White collar exodus?

optocynic

Listening to Conor Brophy this morning, he highlighted what my wife and I have been considering for several months. The proposed increase in Income tax (i.e. abolishment of the PRSI ceiling) will hit educated, middle class workers hardest. This includes engineers, software developers etc. What is supposed to be the backbone of our future economy.

I would have a much higher standard of living in the US, where I could easily transfere since I work for a multinational, as does my wife. The only reason we stay, is because this is our home.

Can this country really handle a mass exodus of the educated and talented work-force?

Jaysoose

This country is doomed, anybody with a transferrable skill will leave the country at the first oppurtunity when the whole NAMA/new tax regime is finalised and implemented.

I honestly think it is a numbers game now and when people calculate the amount of money they have left after the shower in goverment have taken their pound of flesh and realise that they are screwed they will leave the country.

I know for one that i shall be doing this and wont look back.

wes

Its not something I have personally considered seriously, but it wouldn't be hard for me. Have no Wife or kids, so nothing to stop me really, if things get much worse.

Pull_a_tition

optocynic wrote: »

Can this country really handle a mass exodus of the educated and talented work-force?

Since the foundation of the state Ireland has had an exodus for educated people. The country didn't collapse. People didn't starve, There wasn't riots on the streets.

In fact pre boom, people knew their neighbours.... etc, etc, etc

Nodin

optocynic wrote: »

Can this country really handle a mass exodus of the educated and talented work-force?

The nation has had to handle it a number of times over the last few hundred years, the 1980's being the most recent episode.

FlutterinBantam

Hmmm ......... Let's not big up our talents and education too much shall we.

Plenty more people coming up the pipeline who can and will do just as good a job as you.

I understand your angst, but to think any class or coterie of the populace is indispensable is a tad off the mark.

The country won't collapse in a heap if you all leave, no sir it certainly will not.

techdiver

Nodin wrote: »

The nation has had to handle it a number of times over the last few hundred years, the 1980's being the most recent episode.

Yes, but in fairness workforce didn't have the same level of education. In the 1980's we relied on different sources of employment. In more recent times, much more people are university educated with a higher earning capacity, which in turn yields a higher tax return. Loosing these people will have a worse effect then loosing people of lower income thresholds or people on social welfare.

Jaysoose

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Hmmm ......... Let's not big up our talents and education too much shall we.

Plenty more people coming up the pipeline who can and will do just as good a job as you.

I understand your angst, but to think any class or coterie of the populace is indispensable is a tad off the mark.

The country won't collapse in a heap if you all leave, no sir it certainly will not.

Fair point but its possibly more accurate to say that the country is going to collapse in a heap regardless of the people leaving as the people in control of the ship DO NOT HAVE THE FOGGIEST IDEA what they are doing and are still sitting on their hands hoping it sorts itself out.

Possibly the most important piece of legislation in the history of Ireland (NAMA) has not been finalised due to summer hols for the dail, the required cuts in spending/increases in taxes are STILL NOT finalised while this country borrows millions every day to keep the ship going...WHY?

The continuing saga of corruption/abuse of public finances ignored by the powers that be....ETC ETC...

No accountability on any level for any mistakes/mismanagement, if anything they have rewarded themselves with pensions golden handshakes.

I think it matters not a jot if all the IT/Engineer/Doctors/Degree Holders walked onto a boat today as we are screwed NOW and nothing is changing.

Alledgedly the rest of the world is starting to sort itselves out, our leader is still pretending it wasnt their fault and are doing NOTHING but blame a world economic crisis while they sit on their arse talking to Ryan tubridy.

Breathe....breathe....

Galwaybuzz

Totally agree with this , im a graduate, who when i was in college , worked day and night and volunteered to do work experience so that i could move up the ranks in my field of work.

I became very skilled and always had ideas to offer and still have, i got to the top but coundn't go any further because of this recession leading to a jobs freeze!!!

Right now even to this day, i am watching talented men and women leave this country because it has let them down!!!

Young people are the future of this country and how it is shaped . If anything Ireland should be doing more and more to keep these skilled people here in their own country!!!!

Afterall it is these people that will get us out of this mess !!!!

optocynic

Nodin wrote: »

The nation has had to handle it a number of times over the last few hundred years, the 1980's being the most recent episode.

Not like this. The exodus in the 1980s was of uneducated (non-third-level qualified) people... If we are to be competitive, we need to keep and create much more qualified people.

A mass exodus of the white collar workers would leave the state in a shambles.

thebman

Pull_a_tition wrote: »

Since the foundation of the state Ireland has had an exodus for educated people. The country didn't collapse. People didn't starve, There wasn't riots on the streets.

In fact pre boom, people knew their neighbours.... etc, etc, etc

Yeah but the main tax earner back then was mostly farming/fishing and construction.

The government says it wants to depend on software developers etc... and develop a knowledge based economy of research jobs but it is quite obvious taxing them out of the country is a stupid idea if that is your plan.

P. Breathnach

optocynic wrote: »

Not like this. The exodus in the 1980s was of uneducated (non-third-level qualified) people...

That was the 1950s and 1960s. In the 1980s there was massive emigration of graduates.

If we are to be competitive, we need to keep and create much more qualified people.

A mass exodus of the white collar workers would leave the state in a shambles.

The state is already in a shambles, created while they were here.

optocynic

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That was the 1950s and 1960s. In the 1980s there was massive emigration of graduates.



The state is already in a shambles, created while they were here.

What's your point?
We should let the guys who didn't even do the leaving cert take over?
A novel idea!..

Do you think the people that took the time, and made the effort to finish school and college should pay for the dossers they shared a class with in secondary school?

dvpower

optocynic wrote: »

A mass exodus of the white collar workers would leave the state in a shambles.

A mass exodus to where?
UK are in a pretty poor state too at the moment.
USA, Canada, Australia and the other usual places have much stricter immigration policies than they did in the 80s.

Nodin

optocynic wrote: »

Not like this. The exodus in the 1980s was of uneducated (non-third-level qualified) people... If we are to be competitive, we need to keep and create much more qualified people.

You'll find you're wrong there. The the high level of education of those going and the effect of the "brain drain" was heavily discussed at the time.

thebman

dvpower wrote: »

A mass exodus to where?
UK are in a pretty poor state too at the moment.
USA, Canada, Australia and the other usual places have much stricter immigration policies than they did in the 80s.

You'll find they'll recover much faster than us though is the problem and although they've been hit, at least they appear to be bottoming out where as we still seem to be in free fall.

As soon as people have somewhere to go they will leave and that time isn't far away.

techdiver

Nodin wrote: »

You'll find you're wrong there. The the high level of education of those going and the effect of the "brain drain" was heavily discussed at the time.

The proportion of the workforce with a third level education in the 80's is nowhere near what it is now. Just because it was discussed as such then, doesn't mean it is the same situation as now.

This graph below will outline this:

optocynic

Nodin wrote: »

You'll find you're wrong there. The the high level of education of those going and the effect of the "brain drain" was heavily discussed at the time.

So, you are saying this has happened before? And we are going to let it happen again, nay, make it happen again?

As for the comments on where to move to. I personally have offers from my company to move to their US/Americas operation. I know most are not that lucky, but a software developers job in Bangalor would give a better standard of living than here Ireland, especially after the next budget!!

P. Breathnach

optocynic wrote: »

What's your point?

Mainly that it is best to get the facts straight. The 1980s is not so far lost in the mists of time that it should be forgotten.

We should let the guys who didn't even do the leaving cert take over?
A novel idea!..

All people have the right to participate in a democratic society.

Do you think the people that took the time, and made the effort to finish school and college should pay for the dossers they shared a class with in secondary school?

Those who got the benefit of higher education have, by that fact, received more from society than those who did not.

I know many people who make a valuable contribution to society. Some have received a third level education, and some have not. I also know many people who seem to me not to make a valuable contribution to society. Some of them have received a third level education, and some have not.

I think you should reconsider your attitude to people who did not receive a higher education.

optocynic

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Mainly that it is best to get the facts straight. The 1980s is not so far lost in the mists of time that it should be forgotten.



All people have the right to participate in a democratic society.



Those who got the benefit of higher education have, by that fact, received more from society than those who did not.

I know many people who make a valuable contribution to society. Some have received a third level education, and some have not. I also know many people who seem to me not to make a valuable contribution to society. Some of them have received a third level education, and some have not.

I think you should reconsider your attitude to people who did not receive a higher education.

I didn't receive a higher education, I earned it! And it wasn't easy. And now that I am working, are you claiming that I am not contributing to society? My last tax payment (raping) says otherwise.

Tell me why I should pay more than a person without third level qualifications!

Nodin

techdiver wrote: »

This graph below will outline this:

In 1979/80 the population was approx 3.4 Million. In 2006 it was 4.24 million. You'd have to show the proportion of those with third level has increased, not just the numbers.

Nodin

optocynic wrote: »

I didn't receive a higher education, I earned it! And it wasn't easy. And now that I am working, are you claiming that I am not contributing to society? My last tax payment (raping) says otherwise.

Tell me why I should pay more than a person without third level qualifications!

Because you earn more and besides, you still come out with more.....

thebman

Nodin wrote: »

Because you earn more and besides, you still come out with more.....

He did work to get that though and is already paying more so why should he pay more than the more he is already paying?

optocynic

Nodin wrote: »

Because you earn more and besides, you still come out with more.....

And how do you justify that as fair?
I worked hard to earn what I have, why should I pay a disproportionatley higher level of tax than others? You think it is OK for me and others like me to be penalised for success.

It is also very patronising for you to assume that the lower paid/educated should be carried by the middle and upper class. I am not the smartest person in the room, anyone could achieve what I have, it just took effort.

I deserve to come out with more!

dvpower

optocynic wrote: »

Not like this. The exodus in the 1980s was of uneducated (non-third-level qualified) people... If we are to be competitive, we need to keep and create much more qualified people.

A mass exodus of the white collar workers would leave the state in a shambles.

Do you not remember the 'Hire them before they hire you' campaign?
The government at the time were actively advertising our graduates to foreign based firms, with big billboard adverts in Dublin airport.

Nodin

thebman wrote: »

He did work to get that though and is already paying more so why should he pay more than the more he is already paying?

I iz confussed now.

techdiver

Nodin wrote: »

In 1979/80 the population was approx 3.4 Million. In 2006 it was 4.24 million. You'd have to show the proportion of those with third level has increased, not just the numbers.

I can't believe that people don't accept that we have a higher level of education now than we had in the 80's. Think of one major factor, which was fees. People from working and middle class backgrounds could not afford third level education in the past as they do now.

http://www.education.ie/admin/servlet/blobservlet/des_educ_trends_chapter05.htm

The above outlines the participation levels.

optocynic

Nodin wrote: »

I iz confussed now.

You iz dodgin' the question too!!!

optocynic

dvpower wrote: »

Do you not remember the 'Hire them before they hire you' campaign?
The government at the time were actively advertising our graduates to foreign based firms, with big billboard adverts in Dublin airport.

What's your point?

Do you not agree that our qualified people would have a higher standard of living in another country? The US for example?

Nodin

optocynic wrote: »

I deserve to come out with more![/font]

You do come out with more, even with your higher tax bracket. I'm unsure what you're trying to say.

I'm actually not aware of a country that doesnt tax in a progressive fashion so if you fancy hopping off to one, you're out of luck.

asdasd

Not like this. The exodus in the 1980s was of uneducated (non-third-level qualified) people... If we are to be competitive, we need to keep and create much more qualified people.

A mass exodus of the white collar workers would leave the state in a shambles.

Even though the rhethoric at the time was that the working classes were bearing the brunt of emigration the reality was that the graduates were. I was a child and I remember uncles leaving. In the late nineties I left. my brother left. Many college friends left. WE could possibly have got jobs in ireland at that time. Most people came back. I did for a while.

The IDA published a famous photo of Irish graduates - the Young Europeans. Advertising the increase in Irish graduates. A few years later some paper tried to look them up, and 50% had left. this was the early nineties . The year of Irelands biggest emigration ( net) was 1992. So even if a smaller amount of people graduated, more left.

As for now - the increase in Irish education has seen an increase in non-technical subjects relative to the entire graduate workforce ( which is in turn related to the IT recession since 2001; that and outsourcing). Most business graduates would be better at home, where they have some networking, and where a certain school means something, which it wont in England ( The English do the same for their schools). I often see adds for graduates with a "good degree from a good school" in England. They mean English universities. English schools matter too. So if you can network in ireland, network in Ireland. This is the case for banking, not IT etc.

Also I think people emigrate to places with higher salaries regardless of the underlying costs, or unemployment in their home countries ( look how few Germans leave).

Please realise that English salaries are waaay lower than Irish salaries, so you are not going to be able to come over here and live like a dog for a while and then buy the place back there.

That wasnt true in the 80's either. Lastly all European taxes are the same, the US is hard to get into, and the UK has to raise taxes to pay for the present spree of using deficit spending to get them over the hump.