Change Irish Constitution......LISBON

uprising

http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/lisbo...nded_guide.pdf

Lets look at the wording and what Lisbon actually means to us, the people of Ireland.

PAGE 1:
What you are being asked on October 2nd
When you go to vote, you will be asked to vote Yes or No to a proposal to amend the Constitution to allow Ireland to ratify the Lisbon Treaty and implement the provisions of that Treaty.

amend= to alter especially in phraseology; especially : to alter formally by modification, deletion, or addition <amend a constitution>

In simple terms we are asked to vote yes to CHANGE our Irish constitution and surrender our voice over our ultimate destiny, if it is changed, then the government will ratify lisbon (we will not ratify lisbon) because we just gave THEM the power to ratify it, and any and all treaties that follow forever, so in future we the people will no longer be required to vote yes or no on treaties that affect our lives.
We are being asked to throw our voice away forever, give it to the government, let them decide for us without asking us what we think.
So if we vote yes now, when the next treaty comes about our government will be like all the other governments in europe and decide for the people without bothering to ask us the people of IRELAND what we think of said changes.

Page 2:


On referendum day October 2nd, you are being asked to decide whether or not to

change the Constitution of Ireland. This proposed change would allow:

Ireland to ratify the Lisbon Treaty

Ireland to agree to certain decisions in the Area of Freedom, Security and Justice in future with the approval of the Dáil and Seanad
Ireland to agree at the European Council to certain changes to the EU treaties in the future without a referendum but
only with the approval of the Dáil and Seanad

This isn't actually a vote about Lisbon at all really, it is a vote to change our Irish Constitution, so the government can ratify it just like they want to.

But if we vote yes we give away our right to decide on any other treaty after that, we hand control over to the government, we change our constitution and let whoever or whatever is in power at any time in the future to decide for us.
So we are not actually voting for a yes to lisbon, we are voting to change our constitution to allow the government to ratify lisbon and any other treaty after that.
We are giving the Dail and Seanad power to decide yes or no for us for hereafter, no matter what the treaty may be, so in 3, 5 or 10 years time a new treaty may come along, with whatever europe proposes and we the people will have jack sh1t to say about it.
A yes vote is throwing our voice away and leaving it in the hands of idiots, whom most of which havent bothered to even read it.
But this isn't only about now, it's our voice over our destiny gone forever.
So why oh why vote yes, if nothing will change if we vote no, all will continue as is, so we have absolutely nothing to lose by voting NO.

We are being asked to CHANGE the constitution of Ireland, that means CHANGE it forever, CHANGE it so we never get to decide ourselves again, CHANGE IT SO THE GOVERNMENT SAYS YES OR NO FROM THAT POINT ONWARDS, FOREVER, NOT THE PEOPLE.

If all EU member states, including Ireland, ratify the Treaty, then it can come into effect.

If Ireland or any other member state does not ratify the Treaty it cannot come into effect and the EU will continue to operate under its present rules.

Fratton Fred

So voting yes to Lisbon means no more elections in Ireland??

This may be hard to comprehend, but people can actually vote a government out of power.

nesf

Eh, you do realise that only things that do not require a referendum can be passed without a referendum post-Lisbon?

i.e. any major changes that would grant the EU additional competencies would still require a referendum and could not be passed by the Dáil and Seanad alone.


So what this change means is that decisions, which within an Irish context could be dealt with by the Dáil and not require a referendum, will now not require a referendum for EU matters as well (though strictly this is already the case).

ninty9er

This is no different to Nice, Maastricht, Amsterdam, Treaty on the European Community. All required referenda so that the Dáil could ratify the treaties. In effect it means the electorate is ratifying it by proxy.

Go away and hide under the same drivel drowned rock you were hiding under until now.

Dannyboy83

A Qualified Majority Vote (QMV) at present requires 255 weighted votes – that is almost
74% of the total. This system would remain in place until 2014. If the Treaty is ratified,
from 2014, a qualified majority (also to be known as a double majority) will require that
decisions must meet two conditions:
a) 55% of the member states must agree: (for example, while
there are 27 member states, 15 member states must agree);
b) those member states supporting the decision must
represent 65% of the EU population.
In addition, at least four member states must be opposed to a decision in order for it
to be blocked. This ensures that decisions cannot be blocked by just three of the larger
member states acting together.
If there are fewer than four member states opposed to a decision then the qualified majority
will be deemed to have been reached even if the population criterion is not met.

So if nobody is allowed to vote, how do they determine a & b?

marco_polo

So what you are suggesting is that they are in fact trying to alter the constitution via a referendum :eek:

uprising

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So voting yes to Lisbon means no more elections in Ireland??

This may be hard to comprehend, but people can actually vote a government out of power.

No voting yes to lisbon means no more input from us on anything thereafter they pull out of their sh1tepipes.

We'll still have FF or FG to vote for every few years, its just both of them are brown tounges when it comes to europe and ask how high and how long when told to jump from europe.

uprising

marco_polo wrote: »

So what you are suggesting is that they are in fact trying to alter the constitution via a referendum :eek:

On referendum day October 2nd, you are being asked to decide whether or not to

change the Constitution of Ireland.
Page 2 http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/lisbon_treaty_extended_guide.pdf

Yes thats what it says

Stark

All referendums are about changing the Constitution. Irish law says we can't accept an EU treaty unless we add a clause to our Constitution that says we can accept it.

uprising wrote:

So why oh why vote yes, if nothing will change if we vote no, all will continue as is, so we have absolutely nothing to lose by voting NO.

Not all aspects of Nice have been implemented and Nice allows for change but in different ways to Lisbon. What you are voting for is not change vs no change, but change in a different manner to what is provided for under Nice. Eg: double majority qualified voting vs weighted vote majority voting and the like.

Scofflaw

marco_polo wrote: »

So what you are suggesting is that they are in fact trying to alter the constitution via a referendum :eek:

I think what he's saying is that the Amendment we're voting on allows the government to opt in on the "Area of Freedom Justice and Security" without a further referendum - naturally enough, since if we give permission for that at this referendum there wouldn't be any point in another to give permission for that.

I'm not sure why exactly that's so exciting, though. Either way, this thread doesn't belong in the main forum.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

uprising wrote: »

On referendum day October 2nd, you are being asked to decide whether or not to

change the Constitution of Ireland.
Page 2 http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/lisbon_treaty_extended_guide.pdf

Yes thats what it says

Further use of excessive amounts of large text will probably be penalised, though. If your arguments won't stand up at standard font sizes, then they won't stand up just because you've made them big and red, and vice versa.

moderately,
Scofflaw

uprising

Scofflaw wrote: »

Further use of excessive amounts of large text will probably be penalised, though. If your arguments won't stand up at standard font sizes, then they won't stand up just because you've made them big and red, and vice versa.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Well he didn't seem to notice it when it was written at standard font size in black, so I formatted it so he couldn't miss it.
And I didn't know resizing and changing colour could be penalised, maybe you should get together with the other mods and discuss removing the tools that allow me to resize and re-colour specific points in my post.

Your's Sincerly
uprising

uprising

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'm not sure why exactly that's so exciting, though. Either way, this thread doesn't belong in the main forum.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I don't really find it too exciting, if it is passed it clearly states that our constitution will be forever changed, and ANY new treaties will be totally out of our hands and will ratified even if 99.9999% of the people of Ireland don't want it.

And why exactly does this thread not belong in the main forum?, because it's anti lisbon maybe?
This is the political forum isn't it.

Sincerly
uprising

nesf

uprising wrote: »

Well he didn't seem to notice it when it was written at standard font size in black, so I formatted it so he couldn't miss it.
And I didn't know resizing and changing colour could be penalised, maybe you should get together with the other mods and discuss removing the tools that allow me to resize and re-colour specific points in my post.

Your's Sincerly
uprising

Nah, he was probably distracted by the bolded red colour stuff in large fonts going on about how this referendum was going to change our constitution, which is pretty redundant given that all our referendums do that..

marco_polo

uprising wrote: »

I don't really find it too exciting, if it is passed it clearly states that our constitution will be forever changed, and ANY new treaties will be totally out of our hands and will ratified even if 99.9999% of the people of Ireland don't want it.

And why exactly does this thread not belong in the main forum?, because it's anti lisbon maybe?
This is the political forum isn't it.

Sincerly
uprising

Instead of me wasting ten minutes of my life showing you how you why you are wrong, for a change I am going to ask me to show me why you are correct with reference to the treaty.

I have posted the Article in question to get you started.

Article 48
[ex Art. 48 TEU, replaced] [1]

1. The Treaties may be amended in accordance with an ordinary revision procedure. They may also be amended in accordance with simplified revision procedures.

Ordinary revision procedure

2. The Government of any Member State, the European Parliament or the Commission may submit to the Council proposals for the amendment of the Treaties. These proposals may, inter alia, serve either to increase or to reduce the competences conferred on the Union in the Treaties. These proposals shall be submitted to the European Council by the Council and the national Parliaments shall be notified.

3. If the European Council, after consulting the European Parliament and the Commission, adopts by a simple majority a decision in favour of examining the proposed amendments, the President of the European Council shall convene a Convention composed of representatives of the national Parliaments, of the Heads of State or Government of the Member States, of the European Parliament and of the Commission. The European Central Bank shall also be consulted in the case of institutional changes in the monetary area. The Convention shall examine the proposals for amendments and shall adopt by consensus a recommendation to a conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States as provided for in paragraph 4.

The European Council may decide by a simple majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, not to convene a Convention should this not be justified by the extent of the proposed amendments. In the latter case, the European Council shall define the terms of reference for a conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States.

4. A conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States shall be convened by the President of the Council for the purpose of determining by common accord the amendments to be made to the Treaties.

The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

5. If, two years after the signature of a treaty amending the Treaties, four fifths of the Member States have ratified it and one or more Member States have encountered difficulties in proceeding with ratification, the matter shall be referred to the European Council.

Simplified revision procedures

6. The Government of any Member State, the European Parliament or the Commission may submit to the European Council proposals for revising all or part of the provisions of Part Three of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union relating to the internal policies and action of the Union.

The European Council may adopt a decision amending all or part of the provisions of Part Three of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. The European Council shall act by unanimity after consulting the European Parliament and the Commission, and the European Central Bank in the case of institutional changes in the monetary area. That decision shall not enter into force until it is approved by the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

The decision referred to in the second subparagraph shall not increase the competences conferred on the Union in the Treaties.

7. Where the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union or Title V of this Treaty provides for the Council to act by unanimity in a given area or case, the European Council may adopt a decision authorising the Council to act by a qualified majority in that area or in that case. This subparagraph shall not apply to decisions with military implications or those in the area of defence.

Where the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union provides for legislative acts to be adopted by the Council in accordance with a special legislative procedure, the European Council may adopt a decision allowing for the adoption of such acts in accordance with the ordinary legislative procedure.

Any initiative taken by the European Council on the basis of the first or the second subparagraph shall be notified to the national Parliaments. If a national Parliament makes known its opposition within six months of the date of such notification, the decision referred to in the first or the second subparagraph shall not be adopted. In the absence of opposition, the European Council may adopt the decision.

For the adoption of the decisions referred to in the first and second subparagraphs, the European Council shall act by unanimity after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, which shall be given by a majority of its component members.

uprising

Stark wrote: »

All referendums are about changing the Constitution. Irish law says we can't accept an EU treaty unless we add a clause to our Constitution that says we can accept it.

Yes thats what I said, voting yes is actually a vote "yes change our constitution so we cant say no again to anything coming from europe, well the government could, but these clowns/government rattle in their boots when europe says BOO.


Not all aspects of Nice have been implemented and Nice allows for change but in different ways to Lisbon. What you are voting for is not change vs no change, but change in a different manner to what is provided for under Nice. Eg: double majority qualified voting vs weighted vote majority voting and the like.

What's so wrong with the way thing's are now, without lisbon?

Scofflaw

uprising wrote: »

I don't really find it too exciting, if it is passed it clearly states that our constitution will be forever changed, and ANY new treaties will be totally out of our hands and will ratified even if 99.9999% of the people of Ireland don't want it.

All referendums change our Constitution - that's what they do. The only way that an Amendment could prevent our having referendums on EU treaties is to remove the text that triggered the Crotty judgement - which is the bit that says that the sovereignty of Ireland arises from the people of Ireland. The proposed Lisbon amendment doesn't do so, and therefore cannot change whether our Constitution requires referendums on EU treaties or not.

uprising wrote: »

And why exactly does this thread not belong in the main forum?, because it's anti lisbon maybe?
This is the political forum isn't it.

Sincerly
uprising

From your OP, this could have stayed in the main forum,as being about Bunreacht, but in fact it's clearly not about Bunreacht, but about Lisbon.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

uprising wrote: »

What's so wrong with the way thing's are now, without lisbon?

Not enough democratic oversight of what our government gets up to in Europe - something that Lisbon improves.

cordially,
Scofflaw

uprising

marco_polo wrote: »

Instead of me wasting ten minutes of my life showing you how you why you are wrong, for a change I am going to ask me to show me why you are correct with reference to the treaty.

I have posted the Article in question to get you started.

Instead of me wasting time reading your article, you show me how I am wrong.

Dinner

uprising wrote: »

Instead of me wasting time reading your article, you show me how I am wrong.

Thats an actual Article from the actual Lisbon Treaty.

If you're going to advocate a no vote then you should at least know what you're voting down.

BlitzKrieg

read section 4 of article 48 (thats quoted above)

uprising

Scofflaw wrote: »

Not enough democratic oversight of what our government gets up to in Europe - something that Lisbon improves.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Or so they say, so they want us to pass this so we can catch them easier if they get up to no good.

That's on par with the gangland treaty which states you shouldn't wear a balaclava when blowing somebodies head off, and strictly no interfering with witnesses, I know that sounds ridiculous, but what here doesn't?

sincerly
uprising

uprising

Dinner wrote: »

Thats an actual Article from the actual Lisbon Treaty.

If you're going to advocate a no vote then you should at least know what you're voting down.

So one article and I'll have the WHOLE lisbon treaty wrapped up, email it to charlie mc creevy.

Dinner

uprising wrote: »

So one article and I'll have the WHOLE lisbon treaty wrapped up, email it to charlie mc creevy.

No thats one article which specifically states that any changes must be ratified according to each countries constitutional requirements.

Something which you're saying isn't true.

marco_polo

uprising wrote: »

So one article and I'll have the WHOLE lisbon treaty wrapped up, email it to charlie mc creevy.

That is the only part of the treaty that is relevant to your original point.

Scofflaw

uprising wrote: »

Or so they say, so they want us to pass this so we can catch them easier if they get up to no good.

That's on par with the gangland treaty which states you shouldn't wear a balaclava when blowing somebodies head off, and strictly no interfering with witnesses, I know that sounds ridiculous, but what here doesn't?

sincerly
uprising

Well, no, funnily enough democratic oversight isn't something our politicians have mentioned at all.

cordially,
Scofflaw

uprising

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

read section 4 of article 48 (thats quoted above)

4. A conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States shall be convened by the President of the Council for the purpose of determining by common accord the amendments to be made to the Treaties.

The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

Read it, and what?, yes but are you missing the point that we are voting to change the constitution, and in the process taking our voice as a people away and leaving it to those great politicians of all denominations to decide on our behalf.

BlitzKrieg

uprising wrote: »

So one article and I'll have the WHOLE lisbon treaty wrapped up, email it to charlie mc creevy.

no its the article specifying to your complaint that *We'll never vote again* complaint.

In laymans terms nothing changes in the matter of when ireland has a referendum or not.

Cause we have a referendum not because of EU law but because of our constitutional requirement to have one in the specific cases (these being the transfer of soverignty most often)

Since up to this point all EU treaties had some form of power transfer (be it enlargment or other such element) Ireland has always had a referendum.

Under Lisbon we still have a referendum on these issues

FROM THE TREATY ITSELF:

4. A conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States shall be convened by the President of the Council for the purpose of determining by common accord the amendments to be made to the Treaties.

The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

Why do we have referendums?

Its a constitutional requirement

Does Lisbon bypass this?

Well according to the above...NO!

It still respects the constitutional law of its member states

So there is no plot to get rid of referendums.

uprising

Dinner wrote: »

No thats one article which specifically states that any changes must be ratified according to each countries constitutional requirements.

Something which you're saying isn't true.

are you missing the point that we are voting to change the constitution

marco_polo

uprising wrote: »

are you missing the point that we are voting to change the constitution

In Ireland a referendum is by definition a vote on whether or not to change the text of the constitution.

We have had some before:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amendments_to_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

BlitzKrieg

uprising wrote: »

are you missing the point that we are voting to change the constitution

as we have done so for every treaty that has gone by. It is required to change the constitution for every EU treaty, hence it is also required to have a referendum.

There is nothing in that change that says *Ireland never needs to have another vote on a EU treaty ever again DURRR!*