New property tax

billyhead

Folks,

Just wondering if anyone knows if the new property tax being recommended by the McCarthy report will be lumped upon people who purchased affordable housing?

D3PO

billyhead wrote: »

Folks,

Just wondering if anyone knows if the new property tax being recommended by the McCarthy report will be lumped upon people who purchased affordable housing?

if its applied it will apply to everybody on a scale depending on their property value or so we are lead to believe.

The_Conductor

D3PO wrote: »

if its applied it will apply to everybody on a scale depending on their property value or so we are lead to believe.

The manner in which the property tax has not been fully decided. There are two seperate parts to it- an outright valuation part- and seperately a square footage part.

When we last had a property tax, it was commonly known as 'The Dublin Tax' because the vast majority of properties hit by it were in Dublin. People could have mansions outside the Pale, and pay nada.

This time round- its thought that the absolute value of the house will only form perhaps 50% of the determination of the tax due- the size of the property will form the other 50%. Shoeboxes in Dublin will get charged on their value- Mansions in Kerry- on their size........

D3PO

yeah I guess we will have to wait and see.

Personally Im going to make a song and dance out of this if it comes in and I expect a lot of others to do the same.

I stumped up well over 20k in stamp duty as an FTB back in '05 due to the government deciding to fleece people getting on the ladder by not changing the stamp duty levels to help ease the burden on FTB's, if they think im handing over more tax without a fight they have another thing coming.

faceman

They are also making the recommendation coupled with abolishing stamp duty too on PPR so there are other wider questions about those who paid it in recent years too.

The issue around the tax is the value. By the documents released today, you could have 2 people in 2 houses on the same street paying a different property tax rate.

Very confusing stuff.

The_Conductor

I bought in 2001 (or so- I don't remember rightly)- 6 months before the exemption for FTBs came in. I also didn't manage to qualify for the FTB grant. I was gutted. If I get hit for this too- I'll be pissed.

the drifter

yes yes the property tax....i shall be shafted rightly for this....punishment for working hard and building my own house....


sorry...im just a little bit bitter about this...it seems every day you wake up there is a new and creative way for someone else to take my money off me....

shamblertine

How much do you reckon houses will plunge by if they do go ahead with this and the water charges? And when you consider interest rates can only go one way, I think theres going to be a lot more repossessions so I think the government could be shooting themselves in the foot with this.

bluecar

Property Tax - what a joke - I don't know how they can take blood from a stone - just about afforded to buy my own house in the first place.

Some one suggested here to sell your hse and buy a cheaper one. Best of luck to you if ya can afford to do that. If I done that like alot of people out there you would end up being able to buy a mobile home if you are lucky considering that the house I bought 3 years ago is worth 30 - 40K less - which is not that bad!!!

NO TO PROPERTY TAX- WE PAY ENOUGH TAX AND PRSI.

gman2k

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61996907&postcount=280

Don't want to double post....

Carawaystick

Is the property tax just to be on residential property?
Or will it be on land zoned for residential or commercial or industrial etc?

Sar!

Agree with D3PO - will kick up a major fuss if they go ahead with this. Its disgusting they are even suggesting it especially after what they have already done to people over property in this country.

Am paying 2k already per year for pointless Management fees in an apartment - like there needs to be any more annual charges for the privelage of having overpaid for our properties in the first place??

If the Govt. want more money from property they should get it from the greedy developers who put the country in this mess in the first place - not the people who are already paying the price on the daily basis anyway.

The only hope will be that if the Govt. do choose to go ahead with this insanity then it may well be the one thing that actually gets the Irish people motivated to stand together and push for a massive change.

mrgaa1

In the north the property tax known as rates is solely based on house price. When it was introduced a few years ago it was based on the house price on Jan 1 2005. The house price was/is determined by the land registry and thats it. You can appeal it and they'll come and visit and listen etc... but by and large thats it: non-payment meant jail time. Currently water rates are paid through this tax but they are looking to separate it.
I think the main issue regarding tax is that there are so many. Would it not be better to tax as much at source to minimize more afterwards?

Could, for example, the model for the tax system in the north work in the south?

The_Conductor

They are trying to seperate as much as the central taxation (taxation at source) up North as possible at the moment- as with a falling subvention from the London- the crucial services which should be delivered to consumers often simply cannot be afforded. This means the economic cost of supplying water, refuse collection etc- will in future have to be borne by the end user, according to the manner in which they use those services.

This actually makes perfect sense- and encourages people to economise- why use 200ltrs of water a day- when you have to pay for it- when a little common sense can reduce this to 120litres (or whatever). However this will only work for services which can be measured- eg. if they decided that everyone would pay EUR200 per house per year for water- half the country would leave taps on permanently out of spite........

The further argument against simply bumping up direct taxation- is its a further disincentive against working. If there is a charge for everyone (albeit a reduced charge for social welfare recipients), people are forced to acknowledge the cost associated with water magically appearing from the spigot......

I don't see how we're going to get away without somehow securing the tax streams for the government. We need to trim expenditure over the next 3-4 years by between 10-12 billion, and concurrently increase taxation by 6-8 billion. Its a bloody difficult balancing act. Everyone is going to hurt, one way or the other- everyone. The thing that is annoying everyone at the moment though- is the politicians are refusing to lead by example. I wish John O'Donoghue would ever do the right thing, and resign........

D3PO

mrgaa1 wrote: »

In the north the property tax known as rates is solely based on house price. south?

If this is the template I would love to see somebody in negative equity challenge this in the courts. Arguing that their house worth is nothing to them.

Im sure they would lose but it would be interesting all the same

kmick

It could even be argued that for most people who bought recently the bank has the deeds and technically owns the house so it should be them paying it. I mean the asset is on their books.

Repolho

I don't get peoples objection to the Property tax (other than those who have already paid significant amounts of stamp duty).

Remeber the commission on taxation are trying to re-balance the tax take. They are trying to move taxes away from income to other sources. So in effect we will all be paying the same amount of tax (nation as a whole, perhaps not individuals).

Paying tax is you civic duty as a citizen of the state.

D3PO

Repolho wrote: »

I don't get peoples objection to the Property tax .

Hmm I paid 24k in stamp duty 4 years ago as an FTB. Thats why I have a problem with a property tax.

Fine if they come out and say Ive got a 24k exemption to said tax then I have no problem with it but we all know that isnt going to happen.

There are a couple of hundred thousand people in negative equity in this country, and it could be argued this is down to the government who failed to do their civic duty in protecting the irish people from such a bubble, due to failure to have proper regulation in the financial sector, by offering tax breaks on property etc.

Nobody objects to having to pay tax, but when they look to tax something like this given the situation in the countries property market the only thing their likely to get is a revolt outside government buildings.

Theboinkmaster

D3PO wrote: »

There are a couple of hundred thousand people in negative equity in this country, and it could be argued this is down to the government who failed to do their civic duty in protecting the irish people from such a bubble, due to failure to have proper regulation in the financial sector, by offering tax breaks on property etc.

It could also be argued that those same people should have researched their purchase properly, and if had done so, would not have ended up in negative equity. Some research on the internet would have shown we were in an obvious bubble which was certainly going to collapse. Whilst the government was incorrect obviously with their lack of regulation etc - people need to stop playing the blame game and accept responsibility for their own actions.

Anyone who bought 1998 - 2008 bought in a bubble and should have known the consequences. A property tax, once administered correctly and fairly, is a great idea to broaden our tax base.

faceman

Repolho wrote: »

I don't get peoples objection to the Property tax (other than those who have already paid significant amounts of stamp duty).

Remeber the commission on taxation are trying to re-balance the tax take. They are trying to move taxes away from income to other sources. So in effect we will all be paying the same amount of tax (nation as a whole, perhaps not individuals).

Paying tax is you civic duty as a citizen of the state.

Running an efficient public service is the duty of the government. Thats what needs to be looked at before targetting people with a tax they cant avoid.

D3PO

Repolho wrote: »

. So in effect we will all be paying the same amount of tax (nation as a whole, perhaps not individuals).

.

So you think this is fair ? Ah sure its the same amount of tax who cares if the low and middle income earners are the ones screwed over, sure were only paying the same amount of tax as a country.

If this government were serious about balancing the tax take out they would start by getting rid of artists exemptions, the rebate to sports persons, remove the cinderella rule (If your irish you should pay tax in ireland just as it is for americans) etc etc

D3PO

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

It could also be argued that those same people should have researched their purchase properly, and if had done so, would not have ended up in negative equity. Some research on the internet would have shown we were in an obvious bubble which was certainly going to collapse. Whilst the government was incorrect obviously with their lack of regulation etc - people need to stop playing the blame game and accept responsibility for their own actions.

Anyone who bought 1998 - 2008 bought in a bubble and should have known the consequences. A property tax, once administered correctly and fairly, is a great idea to broaden our tax base.

Dont get me wrong Im not saying people arent to blame for their current prediciment, Im just pointing out a government that thinks by rubbing their noses in it further will face very stiff opposition to such reform.

Do you really believe people will accept a property tax lying down ?

mrgaa1

D3PO wrote: »

If this is the template I would love to see somebody in negative equity challenge this in the courts. Arguing that their house worth is nothing to them.

Im sure they would lose but it would be interesting all the same

I hear what you are saying but no-one is challenging it because there was a form of rates previous to it so they just changed system. I live in a dormer house and pay the same as someone who has a full two storey house down the road. We pay the same rates because there is a public website showing the value of each and every house in the north. Farmers are capped at £80k or something like that if they have outhouses etc...

Personally a property tax is a way to go but it should be linked to a BER cert with some exemptions thrown in for older buildings.
On a slightly different view a major overhaul of all tax's is needed. A bite the bullet scenario for a year or two to get the hump removed. Whatever it takes because the longer it goes on the worse it will get.
Does anyone know - and I dont' want to get off topic too much - if Ireland left the EU could they, in theory, wipe all debt out - reset to zero?

20goto10

Property tax is a very good idea. It's the way they are planning to implement it that is wrong. The solution is very simple, the tax should apply to new purchases only. Anyone who currently owns a home should not have to pay it. Otherwise people who have already paid stamp duty are being double taxed and people who bought on the premise of being exempt from stamp duty are also getting shafted as they are now lumped with a tax they thought they'd never have to pay.

The problem with applying it to new purchases only is that it will be a very slow inflow of revenue. And they need instant cash. They're just not thinking long term. Here's a way to have an instant €90bn, scrap NAMA and let the corrupt banks fail and pay for what they have done to the economy. We, the tax payers, already own our own bank. We can all quite happily bank with them while all the others go down the toilet.

D3PO

mrgaa1 wrote: »

Does anyone know - and I dont' want to get off topic too much - if Ireland left the EU could they, in theory, wipe all debt out - reset to zero?

No it doesnt work like that. Irelands debt is to bondholders and not the EU.

D3PO

20goto10 wrote: »

Property tax is a very good idea. It's the way they are planning to implement it that is wrong. The solution is very simple, the tax should apply to new purchases only. Anyone who currently owns a home should not have to pay it. Otherwise people who have already paid stamp duty are being double taxed and people who bought on the premise of being exempt from stamp duty are also getting shafted as they are now lumped with a tax they thought they'd never have to pay.

.

I have no problem paying property tax and I think it should apply to all homeowners not just new buyers,

HOWEVER I believe those of us that as FTB's paid stamp duty should have an exemption from a property tax until the equivelent in property charges matches that of which Ive paid in stamp duty.

20goto10

D3PO wrote: »

I have no problem paying property tax and I think it should apply to all homeowners not just new buyers,

HOWEVER I believe those of us that as FTB's paid stamp duty should have an exemption from a property tax until the equivelent in property charges matches that of which Ive paid in stamp duty.

Thats a solution too They have recommended the tax is deferred for the first 7 years of your mortgage, but that will not cover the stamp duty in most cases.

harsea8

I just can't get my head around how they are going to value each house....basically, the market is dead, so what will they base the property value on?

mrgaa1

could be it based on what it will cost to rebuild it - is this how house insurance works? plus location ? Perhaps a square foot price per town/region ?

D3PO

harsea8 wrote: »

I just can't get my head around how they are going to value each house....basically, the market is dead, so what will they base the property value on?

clearly they will value on the "long term economic value". So we are all screwed just like NAMA will overpay

D3PO

20goto10 wrote: »

Thats a solution too They have recommended the tax is deferred for the first 7 years of your mortgage, but that will not cover the stamp duty in most cases.

I suggest there should also be an exemption to those who own a house but are unfortunatly out of work at the moment.