White collar exodus?

techdiver · 08-09-2009 3:04pm

optocynic wrote: »

What's your point?

Do you not agree that our qualified people would have a higher standard of living in another country? The US for example?

Suppose the difference is here is we are more of a welfare state. We pay more to unemployed, elderly, etc, thus we require a higher contribution from those of us in work to fund this.

We also pay far too much to run our public service which adds to this burden. Change to any of this is pretty much impossible in this country as we are far too unionised and the unions do not have the interest of the nation at the top of their list, rather their members come first (that's their job I suppose). The issue is that the unions while representing a minority of the countries workers, hold far too much power in the decision making process of the government and as such policy is driven by this.

Nodin · 08-09-2009 3:04pm

optocynic wrote: »

What's your point?

Do you not agree that our qualified people would have a higher standard of living in another country? The US for example?

You could have a higher standard of living in Sweden or Denmark...and you'd be paying more tax.

Nodin · 08-09-2009 3:07pm

techdiver wrote: »

I can't believe that people don't accept that we have a higher level of education now than we had in the 80's. Think of one major factor, which was fees. People from working and middle class backgrounds could not afford third level education in the past as they do now.

http://www.education.ie/admin/servlet/blobservlet/des_educ_trends_chapter05.htm

The above outlines the participation levels.

Thank you, I found the relevant figures. Enrolement in 3rd level would seem to be up to 50% from 20% in the last 20-25 years.

Doesn't change the fact that a large number of that 20% left though.

asdasd · 08-09-2009 3:10pm

Doesn't change the fact that a large number of that 20% left though.

Qute, he is arguing the opposite of what he thinks is the argument. If we had less graduates, and more of them left, then it was a bigger brain drain than if the same number of graduates were to leave now. So on their bikes.

( That said I suspect that the 20% of graduates were smarter and did tougher degrees than the 50% now? If all was fair they were in the top 20% of IQ, a graduate now is in the top 50% of IQ. Since all is not fair there must be people with IQ's lower than average in University now).

techdiver · 08-09-2009 3:11pm

asdasd wrote: »

Please realise that English salaries are waaay lower than Irish salaries

This is not true of all sectors. Software development jobs pay more in the UK than they do in Ireland for example, especially in the contracting area.

techdiver · 08-09-2009 3:13pm

Nodin wrote: »

Thank you, I found the relevant figures. Enrolement in 3rd level would seem to be up to 50% from 20% in the last 20-25 years.

Doesn't change the fact that a large number of that 20% left though.

I'm not disagreeing that they left I'm just saying we have a larger proportion that could now leave also. I hope it is not the case though.

asdasd · 08-09-2009 3:14pm

Software development jobs pay more in the UK than they do in Ireland for example, especially in the contracting area.

The biggest contracting areas - as in IT for banking - are reserved for the "Good university" boyos, and involve living in London. In the rest of the country a salary of 40K is considered real good.

optocynic · 08-09-2009 3:14pm

Nodin wrote: »

You do come out with more, even with your higher tax bracket. I'm unsure what you're trying to say.

I'm actually not aware of a country that doesnt tax in a progressive fashion so if you fancy hopping off to one, you're out of luck.

Once again, not my point at all. Tax progression is the only way it's going to work, but this attitude that because I earn more, I should pay much more is ridiculous. I pay over 3 times the average in tax.
I do not use ANY public service 3 time more than an average person!

Hence, I am 'sponsoring' 3 times more welfare payments than the average.
Now, since I don't actually get 3 skanger slaves every month to do my bidding (yes, they exist, I live near Clondalkin!!)... I want to know what I get out of my tax payments.

I am happy to pay my share, if it is used in the best interest of me and the country! Are you saying it is?.... Seriously???

techdiver · 08-09-2009 3:19pm

asdasd wrote: »

Qute, he is arguing the opposite of what he thinks is the argument. If we had less graduates, and more of them left, then it was a bigger brain drain than if the same number of graduates were to leave now. So on their bikes.

( That said I suspect that the 20% of graduates were smarter and did tougher degrees than the 50% now? If all was fair they were in the top 20% of IQ, a graduate now is in the top 50% of IQ. Since all is not fair there must be people with IQ's lower than average in University now).

That's a ridiculous argument. Regardless of how "smarter" you think the grads of the 80's were, the inward investment in this country is highly dependant on the correct skill base being available, (along with the low corporation tax of course). The knock on effects are felt right across the economy.

Grads leave, less tax take, no staff, no investment, lower corporation tax take, lower consumer spending power across economy, etc etc.....

optocynic · 08-09-2009 3:22pm

asdasd wrote: »

The biggest contracting areas - as in IT for banking - are reserved for the "Good university" boyos, and involve living in London. In the rest of the country a salary of 40K is considered real good.

That is not true. I work in the software area, Telecoms specifically, and there are very high paying jobs all over the UK. I know, because I have been offered them.

Go to the states, and the salaries increase even more... especially when you consider the lower taxes and cost of living.

Your "Good university" boyos is just begrudging, envious nonsense. The last person I hired graduated in Slovakia. I hired him over graduates from the "Good Universities".

techdiver · 08-09-2009 3:23pm

asdasd wrote: »

The biggest contracting areas - as in IT for banking - are reserved for the "Good university" boyos, and involve living in London. In the rest of the country a salary of 40K is considered real good.

Evidence please.

I work in this area and have had many collegues work in the UK and they were educated here. And also, IT and software development are two completely different areas.

asdasd · 08-09-2009 3:23pm

the inward investment in this country is highly dependant on the correct skill base being available, (along with the low corporation tax of course). The knock on effects are felt right across the economy.

True, but not mu point. What percentage of graduates are what the multinationals are looking for these days? The number of technical degrees was very high, it must have fallen. People moved to business during the boom. Marketing, accountancy etc. all necessary - but technical degrees are what powers the whole shebang.

In any case what we are saying is that there was a greater percentage exodus of graduates in the 80's, as there were less graduates . You are not arguing the second case so you should cede the first one.

Nodin · 08-09-2009 3:24pm

optocynic wrote: »

Once again, not my point at all. Tax progression is the only way it's going to work, but this attitude that because I earn more, I should pay much more is ridiculous.!???

Well that is the progressive tax system...

optocynic wrote: »

I pay over 3 times the average in tax.
I do not use ANY public service 3 time more than an average person!

...which means you've loads of money.

optocynic wrote: »

I want to know what I get out of my tax payments.!

Aqueducts, the roads....

Kalashnikov_Kid · 08-09-2009 3:25pm

OP this is a slightly better attempt at a rational Daily Mail-esque belleagured middle class rant than your last effort. A bit more practice and soon you'll have it down to a tee.

optocynic · 08-09-2009 3:26pm

asdasd wrote: »

Qute, he is arguing the opposite of what he thinks is the argument. If we had less graduates, and more of them left, then it was a bigger brain drain than if the same number of graduates were to leave now. So on their bikes.

( That said I suspect that the 20% of graduates were smarter and did tougher degrees than the 50% now? If all was fair they were in the top 20% of IQ, a graduate now is in the top 50% of IQ. Since all is not fair there must be people with IQ's lower than average in University now).

Wow... boy did that post make you look like a clown!
The 20% that went to college in the 1980s were the ones that could afford it. There were some right rich plonkers, I think you might agree!!

Now it is points based, not perfect, but a bit better.

asdasd · 08-09-2009 3:26pm

And also, IT and software development are two completely different areas.

I use it in general terms to mean Software DEvelopment, and everything else. You dont need to argue against me on this. I have worked in the area, and the vast majority of people who worked with me were Public school boys.

And what evidence are you looking for? More public school boys int he city? English wages lower than Irish wages? English Software development wages lower than Irish ones.

Granted the wages levels were the same, or better, here when the pound was at 1.50 euro. but not now.

Noffles · 08-09-2009 3:27pm

Statistics aside, the country is in a shocking state... educated people leaving isn't going to help and comparing this situation the ****hole Ireland was in the eighties is going to amount to nothing...
I'm in telco engineering while my wife is in fund administration in finance,we're considering our options for the new year as I'm sure many families will be, the harder we are hit by the government... you simply can't take from one group all the time... they will and are going to leave.
Commuting and working longer hours for less money is not going to entice anyone, I don't care how much people want the help the country.

asdasd · 08-09-2009 3:28pm

Now it is points based, not perfect, but a bit better.

It was always points based. There was always free education for the poorer sectors. Nearly everybody who went to university with me - in the mid-nineties but just before the end of the fees - was from backgrounds where their parents were not graduates. The points system existed then as it does now.

optocynic · 08-09-2009 3:28pm

Nodin wrote: »

Well that is the progressive tax system...

...which means you've loads of money.

Aqueducts, the roads....

So, do you think I should have to pay even more than I do now?

techdiver · 08-09-2009 3:29pm

asdasd wrote: »

In any case what we are saying is that there was a greater percentage exodus of graduates in the 80's, as there were less graduates . You are not arguing the second case so you should cede the first one.

Grads make up a larger percentage of the entire workforce now than they did in the 80's so your point about the percentage of grads that left in the 80's is irrelevant to the original question from the OP. Grads as a group didn't have such a strong influence on the economy in the 80's as they do now, as different labour skills were called for in Ireland at the time.

optocynic · 08-09-2009 3:31pm

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

OP this is a slightly better attempt at a rational Daily Mail-esque belleagured middle class rant than your last effort. A bit more practice and soon you'll have it down to a tee.

I resent the Daily Mail jibe.... I am a total liberal in all but fiscal issues.
'Values' people that read the Daily mail are racist toe-rags.

optocynic · 08-09-2009 3:33pm

techdiver wrote: »

Grads make up a larger percentage of the entire workforce now than they did in the 80's so your point about the percentage of grads that left in the 80's is irrelevant to the original question from the OP. Grads as a group didn't have such a strong influence on the economy in the 80's as they do now, as different labour skills were called for in Ireland at the time.

They are either too obtuse or too stupid to understand your point!!
Lets see what happened since the 80s... The IFSC, no college Fees, East Point, City West, Intel, HP, Wyatt... lots of third level qualifications there isn't there!!!

OH yeah... and the Internet!

asdasd · 08-09-2009 3:35pm

Grads make up a larger percentage of the entire workforce now than they did in the 80's so your point about the percentage of grads that left in the 80's is irrelevant to the original question from the OP. Grads as a group didn't have such a strong influence on the economy in the 80's as they do now, as different labour skills were called for in Ireland at the time.

Lets say what you said

1) Graduates are the most important workers to the economy in terms of their producivity.
2) There are more graduates now.

We also know:

3) There were less graduates then.
4) Up to 50% of all graduates left Ireland then.

From 3) + 4) we can see that the loss of a sector which is more productive, when there is less of that sector in Ireland, is costlier than the situation now.

In other words if 50% of the 50,000 people who left Ireland in 1992 ( 25K)) were graduates it had a greater effect than the same number leaving now. by your own logic.

And we will never get to those levels. People will stay in Ireland if there is a chance of a job worth more than England. In the Eighties the jobs would pay up to twice the Irish levels, taxes were much lower ( the highest percentage in Ireland was 65%), and there was a UK boom while Ireland floundered in low growth ( not really a recession though).

So the omens are not there. I dont think people will leave that much. If at all.

Nodin · 08-09-2009 3:38pm

optocynic wrote: »

So, do you think I should have to pay even more than I do now?

We're all paying more. None of us like it. I'd suggest being a man and biting the bullet.

optocynic · 08-09-2009 3:38pm

asdasd wrote: »

Lets say what you said

1) Graduates are the most important workers to the economy in terms of their producivity.
2) There are more graduates now.

We also know:

3) There were less graduates then.
4) Up to 50% of all graduates left Ireland then.

From 3) + 4) we can see that the loss of a sector which is more productive, when there is less of that sector in Ireland, is costlier than the situation now.

In other words if 50% of the 50,000 people who left Ireland in 1992 ( 25K)) were graduates it had a greater effect than the same number leaving now. by your own logic.

And we will never get to those levels. People will stay in Ireland if there is a chance of a job worth more than England. In the Eighties the jobs would pay up to twice the Irish levels, taxes were much lower ( the highest percentage in Ireland was 65%), and there was a UK boom while Ireland floundered in low growth ( not really a recession though).

So the omens are not there. I dont think people will leave that much. If at all.

The 80s and today... Apples and Oranges!!!

optocynic · 08-09-2009 3:41pm

Nodin wrote: »

We're all paying more. None of us like it. I'd suggest being a man and biting the bullet.

The bullet has been bitten... several times!.
I want you to explain to me WHY you think it is OK to expect me to pay even more.
I will pay it... but the arrogance of expecting me to pay is disturbing!
I don't get enough out of it to warrant what I currently pay!

Nodin · 08-09-2009 3:48pm

"arrogance"? It's a progressive system. We're all in the same boat. You, as an individual, have not been singled out. You've no valid complaint.

optocynic · 08-09-2009 3:52pm

Nodin wrote: »

"arrogance"? It's a progressive system. We're all in the same boat. You, as an individual, have not been singled out. You've no valid complaint.

OK, here in numbers is my valid complaint.
I earn about 120k a year (if targets are met by the team)
Today, on average I come home with about 5k a month.

Surely this should be more than enough, but after mortgage, childcare, etc. I have only about 200 a month expendable income.

In what kind of a world are we living, when 120k a year does not make you comfortable!!! And it is all due to TAX... and without a PRSI ceiling, and ECB rates going up next year... I will be in trouble.

Should I sell my kid?

Jaysoose · 08-09-2009 3:55pm

Nodin wrote: »

You could have a higher standard of living in Sweden or Denmark...and you'd be paying more tax.

Weak argument, your extra tax money would be contributing to a health service/transport etc that actually work as opposed to the complete shambles we are currently paying for.

deadhead13 · 08-09-2009 3:56pm

"..data being processed by the Revenue and the CSO suggests that over 1/2 million people are poised to leave the country in 2010"

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/exodus-is-expected-among-all-levels-of-society-1879556.html

White collar exodus?

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