Change Irish Constitution......LISBON

Dinner

uprising wrote: »

are you missing the point that we are voting to change the constitution

No I'm not. We are voting to change the constitution.

But if Lisbon is ratified it does not create a loophole that the EU can use to backdoor legislation that we don't want. It will still have to go through the normal channels, just like it has been since Crotty.

meglome

uprising wrote: »

are you missing the point that we are voting to change the constitution

THAT'S WHAT REFERENDA ARE FOR - ALL OF THEM.

And I'm not getting into this discussion after seeing you do the exact same things over the conspiracy theory's forum, where this fantasy probably belongs.

uprising

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

no its the article specifying to your complaint that *We'll never vote again* complaint.

In laymans terms nothing changes in the matter of when ireland has a referendum or not.

Cause we have a referendum not because of EU law but because of our constitutional requirement to have one in the specific cases (these being the transfer of soverignty most often)

Since up to this point all EU treaties had some form of power transfer (be it enlargment or other such element) Ireland has always had a referendum.

Under Lisbon we still have a referendum on these issues

FROM THE TREATY ITSELF:




Why do we have referendums?

Its a constitutional requirement

Does Lisbon bypass this?

Well according to the above...NO!

It still respects the constitutional law of its member states

So there is no plot to get rid of referendums.

No lisbon doesn't bypass this, voting yes does though,

What you are being asked on October 2nd

When you go to vote, you will be asked to vote Yes or No to a
proposal to amend the Constitution to allow Ireland to ratify the

Lisbon Treaty and implement the provisions of that Treaty.

On referendum day October 2nd, you are being asked to decide whether or not to
change the Constitution of Ireland. This proposed change would allow:

n Ireland to ratify the Lisbon Treaty

n Ireland to agree to certain decisions in the Area of
Freedom, Security and Justice in future with the approval
of the Dáil and Seanad

n Ireland to agree at the European Council to certain changes
to the EU treaties in the future without a referendum but

only with the approval of the Dáil and Seanad

Scofflaw

uprising wrote: »

are you missing the point that we are voting to change the constitution

I'm pretty certain we're aware we're voting to change the Constitution - after all, that's the only reason we ever have referendums. What people are asking you is what change it is that we're making to the Constitution that suddenly changes how we ratify EU treaties.

I've read the text of the amendment - there's nothing in it that would change the current requirement to ratify by referendum.


cordially,
Scofflaw

uprising

meglome wrote: »

THAT'S WHAT REFERENDA ARE FOR - ALL OF THEM.

And I'm not getting into this discussion after seeing you do the exact same things over the conspiracy theory's forum, where this fantasy probably belongs.

http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/lisbon_treaty_extended_guide.pdf

seems like politics to me

marco_polo

uprising wrote: »

http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/lisbon_treaty_extended_guide.pdf

seems like politics to me

As a final act before bed I direct you to the circumstance under which changes to an EU treaty would require a referendum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crotty_v._An_Taoiseach

P. Breathnach

uprising wrote: »

http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/lisbon_treaty_extended_guide.pdf

seems like politics to me

What else would you expect? It is a political matter. And we are in a politics forum here.

uprising

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'm pretty certain we're aware we're voting to change the Constitution - after all, that's the only reason we ever have referendums. What people are asking you is what change it is that we're making to the Constitution that suddenly changes how we ratify EU treaties.

I've read the text of the amendment - there's nothing in it that would change the current requirement to ratify by referendum.

cordially,
Scofflaw

well what's this?

Ireland to agree at the European Council to certain changes

to the EU treaties in the future without a referendum
Start of page 2.....http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/lisbon_treaty_extended_guide.pdf


Maybe read it again
Goodnight all

Scofflaw

uprising wrote: »

well what's this?

Ireland to agree at the European Council to certain changes

to the EU treaties in the future without a referendum
Start of page 2.....http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/lisbon_treaty_extended_guide.pdf


Maybe read it again
Goodnight all

EDIT: just seen your post. This is the bit, presumably:

Ireland to agree at the European Council to certain changes
to the EU treaties in the future without a referendum but

only with the approval of the Dáil and Seanad

You're referring there to the Simplified Revision Procedure, but that only applies to the following:

(a) amendments to certain internal EU policies, provided they do not increase EU competences;
(b) moves from unanimity to QMV (except for military and defence issues) ;
(c) moves to co-decision (ie involving the Parliament in legislation).

Unanimity in the European Council and EP consent is required in each case; national ratification is also required for (a), and any national parliament may veto a proposed decision under (b) or (c). Any proposal to increase the EU's competences would have to use the current "full Treaty" method.

In other words, all that can be done using that method is to change voting methods or amend certain policies (Part Three TFEU only) as long as the latter doesn't increase the EU's competences.

cordially,
Scofflaw

nesf

uprising wrote: »

No lisbon doesn't bypass this, voting yes does though,

What you are being asked on October 2nd

When you go to vote, you will be asked to vote Yes or No to a
proposal to amend the Constitution to allow Ireland to ratify the

Lisbon Treaty and implement the provisions of that Treaty.

On referendum day October 2nd, you are being asked to decide whether or not to
change the Constitution of Ireland. This proposed change would allow:

n Ireland to ratify the Lisbon Treaty

n Ireland to agree to certain decisions in the Area of
Freedom, Security and Justice in future with the approval
of the Dáil and Seanad

n Ireland to agree at the European Council to certain changes
to the EU treaties in the future without a referendum but

only with the approval of the Dáil and Seanad

No. You do not understand what that article is talking about. Let me put it in nice small numbered points.

1) What we are required to hold referendums on with respect to EU treaties is not EU treaties themselves. The Crotty Judgement etc, is about sovereignty. No piece of legislation may be passed that would alter Ireland's sovereignty without a referendum. Lisbon alters Ireland's sovereignty that's why we have to have a referendum on it.

2) The areas of Freedom, Security and Justice can, so long as there is no alteration of Ireland's sovereignty, be legislated on without a referendum. If a new treaty was created, only dealing with these and didn't change our sovereignty by creating new competencies for the EU then we could under our present law and constitution before Lisbon pass it without a referendum.

3) Lisbon doesn't actually change how we must ratify EU law (i.e. what we need to have referendums on, since we don't actually have to have a referendum on any change to the EU, only changes that alter Ireland's sovereignty). What it changes is how the EU can be changed, i.e. that we can make changes piece by piece rather than lumping all these changes together into a large treaty every five or so years. Any of these individual changes must be passed in accordance to Irish Law and our constitution, which mandates that any change to the constitution itself or changes in Irish sovereignty must be passed by referendum.

BlitzKrieg

But even simplified revision process still has

6. The Government of any Member State, the European Parliament or the Commission may submit to the European Council proposals for revising all or part of the provisions of Part Three of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union relating to the internal policies and action of the Union.

The European Council may adopt a decision amending all or part of the provisions of Part Three of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. The European Council shall act by unanimity after consulting the European Parliament and the Commission, and the European Central Bank in the case of institutional changes in the monetary area. That decision shall not enter into force until it is approved by the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

which puts us right back at square 1. The reason we needed to have referendums is a constitutional requirement, if the constitution does not require it (no sharing of sovergn power, no expansion of the EU, no alteration of the constitution etc etc) then we wouldnt have a referendum anyway

uprising

Ok this is how I see it, I didn't read the whole lisbon treaty, I am only working from this , ok my problem is,

What you are being asked on October 2nd

When you go to vote, you will be asked to vote Yes or No to a
proposal to amend the Constitution to allow Ireland to ratify the

Lisbon Treaty and implement the provisions of that Treaty.

So we must amend (change) our constitution to ratify Lisbon, is it 100% necessary to amend our constitution in order to ratify Lisbon, and if so, WHY?

My next problem is what are we being asked to change about our constitution?

On referendum day October 2nd, you are being asked to decide whether or not to
change the Constitution of Ireland. This proposed change would allow:

n Ireland to ratify the Lisbon Treaty

n Ireland to agree to certain decisions in the Area of
Freedom, Security and Justice in future with the approval
of the Dáil and Seanad

n Ireland to agree at the European Council to certain changes
to the EU treaties in the future without a referendum but

only with the approval of the Dáil and Seanad

If Ireland or any other member state does not ratify the Treaty it cannot come into effect and the EU will continue to operate under its present rules.

So we are being asked to change our constitution so that certain changes to the EU treaties in the future without a referendum but
only with the approval of the Dáil and Seanad, which says certain changes to EU treaties in the future WILL NOT NEED A REFERENDUM, it only need's the approval of the Dail and Seanad, now this I see as a free for all in the heirarchy of europe to send order's down to our sheeple government, whoever that government may be, and inform them that the treaty is being changed slightly and we must approve it, our sheeple government fall's over itself to approve it, then another slight change is made, then another and another, and another slight change may be that our "legally binding assurances", if they are ever even brought into force are no longer viable, so out the window they go.
Then a few more slight changes are made, and as all good lap dogs do, obey/approve anything waved in front of them. After a few slight changes, one bigger change happens to suit the mood and as all the slight changes built a very solid foundation for a bigger change which has been schemed in an underhand manner, that can be passed or rushed through, with a "terrorist" attack or similar anywhere in the E.U., the treaty looks a lot different and things are a lot different than promised or visioned.
People are being scared into signing our liberty away, with blackmail concerning money and finance, which has people worried in these financially uncertain times.
We need europe, blah,blah,blah, the same cartel who want us to ratify Lisbon are the same people who manufacture financial up's and down's, they control us through the world bank(s), raise and lower interest rates, loan out lot's of money, demand it back at any time, cause panic and confusion, they control us with their manufactured money games.
We all owe them, they own our houses, cars and live's already, and they want a little bit more.

Ask yourself where are we heading, and what will it be like when we get there, can you see a better place for your children to grow up in, or was it better when it was just plain Ireland, we really don't know where this road will take us, I predict a darker future, 20 years from now gestapo type euro-police may stop and scan you to see if you have broken any new draconian laws equal to any U.K. law 20 years from now, which is frightening at present when you realize what they can already do under new existing laws.

Daftendirekt

uprising wrote: »

So we must amend (change) our constitution to ratify Lisbon, is it 100% necessary to amend our constitution in order to ratify Lisbon, and if so, WHY?

Yes, because of the Crotty Judgement, which stipulates that our constitution must be amended in order to allow significant changes to EU treaties to be made. At present this requires a referendum, and if Lisbon passes... it will still require a referendum.

The actual changes to be made can be read here, from last year's referendum. I can't find on for this year's, but I'd imagine it'll be the same.

What concerns you about that?

If you read the constitution itself, you'll see a list of 23 amendments , four of which were made in order to allow the ratification of other EU treaties. There's really nothing unusual about this (in Ireland at least, some other EU countries would disagree).

PopeBuckfastXVI

uprising wrote: »

Ask yourself where are we heading, and what will it be like when we get there, can you see a better place for your children to grow up in, or was it better when it was just plain Ireland

http://www.childabusecommission.com/rpt/

tbh.

Daftendirekt

uprising wrote: »

Ask yourself where are we heading, and what will it be like when we get there, can you see a better place for your children to grow up in, or was it better when it was just plain Ireland, we really don't know where this road will take us, I predict a darker future, 20 years from now gestapo type euro-police may stop and scan you to see if you have broken any new draconian laws equal to any U.K. law 20 years from now, which is frightening at present when you realize what they can already do under new existing laws.

Eh... this should probably go in Conspiracy Theories?

It's just baseless paranoia.

marco_polo

Daftendirekt wrote: »

Eh... this should probably go in Conspiracy Theories?

It's just baseless paranoia.

Thats where he usually hangs out.

ixtlan

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

http://www.childabusecommission.com/rpt/

tbh.

Thanks, I was about to start typing about "just plain Ireland", but I think that links says it all.

Document1

I know I am not Irish and maybe I should just shut my mouth... but does anyone even realise how much European money has been put in to the Irish development in the past 20 years? Where I am from people are starting to look at the Irish as greedy people who only want the benefits of being in the Union.... please dont shoot me now

PopeBuckfastXVI

Document1 wrote: »

I know I am not Irish and maybe I should just shut my mouth... but does anyone even realise how much European money has been put in to the Irish development in the past 20 years? Where I am from people are starting to look at the Irish as greedy people who only want the benefits of being in the Union.... please dont shoot me now

STOP THREATENING MEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111eleven

meglome

Uprising I don't know how old you are but I remember 'just plain old Ireland' and it was ****e.

meglome

Document1 wrote: »

I know I am not Irish and maybe I should just shut my mouth... but does anyone even realise how much European money has been put in to the Irish development in the past 20 years? Where I am from people are starting to look at the Irish as greedy people who only want the benefits of being in the Union.... please dont shoot me now

41 billion euro for free according to our Dept of Finance.

http://www.finance.irlgov.ie/documents/publications/other/BES2008.pdf

Table 10

evercloserunion

Was anyone else reminded of http://www.timecube.com/ whan they read the OP?

Daftendirekt

marco_polo wrote: »

Thats where he usually hangs out.

Oh.

Document1 wrote:

I know I am not Irish and maybe I should just shut my mouth... but does anyone even realise how much European money has been put in to the Irish development in the past 20 years? Where I am from people are starting to look at the Irish as greedy people who only want the benefits of being in the Union.... please dont shoot me now

Actually, it's a good point. While I wouldn't advocate it as a reason to vote yes, it certainly makes you wonder where all the hostility towards the EU comes from.

Penny Farthing

uprising wrote: »

http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/lisbo...nded_guide.pdf

Lets look at the wording and what Lisbon actually means to us, the people of Ireland.

PAGE 1:
What you are being asked on October 2nd
When you go to vote, you will be asked to vote Yes or No to a proposal to amend the Constitution to allow Ireland to ratify the Lisbon Treaty and implement the provisions of that Treaty.

amend= to alter especially in phraseology; especially : to alter formally by modification, deletion, or addition <amend a constitution>

In simple terms we are asked to vote yes to CHANGE our Irish constitution and surrender our voice over our ultimate destiny, if it is changed, then the government will ratify lisbon (we will not ratify lisbon) because we just gave THEM the power to ratify it, and any and all treaties that follow forever, so in future we the people will no longer be required to vote yes or no on treaties that affect our lives.
We are being asked to throw our voice away forever, give it to the government, let them decide for us without asking us what we think.
So if we vote yes now, when the next treaty comes about our government will be like all the other governments in europe and decide for the people without bothering to ask us the people of IRELAND what we think of said changes.

Page 2:


On referendum day October 2nd, you are being asked to decide whether or not to

change the Constitution of Ireland. This proposed change would allow:

Ireland to ratify the Lisbon Treaty

Ireland to agree to certain decisions in the Area of Freedom, Security and Justice in future with the approval of the Dáil and Seanad
Ireland to agree at the European Council to certain changes to the EU treaties in the future without a referendum but
only with the approval of the Dáil and Seanad

A complete mispresentation.

We already allow changes to EU treaties without a referendum. We always have. Referenda occur only with specific cases as outlined in the Crotty judgement in 1987.

The rules remain completely unchanged.

Those changes that could be made without a constitutional amendment (and hence a referendum) remain as before. Those changes that in the past required a constitutional amendment will continue to require a constitutional amendment.

The amendment to Article 29 does not change that at all. We keep the same procedure as is there already.

uprising

Daftendirekt wrote: »

Eh... this should probably go in Conspiracy Theories?

It's just baseless paranoia.

Eh.... I did post this in CT and was told it's not the political forum

meglome

uprising wrote: »

Eh.... I did post this in CT and was told it's not the political forum

The problem you have here is the Lisbon treaty is a detailed legal document. So there can be no real conspiracy as the text is there for all to read. If you have a question about what something in the treaty means then this is the place for it. You asked some questions and it was explained that what you thought was incorrect.

bubonicus

Will the Irish constitution not be over ruled by the european constitution after we vote on the lisbon treaty. After all is that not what the Lisbon Treaty is about, The creation of the European State with it's own constitution that is for all it's member states.

Therefore the Irish constitution will never be ratified again because we will be under the European constitution? What would be the point in having a unified Europe if all the member states still held their own constitutions.

Also as a member state of Europe will we get a vote for changes to the European constitution after Lisbon?

I might have all that wrong...please educate me. my head is going to explode!!!!

PopeBuckfastXVI

bubonicus wrote: »

Will the Irish constitution not be over ruled by the european constitution after we vote on the lisbon treaty. After all is that not what the Lisbon Treaty is about, The creation of the European State with it's own constitution that is for all it's member states.

Therefore the Irish constitution will never be ratified again because we will be under the European constitution? What would be the point in having a unified Europe if all the member states still held their own constitutions.

Also as a member state of Europe will we get a vote for changes to the European constitution after Lisbon?

I might have all that wrong...please educate me. my head is going to explode!!!!

No that's not correct. Lisbon amends the existing EU treaties which set out how the EU is run. EU law has overridden Irish law for years, but believe it or not, the Irish constitution still overrides EU law, and will continue to do so. That is why we can't bring in an EU law that is unconstitutional in Ireland without changing our constitution by referendum, however in it's entire history I'm not aware of the EU ever having brought in a law that was unconstitutional in Ireland.

Now as for the EU state, there were some state like elements (flags, anthems, formal constitution) in the previous proposed EU Constitution, it's the one you heard about France and Holland voting 'No' to. They objected
to those state like elements, and so those state like elements were removed. What was left over was the parts of the EU Constitution that changed how the EU was run, the reform of the institutions, and this was put, with some new stuff into the Lisbon treaty (which is why sometimes you hear politicians calling it the reform treaty).

Any time there is an amendment to the existing treaties after Lisbon, or even a brand new treaty altogether, we will still vote in a referendum to approve it, if it makes similar changes to a treaty before Lisbon, i.e. if it extends the power of the EU.

You might be interested to know that Lisbon allows us to change the rules of the EU in a much easier fashion than before, because we don't have to draft a massive treaty, but instead can change it a bit at a time (while still voting on any bit that increases EU power).

This means that if there are any parts of Lisbon, or even the existing treaties that we don't like, we can push to have them changed immediately, rather than waiting 10 years or so for a massive treaty.

So in summary, does Lisbon create an EU state? Absolutely not, Lisbon was specifically drafted to remove anything that looked like an EU state. Does the status of EU Law in relation to Irish Law, or the Irish Constitution change with Lisbon? Absolutely not, the relationship between EU law and Irish law and the Irish Constitution will remain the exact same after Lisbon.

meglome

You know it really is difficult to please some people. He gets an answer he doesn't want to hear, even though it's completely factual then goes off to the CT forum and makes out that basically we're out to get him.

uprising wrote: »

Yea very true Run to da hill's, they don't like our type round there, it's full of YES MEN, yes sir, no sir.
Just keep posting your great posts here, there's plenty of people who read your post's and don't reply or aren't registered, out of them some will actually use their brains and dig a little deeper regarding your post's, without the need to turn to the official boloxology for answers.