New property tax

D3PO

smccarrick wrote: »

Why wouldn't they introduce it? If they don't- they need to find the money elsewhere- its as simple as that.

Nobody would argue the money has to be found, but there are certainly other ports of calls in terms of expenditure cuts, and taxes that would be both more palatteable and be fairer in terms of allowing households manage their budget in these tough times.

If find it incredible that a government would even consider a tax on primary residences at this time when all you read about in the papers every month is the increased number of persons defaulting on their mortgages.

A property tax insnt balanced in society, we all have a responsibility to plug the financial burden this country has right now.

Id say all hell would break loose on here if it was a proposed "tennants tax" and removal of rent credits.

The_Conductor

First off- they are in fact proposing to remove the credits for tenants.....(along with a load of other credits).

Secondly- while I do appreciate that there are many other ports of call other than property tax- in the context that we have to cut expenditure/boost tax take by 18.5 billion in a 3 year window (to bring us back to EU budgetary constraints- we'd still be massively in deficit even at this)- it just isn't feasible to imagine that we're going to get away without this.

Its all well and good having our carbon tax, our water charges, etc etc- but they are pissing in the bucket- we need chunky measures- and several of them, to make up the 18.5 billion.

Everyone is going to fight their corner- and there is going to be civil unrest before this is out, but we've done the ostrich approach- and thats what has us at where we are now.

DJDC

Why wouldn't they introduce it? If they don't- they need to find the money elsewhere- its as simple as that. At the moment- being popular is not going to enter the equation- they know they are going to get booted to the kerbside in the next election- regardless of what they do- so they could safely implement any number of plans such as these safe in the knowledge they'd not be held accountable, over and above their current level of accountability.

Even more so than those who bought in the last 2-3 years, what about all those with 800-900 year leases in complexes who are paying stupid annual management charges?

I actually think a property tax is needed but I really don't think they will introduce one unless they really have to. The FF party is massively interconnected with the construction industry especially at the county council level where land rezonings for personal gain are rampant. As a party they always have been obsessed with land and the concept of land ownership right from the early days of the state. I think a property tax is deeply against their ideological tendancies.

D3PO

True but even with zero expenditure cuts the reported rates of property taxes being proposed are far too high and if they were to be leglislated for beginning next year alone would deliver almost the full 18 billion over 4 years

now that cant be right thats not a fair and balanced tax system.

Also in terms of this Im interested to know what the proposed property tax implications are on developers with unsold stock. I assume their cronies in the dail would make sure they are exempt ......

di2772

It may not be FF who introduce property tax. If they dont last im sure some of the other parties want to do it too.

WHICHEVER party introduces a property tax, i will make it my lifes work to make sure nobody i know ever votes for them again. I certainly wont be, nor my wife.

The easiest way to avoid a property tax is for everyone to come out and say this. Tell them you will NEVER forget he fact that it was them who introduced the tax. And they will be eliminated from your consideration whenever you vote in future.

The_Conductor

di2772 wrote: »

It may not be FF who introduce property tax. If they dont last im sure some of the other parties want to do it too.

WHICHEVER party introduces a property tax, i will make it my lifes work to make sure nobody i know ever votes for them again. I certainly wont be, nor my wife.

The easiest way to avoid a property tax is for everyone to come out and say this. Tell them you will NEVER forget he fact that it was them who introduced the tax. And they will be eliminated from your consideration whenever you vote in future.

Fine. However- if you are insistant that you don't want to pay a property tax- you have to accept that there will be an additional tax in another area equivalent to the loss in revenue associated with a property tax. We are already at whats known as the marginal tipping point in direct taxation- if we increase direct taxation- people will simply stop working- because its not worth their while. So- you are looking at indirect taxation- and reduction in benefits. How or where would you propose an additional billion in taxation? Stamp duty raised EUR400 million in 2008, the proposal is to increase this property related intake into a solid cashflow of a billion a year in today's tems.

Protest up and down the street by all means- but unless you have an alternate proposal capable of addressing the deficit- you may as well simply get pitch forks and try to attack the Houses of the Oireachtas like a good old mob. Its entirely pointless.

di2772

smccarrick wrote: »

Fine. However- if you are insistant that you don't want to pay a property tax- you have to accept that there will be an additional tax in another area equivalent to the loss in revenue associated with a property tax. We are already at whats known as the marginal tipping point in direct taxation- if we increase direct taxation- people will simply stop working- because its not worth their while. So- you are looking at indirect taxation- and reduction in benefits. How or where would you propose an additional billion in taxation? Stamp duty raised EUR400 million in 2008, the proposal is to increase this property related intake into a solid cashflow of a billion a year in today's tems.

Protest up and down the street by all means- but unless you have an alternate proposal capable of addressing the deficit- you may as well simply get pitch forks and try to attack the Houses of the Oireachtas like a good old mob. Its entirely pointless.

Im perfectly happy with taxes.
In fact i dont think we pay enough tax.
Its equitable treatment i want with the tax system.
Everybody should make up the shortfall, not just householders.

Id even be happy paying a 5% levy on all income (salary, child support, social welfare, BIK etc), so long as everyone, whether they earn €5000 or €5000000 a year pays it across all their income. The more you earn, the more you pay, but everybody pays.

Just do not tax one section of society alone. And that is what property tax is doing.

People will not stop working. Double the tax on the dole every year that a person is on it an we'll see how long before they are out looking for a job.

Trampas

why should social housing be exempt from the tax?

it seems like we are closing the gap between how well off a person is by working and not working where it is not worth your while working cause of all the extra taxes you will have to pay which you wouldn't if you don't get a job.

If I bought my house 30years ago for a few grand who says it is worth €500K today and as to me it is valued at a few grand.

bangersandmash

smccarrick wrote: »

Why wouldn't they introduce it? If they don't- they need to find the money elsewhere- its as simple as that.

Possibly the mostly likely reason for not introducing it now is that it would run contrary to the plan for NAMA. A property tax is likely to significantly further depress the property market - this is a problem when it seems that the success of NAMA is predicated on a return to near bubble values.

Of course it's possible that it's all a matter of perception until NAMA goes through. At that stage property taxes, mortgage interest rate hikes and so on may emerge as it will be too late to renege on deals made to the banks.

The_Conductor

di2772 wrote: »

Im perfectly happy with taxes.
In fact i dont think we pay enough tax.
Its equitable treatment i want with the tax system.
Everybody should make up the shortfall, not just householders.

Id even be happy paying a 5% levy on all income (salary, child support, social welfare, BIK etc), so long as everyone, whether they earn €5000 or €5000000 a year pays it across all their income. The more you earn, the more you pay, but everybody pays.

Just do not tax one section of society alone. And that is what property tax is doing.

People will not stop working. Double the tax on the dole every year that a person is on it an we'll see how long before they are out looking for a job.

Property tax is a tax on property- not on a section of society. Annual car tax is a tax on ownership of a car. Your TV licence is a tax on ownership of a tv. These are all non-discriminatory implements associated with the ownership of an asset- they do not identify any particular segment of society. There are many instances of unfair or unjust taxes- inheritance tax being a very obvious one- but even the more mundane manner annual car tax is based on emissions but those who made an effort to buy fuel efficient cars previously still have to pay based on engine size- is something that deserves to be looked at again (and there have been several well orchestrated campaigns- including a prominent one on the Motoring forum here on boards.ie). Property tax is simply yet another way of bringing in the bacon- albeit specifically designed to be a non-cyclical ongoing revenue resource (unlike most other taxes- with the possible exception of television licensing).

In the public sector at least- the pension and income levy are applied exactly as you suggest (with a smaller percentage at the very lowest levels, in recognition of social justices). It rises to over 12% on the highest earners. This is a fair implementation of what you're suggesting (though the media are very noticeable by not using it as an example).

Doubling the tax on the dole is an irrelevance- as social welfare payments are not taxed, full stop. Perhaps leave JSB as is (seeing as people have paid their stamps towards it), and progressively reduce JSA every 3 months for claimants- to a core level which would be a non-monetary disbursement of food/clothing/heating/electricity- the very basic necessities, not cash. At the moment- when you factor in all the different rights and entitlements- for very many people- they simply are far better off living off the state, than they could ever afford to of their own accord.

If you really think that householders are being delibertly targetted- you're very mistaken. They are but one of several very unpalatable measures on the table.

You claim that you're more than happy to pay more tax- but just not a property tax. You don't think we pay enough taxes. Our headline direct taxation may indeed be relatively low when compared to international norms- however where the Revenue Commissioners excel is in the application of indirect taxation. When you factor this into the equation- while we may not be at Nordic levels of taxation- we're not far off. At least they have something to show for their taxes- unlike here though.......

I'd be perfectly happy to pay a 5% levy on my gross income- if everyone else did- akin to the very many levies we're already paying. I agree with you- it would be far more palatable if it were applied equally across the board on all income everyone earned. It would be a good start- but unfortunately even a levy of this size- is simply insufficient to bridge the gap in the public finances.

A far bigger elephant in the room than even the public finances- and the massive difference between the state the country is now in, and where it was in the 1980s when the IMF bailed us out, is the state of private finances. In the 1980s- the country was bankrupt- but the public at large was unscathed, as we privately owed very little. This time round- the public are in hock to their teeth, and interest rates are going to rise- which is going to hurt even more.

The big problem that people are ignoring- is what is the capacity of the average member of the public to pay even more taxes- when interest rates are set to hike, more jobs are being lost, sentiment is on the floor- and the Commission on Taxation have a lovely 248 point plan for a thorough revision of the tax code- of which the Minister seems myopically to only be focusing on the revenue collection part thereof.......

I'm a homeowner and am going to get burnt by this measure as much as you- or most folk on this forum. In the last 18 months- our gross household income is down almost 40% (and temporarily a further 25%). I can pay my mortgage, put food on the table and pay the bills as they come in. On the other side of the equation- I don't remember when we last ate out, neither of us smoke, and we've been drinking the same bottle of whiskey since last Easter. Most people have radically altered their lifestyles to reflect their new found less wealthy status- but there is very little else that can be cut from many people's budgets. The government with its wonderful income collection plans, has not recognised this. We are at a tipping point- where it simply isn't worth people's while working anymore- which is a major problem. Sure you can say- tax the dole, tax all social welfare payments etc- but where do you stop. After a while you run out of things to tax.

I don't like the idea of a property tax anymore than the next person- but I simply don't see how we can balance the books otherwise. Most other possible income generating measures have in fact been addressed in the report- including several even more unpalatable ones. Its not a shopping list though- its an entire package. If people refute one part of the package (property tax) they need to figure a way of getting that income from elsewhere (in a manner not already in the package.......)

Our poor little country is in trouble........

di2772

I dont understand how you think that a property tax is not a tax on a certain section of society.
Its a tax on the section of society who own houses.

If we need to raise money, tax everybody equally. Simple as that.
There isnt any need to make it anymore complicated.

Let the party, brave enough, implement it and watch what happens to them.