White collar exodus?

asdasd

Surely this should be more than enough, but after mortgage, childcare, etc. I have only about 200 a month expendable income.

Hmm, yeah it should be more than enough. My disposable is way higher on less income in the UK ( btw outside banking there are very very few £100K jobs in the UK).

the problem is not childcare, that is too expensive, granted. You must have bought a very very expensive house. Thats your problem. You clearly assumed the boom would continue for ever.

i have some sympathy for middle Ireland, but you are pretty much upper middle Ireland.

P. Breathnach

You have a gross income of €120k and one child. If you are in financial difficlties, you have messed up.

asdasd

Heres a list of jobs from the Guardian for IT in the UK.

optocynic

asdasd wrote: »

Hmm, yeah it should be more than enough. My disposable is way higher on less income in the UK ( btw outside banking there are very very few £100K jobs in the UK).

the problem is not childcare, that is too expensive, granted. You must have bought a very very expensive house. Thats your problem. You clearly assumed the boom would continue for ever.

i have some sympathy for middle Ireland, but you are pretty much upper middle Ireland.

My house is not wildly expensive. I got it for 700K (it was originally floated at 885k).. so a good deal, and we had 100k in equity. We may have to extend it to a 25/30 year mortgage now. If we stay.

And I worked damn hard to be "upper middle Ireland"... but it appears the lower and non-working class are of higher value to this welfare state than the succesful are.

optocynic

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You have a gross income of €120k and one child. If you are in financial difficlties, you have messed up.

Not at all. The base is 75k... benefits (Health, car etc) add up to 18k and are taxed as BIK.. the remainder is 35% of the base for an on target bonus.... taxed at an obnoxious rate, so I may as well not get it!.

asdasd

Not at all. We are saying that you should be comfortable, even if you bought a house. I mean given the extra money you get for child allowance, and the interest relief on a 600K mortgage ( which is not excessive given you salary) you should have more than 200 disposable. right?

What you are earning, mate, is close to twice an English MP's salary. They get other benefits yes, and I think them underpaid, but nevertheless you may not find your standard of living better anywhere else. Ireland is a relatively low tax country as it stands now. I have not idea what you are doing with the rest of the money.

The 5K a month, after tax, is an under estimate, surely? And you are not including child benefit etc. You are saying they are taking 50% of all income, but that is not even the marginal rate. Then you ignore child benefit. hang on...

dvpower

optocynic wrote: »

What's your point?

My point is that your assertion that "The exodus in the 1980s was of uneducated (non-third-level qualified) people." is incorrect.

I remember a newspaper traced the wherabouts of the graduates in the ad and found that of the app. 25, only 3 remained in Ireland a few years after the ad was run.

optocynic wrote: »

Do you not agree that our qualified people would have a higher standard of living in another country? The US for example?

Much of a muchness. I looked up a couple of US salary surveys in my own field (SW DEV) a year or so ago and rates of pay weren't much different to here. Obviously there are major disparities even within the US and the USD/EUR rate skews things.

Kalashnikov_Kid

I say we introduce Poll Tax. One tax for all. As fair as they come. Has been proven to work a treat in recessionary times.

RiverWilde

Well I'm 'settled' in Ireland - for the moment - working and raising my family. I am however, pursuing a degree only a couple more years to go.

The way things are looking in this country the FF/Greens are in power for the sole purpose of looking after themselves and their 'friends.'

If things continue on this tack of taxing the hell out of people because they want to hang onto whatever few quid they have - how dare they! - and cutting services and healthcare etc etc., I cannot see myself living in this country much beyond qualification.

Riv

asdasd

I looked up 120k. He should be getting 6,200 tax, ignoring mortgage interest relief, and child benefit. Which is high in Ireland. So there is no way the mortgage should cost 5-6,000. What is it a 5 year mortgage:

Edit:

Nows sas that base is 75K. I could look that up too.

Hobart

optocynic wrote: »

OK, here in numbers is my valid complaint.
I earn about 120k a year (if targets are met by the team)
Today, on average I come home with about 5k a month.

Surely this should be more than enough, but after mortgage, childcare, etc. I have only about 200 a month expendable income.

In what kind of a world are we living, when 120k a year does not make you comfortable!!! And it is all due to TAX... and without a PRSI ceiling, and ECB rates going up next year... I will be in trouble.

Should I sell my kid?

120K and nett 5K a month are way off. I earn less than 120K gross, but nett more than 5K a month. Your either being fleeced, or your gross is incorrect. 5K a month would be in and around 90K gross.

optocynic

Hobart wrote: »

120K and nett 5K a month are way off. I earn less than 120K gross, but nett more than 5K a month. Your either being fleeced, or your gross is incorrect. 5K a month would be in and around 90K gross.

Read my other post on the breakdown!
Basically my benefits are of no benefit and my bonus's may as well be paid straight to the public sector as a bonus!

asdasd

Basically my benefits are of no benefit and my bonus's may as well be paid straight to the public sector as a bonus!

But you were clearly over-egging the pudding when you said you earned 120K. Who includes benefit in kind in their gross salary?

If the bonus is guaranteed then you should add it . So basically you ended up with the figure from the 75K, and ignored the bonus. That is taxed at a high rate, but you still get half.

I think you want to boast the 120K and moan about the take home pay form 75K.

Anyway 75K should also be enough with one child. There is still the matter of where the other 4,800 goes. Petrol? Childcare ( you didnt mention if your wife worked, if so, you have more income to add to the pot, not less). The 600K mortgage is what?

Hobart

optocynic wrote: »

OK, here in numbers is my valid complaint.
I earn about 120k a year (if targets are met by the team)
Today, on average I come home with about 5k a month.

Surely this should be more than enough, but after mortgage, childcare, etc. I have only about 200 a month expendable income.

In what kind of a world are we living, when 120k a year does not make you comfortable!!! And it is all due to TAX... and without a PRSI ceiling, and ECB rates going up next year... I will be in trouble.

Should I sell my kid?

Is the above the post you are talking about, because I can see no other area in this thread where you breakdown your outgoings. I'm skeptical tbh, as I simply cannot see how you would live your life with only €200 after paying your bills. How do you dress yourself and child? What happens if you get a puncture?

Anyhow, this discussion is not about your hardship on 120K......

optocynic

asdasd wrote: »

But you were clearly over-egging the pudding when you said you earned 120K. Who includes benefit in kind in their gross salary?

If the bonus is guaranteed then you should add it . So basically you ended up with the figure from the 75K, and ignored the bonus. That is taxed at a high rate, but you still get half.

I think you want to boast the 120K and moan about the take home pay form 75K.

Anyway 75K should also be enough with one child. There is still the matter of where the other 4,800 goes. Petrol? Childcare ( you didnt mention if your wife worked, if so, you have more income to add to the pot, not less). The 600K mortgage is what?

I'm not sure I follow you... my point is, I pay enough right now.. and any more would possibly force me to leave my birthplace!
How can our economy recover, if successful people can't purchase anything?

optocynic

Hobart wrote: »

Anyhow, this discussion is not about your hardship on 120K......

I agree... it is about the over taxing of the successful. Who will have no choice but to leave these shores..

asdasd

I'm not sure I follow you... my point is, I pay enough right now.. and any more would possibly force me to leave my birthplace!

My point is that

1) YOu are saying you net is 5K after tax on 120K when it is after tax on 75K
2) I still dont know where the obligitory 4.8K a month goes which leaves you with a mere discretionary 200 euro.

To get back on topic you would be taxed at the same rate in the UK on the equivalent salary, and higher everywhere else.

DJDC

Buying a 700k/600k mortgage when were on a base salary of 75k was crazy and a mistake. Stop blaming everyone else when you made a bad financial decision that has screwed your budget for years to come. You should have just rented or bought or a cheaper house.

As for the person talking about how great irish graduates are, have you actually spent any time working in the UK or US. You have thousands, maybe of millions of Chinese and Indians who are smarter and work harder that the average European graduate. Also graduate participation has increased by 50% but as is pointed out regualry in the UK, outside the top 20/30 universities most end up stuggling to recoup the required investment. Graduate oversupply is rampant and only getting worse.

rs

I work for a US company, where I could potentially move to the US and retain exactly the same job. Several people in our office have done the same over the past few years. It's a reasonably specialized area, so getting a VISA is possible.

Until recently, I have not really considered this. I'm not overly fond of the part of the US where the company is based. Now however, I'm starting to really, really, really think about it and have begun negotiations with my wife

Generally, I appear to be the prime target of the Irish taxman.

1. I earn significantly more than the average industrial wage.
2. I have a large mortgage (300ish)
3. I have 2 young children
4. My wife is a housewife

So far, We've had

- Income levy
- Loss of mortgage interest relief

And now I'm facing

- Further income tax increases
- Child benefit taxation
- Property tax (I paid over 30,000 in stamp duty a few years ago, when trading up)

I'm the first to admit that I'm in a much better situation than most.

But should I really sit back and allow the current government tax the crap out of me to get themselves out of this mess? Or should I spend a few years in the states (remove myself from the Irish Taxation system) and wait a few years and see what happens.

It's bad for Ireland, purely because it's one more tax payer removing myself from the system.

I suspect I'm not the only one thinking about it.

optocynic

asdasd wrote: »

My point is that

1) YOu are saying you net is 5K after tax on 120K when it is after tax on 75K
2) I still dont know where the obligitory 4.8K a month goes which leaves you with a mere discretionary 200 euro.

To get back on topic you would be taxed at the same rate in the UK on the equivalent salary, and higher everywhere else.

Quiet simply
Just over 3k mortgage
Just under 1k on childcare
500 on Car loan
and about 300 on bills, petrol etc.
leaving 200 discretionary.

And I would be paying a lot less in the US.

Electric Sheep

optocynic wrote: »

I didn't receive a higher education, I earned it! And it wasn't easy. And now that I am working, are you claiming that I am not contributing to society? My last tax payment (raping) says otherwise.

Tell me why I should pay more than a person without third level qualifications!

Because you earn more money as a result of that third level education that the taxpayers financed for you.

optocynic

DJDC wrote: »

You should have just rented or bought or a cheaper house.

Renting is dead money, and I bought an expensive house so that my new daughter could grow up in a nice, safe place. Can't put a price on that.

Does no one here (a select few aside) even consider the Status Quo to be flawed! Continue to tax the educated middle class, and it will have drastic ripple effects.

optocynic

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Because you earn more money as a result of that third level education that the taxpayers financed for you.

They are financing the people that didn't pay attention in school a lot more and for a LOT longer. At least I am now contributing. Actually, now I am over-contributing.

asdasd

Renting is dead money, and I bought an expensive house so that my new daughter could grow up in a nice, safe place. Can't put a price on that.

Dude, you are the party reposonsible for the mess. The "renting is dead money" muppets would be, to a man, better off you had realised that negative equity is dead money . You are full of right wing opinions excpet this one - you got yourself in this mess, not the government. You bought a house which ( supposedly) costs 60% of your takehome pay. I didnt so my disposable is higher, my net worth isnt shot, though my gross is lower.

Really. Utter madness.

The US tends not to give out H1Bs to people with kids. And you are probably in negative equity. Thats another reason why the people who want to leave wont. Unlike the US, you cant return your keys and declare bankrupty. You owe the mortgage. YOu will be paying it in the US, and rent, over there. Thats dead money.

DJDC

Renting is dead money

I can only guess you dont work in anything numerate. Only financially illiterate people still think this.

asdasd

I can only guess you dont work in anything numerate. Only financially illiterate people still think this.

unfortunately, given the salary and the levels off bonus, that could be exactly where he works.

optocynic

DJDC wrote: »

I can only guess you dont work in anything numerate. Only financially illiterate people still think this.

True, on this I agree... I meant Rent was dead money, when I made the move.

optocynic

asdasd wrote: »

unfortunately, given the salary and the levels off bonus, that could be exactly where he works.

I work in Telecoms/Software. Too much of a straight talker for finance!

ilovelamp2000

To be honest, Optocynic your problem is your inability to make wise financial decisions not the tax system in the country.

If it's better for you should definitely move away. Don't expect the country to collapse because you leave though.

Given your attitude in this thread, Ireland will probably be a better place after you do leave.

rs

asdasd wrote: »

The US tends not to give out H1Bs to people with kids. And you are probably in negative equity. Thats another reason why the people who want to leave wont.

What about me?

1. I'm not in negative equity despite buying in the boom. We have simply lost a lot of money that we "made" on our previous house. I was never able to spend that money, so I don't lose sleep over it.

Obviously, in hindsight I'd have sold, rented and waited. Easy to say that now. I don't remember anyone predicting the American banking system was going to collapse. We all knew Irish property would fall at some stage, no one knew exactly when.

2. In general, I've been pretty cautious financially. The bank was more than willing to lend me a lot more than I borrowed when trading up. However, I did not want to be over-stretched, a mistake many others seem to have made.

I also don't borrow money to by cars, etc. Why on earth would you borrow money to buy something that is going to plummet in value?

I used to have a surplus of perhaps close to 800 euro at the end of the month. This has been cut dramatically by tax increases. (300 in lost interest relief, probably the same in income levies, etc)

Further increases in taxes and cuts in child benefit etc will probably push me into the red on a month by month basis. I don't live anything close to an extravagant lifestyle, nor do I want to. But, if I'm forced to start having to feed my children spam for dinner, well that's just a little too far

So I am thinking about going.