subject of Garda pay, lets take a city in a country lot more wealthier than us say LA in the States?

LAPD Starting Salary: $52,638 / €36,102

Garda Starting Salary (after attestation): $39,505 / €27,098

So theres that point of yours blown out of the water and before you say the Garda get all sorts of allowances so does the foreign example I posted above as you will see in Appendix 1 - 3 of the link I provided.

amacca

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

Government could promise not to sack any PS on permanent contract(unless for discipline reasons) as the pay cut would save jobs in PS.

Have they not already promised them this by employing them on a permanent contract?

surely the only point which a permanent workers job is in jeopardy (outside of disciplinary reasons) is when the state is bankrupt?

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

Also the reduced spending power of PS would feed into cost of living and the real pay cut wouldnt be 20% when reduction in cost of living is factored in. The pay cut could be brought in over a few years to ease the pain and make it easier for public servants to adjust their spending and financial commitments.

Possibly true, but maybe the opposite situation for those unfortunate enough to have substantial outstanding mortgages when the banks start ratcheting up the interest rates in response to ecb rate rises and of their own accord.

irish_bob

miju wrote: »

on the subject of Garda pay, lets take a city in a country lot more wealthier than us say LA in the States?

LAPD Starting Salary: $52,638 / €36,102

Garda Starting Salary (after attestation): $39,505 / €27,098

So theres that point of yours blown out of the water and before you say the Garda get all sorts of allowances so does the foreign example I posted above as you will see in Appendix 1 - 3 of the link I provided.

the job of a cop in the usa compared to ireland is comparable to the job of an american solider in iraq compared to an irish solider in chad , i dont know if you are correct on those pay comparrisons but i know for a fact that police in ireland are much higher paid than in the uk , throughout my posts , i have made comparisons with other eu countries

dearg lady

jimmmy wrote: »

You still have not got the point, have you. Your gross pay is still the same. As said earlier, "Your pension is still being subsidised. Do you think the old system was better for public finances, eg people who retired in the past few years and who got / are getting huge pensions compared to the money they ever put in to it ? eg a Guard taking early retirement now has a pension pot worth over a million. "

No YOU are still missing the point, I understand completely that the pension is subsidised, but if I am earning 100 one week and 90 the next week that is a pay cut. Please refer to my previous posts for more detailed explanation.

Theboinkmaster

EF wrote: »

As a civil servant I think a few things could be done:

Cut job seekers allowance by 5%. For every year an individual is unemployed cut their job seekers allowance by 10% down to a minimum of 50%.

Tax lump sum pension payments across the board.

Put public sector workers on 5 year renewable contracts and if they don't perform, their contracts are not renewed. Hard workers will have nothing to fear.

Increase corporation tax to 15% and invest heavily in Irish start-ups.

Introduce the property tax to put further downward pressure on property prices. There must be thousands of first time buyers who simply couldn't afford the boom prices but could buy at a reduced price.

Retrain a number of civil servants to be able provide professional childcare to those on lone parents allowance which should help these re-enter the workforce.

Name and shame social welfare fraudsters in the national media and make them repay this money financially and through community service.

Restrict further the ability of individuals and lawyers to bring judicial review proceedings against the State.

In the future offer voluntary redundancy to public sector workers.

Benchmark public sector workers with like for like private sector workers.


These are just a few ideas anyway. Expenditure from here on in will be a lot less anyway on the public sector payroll side of things through the pension levy, retirements and non-replacement of staff, no term-time workers, 3 year career breaks, no promotions, extra unpaid annual leave which a lot of people where I work have availed of anyway. Public sector workers are working a lot harder despite these changes and daily headline criticism in the media. If the payroll is not reduced it is the politicians that people should direct their anger towards!

How do we reduce the budget deficit without going into a deflationary spiral is probably a better question to ask in my opinion.

Interesting post however none of those get us any near the €20bn I'm afraid - and things like increasing corporation tax is ridiculous considering it's one of our few competitive advantages at present - I'd want to be REDUCING it.

You do realise that if you DOUBLED all income tax on every worker in the state it would only yield €10bn - that's how much of a hole we're in.

To make any inroads you must cut social welfare by 10%, public sector pay by 15% etc to make up the €20bn - drastic immediate cuts are required. Either Cowen does it in December or the EU/IMF do much worse in 9 months time...

kippy

Drumpot wrote: »

I know exactly what these "gold plated" pensions offer and more often then not it is better then Defined Contributions. . It costs the state over 1 billion a year to subsidise shortfalls in this pension fund (so its not paying for itself).

People in a D.C. scheme dont get any state help when their fund bombs and loses half its value . .

For every year worked, those in the P.S. pension scheme are entitled to 1-40th of their final salary. This is guaranteed.

Its already been established that the benchmarking thats gone on in recent years has meant irrespective of how well you have been doing your job, not only has your salary gone up, but your pension enitlements increase (perhaps thats why so many people in the public service believe they are entitled to so much).

What you receive at the end of your service is guaranteed . .

Not really sure what your point on "P.S not having the choice to take their money out of the scheme" as the only employees allowed to get their money back are the ones in a company pension scheme with less then 2 years contributions (and they are taxable returns)!!

Im not really sure what your post was about. . Its widely awknowledged (by anybody with any sort of understanding of pensions) that the state pension that Public servants get is better then the D.C. pensions that the majority of Private workers get. In fact, the only people in the private sector who would get a Defined benefit pension akin to the public service are high net work directors and companies who like spending a fortune on the top pension schemes for their employees (which is nearly non existant)>

I worked in an insurance company and I can assure you that the kind of pension scheme that Public servants get nowadays has all but dissapeared in the private sector because of the cost to maintain the benefits.

When Im retiring as an employee of a private company, my pension will be decided on:

- How much I have put in
- How well my fund has performed
- The interest rates at the time
- The Pension rate being offered by the insurance companies at that time
- My final Salary
- If I want spouses pension I will have to pay more and receive a smaller Pension

Right now, for a 65 year old female to get a pension of €12,000 a year on top of their state pension they would require a fund of €207,370. That doesnt include any spouses or childrens benefits.

To get a fund of €207k a 30 year old female would need to contribute roughly €300 a month. Now thats assuming that the fund grows 5% per compounded. For a spouses pension it goes up to €230k. (Im not even discussing the tax free lump sum!).

Now anybody in D.C. pensions in the last two years will of been hammered if they are in anything other then Cash or Government bonds. Whereas anybody with a state pension doesnt have to worry about that as the government have their back . .

if you work in the state for 20 years and have a final salary of 60k, you would be entitled to €20,000 per annum when you retire, irrespective of fund performance, contributions . . . .

To be honest . . I could go on . . But I will leave it there . .

All I need to say is that this kind of pension arrangement is costing the state over €1 billion a year to fund. . I have no problem with dropping the state levy and changing your pension arrangements to D.C. like everybody else.

But you know what, watch the unions change their stance on the levy, if this suggestion ever does come on the table. You always see how valuable a "perk" is when its been threatened to be taken away . .

Needless to say I dont agree with all you are saying and I believe you use of selective figures, timing and statistics is as useful and balanced as what Jimmy comes up with from time to time.
The PS pension is good, yeah, but like other pensions, private and public, the "goodness" of it depends on numerous factors.

As a matter of interest, do you have access to the figures, especially the one that mentions the shortfall of a Billion per annum? I wouldnt mind looking at these myself. For example was that billion before or after the imposition of the levy?

I've said it before and I will say it again. I do believe a "proper" state pension for private and public should be set up, everyone pays an equal amount with equal - guaranteed, returns at retirement. There are however way too many vested interests within the pensions industry to let this happen.

Not all private pension funds have "tanked", again you are being very selective about what you are talking about.


And again, Ill say this again.
If you arent happy with your terms and conditions of employment you should review your options.

Ill go through your figures when I have a bit of time and point out the nuances that you have neglected to mention.

kippy

irish_bob wrote: »

the job of a cop in the usa compared to ireland is comparable to the job of an american solider in iraq compared to an irish solider in chad , i dont know if you are correct on those pay comparrisons but i know for a fact that police in ireland are much higher paid than in the uk , throughout my posts , i have made comparisons with other eu countries

In all fairness to to miju,
You did state "Countries that are wealthier than us". That left you wide open.

I wouldnt like to be a cop in either country and to demean the Gardai and the Irish Army is nothing short of disrespectful.

FGR

Bob also neglected to factor in the far higher income tax we pay in Ireland than the US.

Gross Salaries are higher in LA whilst taxes and the general cost of living are lower.

miju

irish_bob wrote: »

i know for a fact that police in ireland are much higher paid than in the uk , throughout my posts , i have made comparisons with other eu countries

well your facts are wrong and I'll gladly make an EU comparison. The starting rate for a constable (link) after they have completed their training is £28,963.49 / €33,135.20.

You claim as fact that Garda are paid more than their UK equivelant which in actual fact they are paid €6037 less than their UK equivalents when they have completed their training.

In relation to nurses an Irish midwifes (I used a midwife specifically because I'm unfamiliar with different nursing grades so if anyone has a better handle on it that I would care to make a better comparison please do so) starting salary is €31875 and their UK equivalent earns €23,692.93 (See Band 5 point 16).

The reason I back up you argument with the second part of my post is because I want to show that not all public servnts are "overpaid compared to their EU equivalents" (as well as showing I'm not a biased Public Servant). The place this is pretty much 90% prevailent in the public sector is in the hospitals which has become a MASSIVE black hole for this countries finances.

It's the Health services that really need to be tackled first and I'd say would generate massive savings very , very quickly.

ronbyrne2005

Doesnt matter what they pay in america and uk and Germany. These are richest countries in world. Not just in terms of GNP per capita but in terms of their public infrastructure and financial assets. They have had industry and economic prosperity for most of past several hundred years.

During the bubble here youd hear people saying we were richest country in world but it was based on high GDP which is distort by high levels of FDI and much of our gnp/gdp growth was fueled by debt as shown in private sector debt explosion over past decade to pay for inflated houses , helicopters and mercs. The richest countries have high levels of financial and other assets as well as high GNP. Our entire asset wealth was based on inflated property which has now evaporated.
As David McWilliams says we will have similar high levels of national debt as the rest Europe by the time this crisis is over but we wont have the schools,train networks, childcare facilitites, modern infrastructure, hospitals etc. And we'll have all that private sector debt to finance when interest rates rise again.

ParkRunner

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

Interesting post however none of those get us any near the €20bn I'm afraid - and things like increasing corporation tax is ridiculous considering it's one of our few competitive advantages at present - I'd want to be REDUCING it.

You do realise that if you DOUBLED all income tax on every worker in the state it would only yield €10bn - that's how much of a hole we're in.

To make any inroads you must cut social welfare by 10%, public sector pay by 15% etc to make up the €20bn - drastic immediate cuts are required. Either Cowen does it in December or the EU/IMF do much worse in 9 months time...

Being realistic however you can't bridge a 20bn gap in the space of 12 months. There has to be a phased closing of the gap over the years and if you took 10bn out of government expenditure this year private sector unemployment would probably double.

For corporation tax I think it is about time we did increase it. Multi-nationals are closing their doors all over the country and they aren't being replaced by other multi-naionals, so a more stable strong indigenous base is much more dersireable!

ParkRunner

mikemac wrote: »

I thought we had that already

We do in theory anyway and I dont think public sector workers have anything to fear from being benchmarked against similar private sector workers, or a group of similar international workers, taking into account the cost of living here and the high levels of skills and educational qualifications that exist in the public sector.

From my own experience even those at the lowest grades are required to go well beyond their role profile and they have to be able to adapt to any kind of work depending on what Department the are in.

erictheviking

irish_bob wrote: »

the job of a cop in the usa compared to ireland is comparable to the job of an american solider in iraq compared to an irish solider in chad , i dont know if you are correct on those pay comparrisons but i know for a fact that police in ireland are much higher paid than in the uk , throughout my posts , i have made comparisons with other eu countries

You are obviously not from Dublin:D There are parts of Dublin that even 50 cent and his mates wouldn't go into:D

jimmmy

miju wrote: »

You claim as fact that Garda are paid more than their UK equivelant which in actual fact they are paid €6037 less than their UK equivalents when they have completed their training.

In relation to nurses an Irish midwifes (I used a midwife specifically because I'm unfamiliar with different nursing grades so if anyone has a better handle on it that I would care to make a better comparison please do so) starting salary is €31875 and their UK equivalent earns €23,692.93 (See Band 5 point 16).

The reason I back up you argument with the second part of my post is because I want to show that not all public servnts are "overpaid compared to their EU equivalents" (as well as showing I'm not a biased Public Servant). The place this is pretty much 90% prevailent in the public sector is in the hospitals which has become a MASSIVE black hole for this countries finances.

I agree with that, but in order to see the wood from the trees its better to look at average Garda pay for example compared to average police pay abroad...rather than just police newly "qualified" in both jurisdictions. Garda here can retire on pension after 30 years ( and judges after 15 ) - can they do that abroad ? I think to be fair everyone knows our public service is overpaid - why is our government continuing to borrow 400 million per week to keep things going as they are ?

jimmmy

erictheviking wrote: »

You are obviously not from Dublin:D There are parts of Dublin that even 50 cent and his mates wouldn't go into:D

Dublin, propped up by high public sector expenditure and high social welfare, is a paradise compared to parts of LA, where there is no such welfare system, gun and drug crime is worse etc. The average Gardai is still, in my opinion having spent time in both countries, better paid + pensioned in Ireland than in USA in general. It goes all the way up to the top ; Cowen is paid more than Obama etc.

kippy

jimmmy wrote: »

I agree with that, but in order to see the wood from the trees its better to look at average Garda pay for example compared to average police pay abroad...rather than just police newly "qualified" in both jurisdictions. Garda here can retire on pension after 30 years ( and judges after 15 ) - can they do that abroad ? I think to be fair everyone knows our public service is overpaid - why is our government continuing to borrow 400 million per week to keep things going as they are ?

Jimmy,
Can you answer this?
"Garda here can retire on pension after 30 years ( and judges after 15 ) - can they do that abroad ?"
You asked it, and from your tone you are assuming that they cant do that abroad.


Everyone knows the country is in a jock and that things have to change-not necessarily through pay although it is one part of the answer.

Drumpot

kippy wrote: »

Needless to say I dont agree with all you are saying and I believe you use of selective figures, timing and statistics is as useful and balanced as what Jimmy comes up with from time to time.
The PS pension is good, yeah, but like other pensions, private and public, the "goodness" of it depends on numerous factors.

As a matter of interest, do you have access to the figures, especially the one that mentions the shortfall of a Billion per annum? I wouldnt mind looking at these myself. For example was that billion before or after the imposition of the levy?

I've said it before and I will say it again. I do believe a "proper" state pension for private and public should be set up, everyone pays an equal amount with equal - guaranteed, returns at retirement. There are however way too many vested interests within the pensions industry to let this happen.

Not all private pension funds have "tanked", again you are being very selective about what you are talking about.


And again, Ill say this again.
If you arent happy with your terms and conditions of employment you should review your options.

Ill go through your figures when I have a bit of time and point out the nuances that you have neglected to mention.

I did a quote based on todays Interest rates and what it would cost you to buy a pension of €12,000 per annum with Irish Life . . Nothing hidden in those figures. Phone up Irish Life yourself and ask them what it would cost for a male/female to get a pension of €12,000 a year . .

It doesnt really matter what figures you come up with, A defined Benefit pension scheme is a better pension arrangement then a defined contribution pension scheme. Unless your investment totally scores at the perfect times and you time out ofthe market at the right time!

Most people more then 5 years from retirement have lost 40% of their fund value. Im a financial advisor, I happen to know this from first hand experience and from talking to many many people in the pensions industry. If you were LUCKY, you may of moved your funds out of any equities before the crash but I wont get into this .

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/public-sector-pension-bill-tops-8364100bn-despite-levy-1884881.html

http://www.tascnet.ie/upload/public_service_pension_levy_1.pdf

Second article puts the figure at 1.5 billion . .

It is an anomaly that the State is both borrowing and making
an annual contribution of €1.5 billion to the National Pensions Reserve Fund.

Its a superior pension in comparison to DC pensions, even in the good years . .

jimmmy

kippy wrote: »

Jimmy,
Can you answer this?
"Garda here can retire on pension after 30 years ( and judges after 15 ) - can they do that abroad ?"
You asked it, and from your tone you are assuming that they cant do that abroad..

There must be police and judiciary in practically every country in the world, I do not know if police can retire in any of them after 30 years ( and judges after 15 ) on as generous a pension package as they get here.....I doubt it somehow.

kippy wrote: »

Everyone knows the country is in a jock and that things have to change-not necessarily through pay although it is one part of the answer.

"not necessarily through pay"....so for example you think the head of our central bank should remain the highest paid central banker in the world ( better paid than the head of the Bank of England, or the Fed reserve in the states ....this despite his disastrous failure in regulating our banks and economy ) , Mr. Cowen our Taoiseach should remain better paid than Obama and the prime minister of the UK, Germany, France etc....all the way down the list of those receiving government cheques ?
I would say "Everyone knows the country is in a jock and that things have to change- and government expenditure ( remember 20 billion approx is spent on the public service, mostly pay , and 20 billion is spent on social welfare ) is an important part of the answer.

jimmmy

Drumpot wrote: »

Im a financial advisor, I happen to know this from first hand experience and from talking to many many people in the pensions industry.

Good , you are an expert ( or at least work in ) an area I have a question about. Do you remember a study / report by some professional in your field a few months ago, which calculated the worth of the "pension pot" of a Garda retiring in his fifties after 30 years service ?
I seem to remember reading it was worth just over a million euro, but do not have a link. Thanks.

Drumpot

jimmmy wrote: »

Good , you are an expert ( or at least work in ) an area I have a question about. Do you remember a study / report by some professional in your field a few months ago, which calculated the worth of the "pension pot" of a Garda retiring in his fifties after 30 years service ?
I seem to remember reading it was worth just over a million euro, but do not have a link. Thanks.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-pension-worth-836411m-1664588.html

I think above link is what you refer to?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lavish-public-sector-pension-payouts-1510488.html

Seriously , I could go on all day . . Anybody who defends the P.S. pension as not the "gold plated" pension , simply doesnt understand the pension industry and whats available to the average Joe not in a defined contribution scheme. .

erictheviking

jimmmy wrote: »

Good , you are an expert ( or at least work in ) an area I have a question about. Do you remember a study / report by some professional in your field a few months ago, which calculated the worth of the "pension pot" of a Garda retiring in his fifties after 30 years service ?
I seem to remember reading it was worth just over a million euro, but do not have a link. Thanks.

I bet you wouldn't be complaining if you were in line for one of those garda pensions;)
Your attitude comes across as "I'm not getting one so why should anyone else?" (Throws toys out of pram)

jimmmy

erictheviking wrote: »

I bet you wouldn't be complaining if you were in line for one of those garda pensions;)

Wrong actually, I have a bit of a social conscience. I have a good friend who is a Garda recently retired, and he is a bit embarassed at the size of his pension, and willingly admits he gets much more than he can spend, and he has a great lifestyle. I know a few other Gardai ( individuals whom I have respect for, by the way ) who are retired but they have not confided to me about their pensions, but they appear very comfortably off ( holiday home abroad etc )
Maybe erictheviking you are in line for one yourself...if so, lets hope you get it before the IMF move in + restore sense to the system.

ronbyrne2005

Lower pay and pension (still give them good pay and pension just not so extravagent as taxpayers have to fund it) would mean more resources for the most vulnerable in society. Public servants in the European countries with best social services get less Groos pay than in IReland and also pay greater tax on that low income!

P. Breathnach

Drumpot wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-pension-worth-836411m-1664588.html

I think above link is what you refer to?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lavish-public-sector-pension-payouts-1510488.html

Can you do better than the Indo? Something with a good set of numbers, and that is not mainly commentary.

Seriously , I could go on all day

No need to. That's jimmmy's role.

. . Anybody who defends the P.S. pension as not the "gold plated" pension , simply doesnt understand the pension industry and whats available to the average Joe not in a defined contribution scheme. .

Those who say that PS pension provision is poor are mistaken. It is one of the great attractions of PS careers.

di2772

Just something to ponder for anyone who wants to get off their hole and sort out their own pension instead of just complaining about other peoples benefits from their jobs. Benefits, that we all could have had if we wanted to go for the same jons, i might add.

Over 40 years, the same as the periods we are talking about for public sector, it wont cost you a whole lot to get a good a better pension than a public sector pension.

http://www.pensionsboard.ie/index.asp?locID=458&docID=500

See the attachment.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

... I have a good friend who is a Garda recently retired, and he is a bit embarassed at the size of his pension ...

I have some doubts about what you say about your circle of friends. They provide you with an apparently-endless supply of anecdotal evidence in support of your anti-PS stance.

irish_bob

miju wrote: »

well your facts are wrong and I'll gladly make an EU comparison. The starting rate for a constable (link) after they have completed their training is £28,963.49 / €33,135.20.

You claim as fact that Garda are paid more than their UK equivelant which in actual fact they are paid €6037 less than their UK equivalents when they have completed their training.

In relation to nurses an Irish midwifes (I used a midwife specifically because I'm unfamiliar with different nursing grades so if anyone has a better handle on it that I would care to make a better comparison please do so) starting salary is €31875 and their UK equivalent earns €23,692.93 (See Band 5 point 16).

The reason I back up you argument with the second part of my post is because I want to show that not all public servnts are "overpaid compared to their EU equivalents" (as well as showing I'm not a biased Public Servant). The place this is pretty much 90% prevailent in the public sector is in the hospitals which has become a MASSIVE black hole for this countries finances.

It's the Health services that really need to be tackled first and I'd say would generate massive savings very , very quickly.

i have a cousin in wales who works as a nurse , he qualified in the mid 80,s and is several steps up the ladder , he earns 33,000 pounds a year , nurses in ireland earn at least 25% more than they do in the uk

Drumpot

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Can you do better than the Indo? Something with a good set of numbers, and that is not mainly commentary.

So now the source is the problem . . :rolleyes:

No point in even debating this with some people . .

I already posted a link to a differant source above . .

For the majority of people in the public service, the pension scheme they can avail of is far far superior to the pension arrangements the rest of us can organise . .

I dont know anybody in the pensions industry (and I know a few) who disagree with this statement . . Im not stating this as a matter of fact on something I discussed with the lads in the pub last night , I work in the industry. Companies Dont offer D.B. pensions like the state because they simply cost the company too much . . Speaks for itself . .

Find me a credible source that suggests otherwise . .

Drumpot

di2772 wrote: »

Just something to ponder for anyone who wants to get off their hole and sort out their own pension instead of just complaining about other peoples benefits from their jobs. Benefits, that we all could have had if we wanted to go for the same jons, i might add.

Over 40 years, the same as the periods we are talking about for public sector, it wont cost you a whole lot to get a good a better pension than a public sector pension.

http://www.pensionsboard.ie/index.asp?locID=458&docID=500

See the attachment.

Assumptions:

• Investment returns 5% per year
• Salary increase 3% per year
• State Pension will increase in line with salary increases
• contributions increase each year

Alot of assumptions there . .

Whats missed is that at the moment :

• P.S. pensions are guaranteed based on your final salary
• P.S. Pensions are not affected by investment returns (govt subsidise losses)
• Doesnt matter how much you put into your P.S. pension, you get an amount that you can set your financial circumstances towards.

Seriously guys, stop the pension debate . . Theres no real arguement that P.S's are being made to pay properly for this benefit . . the levy didnt go far enough if P.S.'s want to actually pay the real value of their pensions . . It was a perk thats been there for ages and should of been addressed in the boom years. . The state has to cut costs and if so many P.S.'s think so little of their pension scheme with the state, then they would prefer this to be chopped then their salary . .

Like I said, lets cancel the pension scheme and see how many P.S.'s complain about how much they were paying towards it . .

P. Breathnach

Drumpot wrote: »

So now the source is the problem . . :rolleyes:

No point in even debating this with some people . .

I already posted a link to a differant source above . .

I confess that I missed that, but it does not actually touch on what jimmmy asked about.

For the majority of people in the public service, the pension scheme they can avail of is far far superior to the pension arrangements the rest of us can organise . .

I dont know anybody in the pensions industry (and I know a few) who disagree with this statement . . Im not stating this as a matter of fact on something I discussed with the lads in the pub last night , I work in the industry. Companies Dont offer D.B. pensions like the state because they simply cost the company too much . . Speaks for itself . .

Find me a credible source that suggests otherwise . .

How can we debate honestly if people ignore what their interlocutors say? I said, in the post that provoked your response

Those who say that PS pension provision is poor are mistaken. It is one of the great attractions of PS careers.