White collar exodus?

walrusgumble

optocynic wrote: »

What's your point?
We should let the guys who didn't even do the leaving cert take over?
A novel idea!..

Do you think the people that took the time, and made the effort to finish school and college should pay for the dossers they shared a class with in secondary school?

dossers are they? don't tar everyone who did not have the priviledge to go further after secondary school as dossers.

not everyone is as academically bright or have as much interest in school as you. i am sure you are fully aware that its a very different world out in the work force than the comforts of a uni library rehashing in exam situations as much facts as possible. now don't get me wrong, anyone who excels in school should be justly proud of themselves. but jesus after 10-15 years after school / uni, wouldn't one now think its time to stop patting oneself on the back?

your comment speaks of ignorance and smugness. we are suppose to have had the brightest people in power, yet look whats happened, why was this problem not dealt with earlier?

the person you were replying to is simply saying not to get all uptity and think one group of people are as indespensible as the other. your not! people can be replaced, even if it means bringing other nationalities into the country

people pi*s and moan about their rights and entitlements. people moan about the current government yet we the people, the majority of same, on three occassions voted this government into power. granted, there was very little alternative. we the majority fell for the high spending, easy credit, new car every two years, accept and demand high wages. yet we then complain about the country being anti competitive and high price of a glass of water in a bar.

we pis* and moan about our rights and entitlements. well what about our duties?. if you really care about this country, or want change, then we all have to get out as a united and rebuild the country.

like it or not, all people in the country will have to look at themselves. the government can't be attacking the low income earners all the time.

we have all had some good times. but the party is over, for now. quiet your b*tching, fall in line and help get this country moving again. if not, put up or shut up.

hobochris

Any chance this can return on topic and stop being a witch hunt over optocynic's finances?

I also work as a software developer, I'm just starting out though and only have a year under my belt, I've been forced into taking a 5k pay cut, My salary is down to 23-24k which is not exactly desirable given that I bust my balls for 4 years in college and when i want studying I was working to pay for college.

If they do start this "White collar exodus" I may be looking outside Ireland to continue my career as to continue in Ireland would not be desirable given the work Ive put it so far to start on this career.

walrusgumble

optocynic wrote: »

I didn't receive a higher education, I earned it! And it wasn't easy. And now that I am working, are you claiming that I am not contributing to society? My last tax payment (raping) says otherwise.

Tell me why I should pay more than a person without third level qualifications!

becasue you possibly earn more? you possibly have better means? (and, in fairness to you, ironically you probably have more liabilities eg educating family etc without welfare assistance)

what country shares your sense of taxation? america? i don't think anyone likes to see lumps out of their pay package, but its part and parcel of any citizen duties (unless you are a regular to the bahamas and geneva etc)

whats your alernative to taxation and the low income earners? do you want the honest worker feck off onto the dole? where is the incentitive for them to stay in their jobs - dead end jobs?(many of whom are hard working decent people - may not be white collar, or too white collar for your liking)

you would swear that its only a tiny minority in this state that now has either third level/vocation education. its the norm for many workers now to have some sort of post leaving cert qualification (you know this)

rs

I think the real risk will be in 1-2 years time.

I suspect most of the rest of the world will have pulled itself out of the recession.

We will still be neck deep in it given our current financial situation. It really hit us at the worst possible time (at the peak of an economic bubble) and we were totally unprepared for it.

While I agree in principle with our socialist policies, they really hurt our public finances and they will elongate the recession and recovery time here.

I don't think we'll see exodus right away. But the more people out there that lose their jobs, the higher taxes will have to be to support them.

walrusgumble

hobochris wrote: »

Any chance this can return on topic and stop being a witch hunt over optocynic's finances?

I also work as a software developer, Im just starting out though and only have a year under my belt, I've been forced into taking a 5k pay cut, My salary is down to 23-24k which is not exactly desirable given that I bust my balls for 4 years in college and when i wasnt studying I was workig to pay for college.

If they do start this "White collar exodus" I may be looking outside ireland to continue my career as to continue in ireland would not be desirable given the work ive put it so far to start on this career.

hi

just for the record, my posts are not intended to be witch hunts on anyone. i have, like many others have a 3rd level degree and am preparing for professional qualification, and am still just above minium wage, but i get on with it.

i think many are simply saying to EVERYONE that we all feel your pain, but we have no choice but to get on with it. we as a nation as an economy and as a work force need to get back to basics, be honest with ourselves and get the country back to where it belongs. there is no point congratulating ourselves for being wonderful. for many of us, we are in new terrority, and its possible that all that you learned in school/uni etc will go out the window. for many, with pay cuts etc, we are all on level pegging

of any time that our wit, know how, skills and experience is needed. IT IS NOW! naturally we all look out for our selves and our families, but for many this is home and there is no point getting grand dellusions. the other countries may not be there to bail us out, emigration wise this time out, so we gotta, with all the assistance from others, dig our selves out of this hole.

as i say, we all feel everyone's pain, but it might be difficult to get any sympathy when others moan or pick point others as being lazy, to blame for this mess, and why one group should be favoured over the other when it comes to taxes and cuts etc

thebman

Nodin wrote: »

Well that is the progressive tax system...

...which means you've loads of money.

Aqueducts, the roads....

Just because someone has more money than you doesn't mean they should give any extra to the state

thebman

walrusgumble wrote: »

like it or not, all people in the country will have to look at themselves. the government can't be attacking the low income earners all the time.

All the time? Many of these people haven't been earning enough to even contribute tax so aren't being hit at all. They are just being asked to start contributing to the services they use.

Personally I don't have a problem with higher taxes for middle income earners but I expect it to be propionate to what it is now for all income earners. Why should middle level income earners pay even more than they have been already? Oh thats right they shouldn't but people think they'll take the hit for some reason.

rs

thebman wrote: »

Personally I don't have a problem with higher taxes for middle income earners but I expect it to be propionate to what it is now for all income earners. Why should middle level income earners pay even more than they have been already? Oh thats right they shouldn't but people think they'll take the hit for some reason.

I think the general perception of the middle income earner is not that they should not have to pay more taxes.

It's that in my opinion (which I expect is shared), it appears that middle income families seem to be unfairly targeted by new taxes. While these families may appear have high earnings, they also already have very high outgoings leaving little in disposable income which is now being taxed away.

walrusgumble

thebman wrote: »

All the time? Many of these people haven't been earning enough to even contribute tax so aren't being hit at all. They are just being asked to start contributing to the services they use.

Personally I don't have a problem with higher taxes for middle income earners but I expect it to be proportionate to what it is now for all income earners. Why should middle level income earners pay even more than they have been already? Oh thats right they shouldn't but people think they'll take the hit for some reason.

cuts in medical cards those who can't afford medical care, lack of social housing (well its better than 20 years ago, but did we really need those over priced shoe boxes and sad excuses for apartments?), remedial classes, other educational courses. have you seen the conditions of some of the 20 -10 year old council houses and estates?, lack of parks and amenties in the same areas. its not just attacks on the wages side of things, but you are rights about their tax liabilites of the past. and yes like everyone else are expected to make some sort of contribution

granted, the above, mentioned by me can easily apply to many or all middle incomers by the way (in fairness many are probably €50-€200 short of having their kids eligible for the college grants). i am waiting for he usual generalisation that the said houses were destroyed and tarnished by themselves and how they can easily afford satilite dishes:rolleyes:

i agree with you on the proportionality and for it to apply for all earners. i am not blind regard to middle incomers difficulties. i fully acknowledge that by pay day on friday, their wage after tax, will probably be quickly gone on mortgage, rent, bills, school expediture for 1-5 children, their own educational fees, petrol, clothing for themselves and children, food bills, medical care etc. by wednesday they are back to square one.

its unlikely of course, that many will not accept that higher middle incomers - top top earners have got off lightly over the years in other areas of taxation as oppose to wages and salaries - not intending to generalise

thebman

walrusgumble wrote: »

cuts in medical cards those who can't afford medical care, lack of social housing (well its better than 20 years ago, but did we really need those over priced shoe boxes and sad excuses for apartments?), remedial classes, other educational courses. have you seen the conditions of some of the 20 -10 year old council houses and estates?, lack of parks and amenties in the same areas. its not just attacks on the wages side of things, but you are rights about their tax liabilites of the past. and yes like everyone else are expected to make some sort of contribution

granted, the above, mentioned by me can easily apply to many or all middle incomers by the way (in fairness many are probably €50-€200 short of having their kids eligible for the college grants). i am waiting for he usual generalisation that the said houses were destroyed and tarnished by themselves and how they can easily afford satilite dishes:rolleyes:

i agree with you on the proportionality and for it to apply for all earners. i am not blind regard to middle incomers difficulties. i fully acknowledge that by pay day on friday, their wage after tax, will probably be quickly gone on mortgage, rent, bills, school expediture, their own educational fees, petrol, clothing for themselves and children, food bills, medical care etc. by wednesday they are back to square one.

its unlikely of course, that many will not accept that higher middle incomers - top top earners have got off lightly over the years in other areas of taxation as oppose to wages and salaries - not intending to generalise

Lack of amenities applies across the board too though. All housing estates in ireland have shocking conditions from what I can see. I'm in a lucky one (actually considered one of the worst but its got cheap rent) and it has some of the larger green areas.

I laugh at an estate I used to live in called Parklands with 400 euro rent as I never did manage to find the park. This is due to pretty crappy planning laws though (being generous with that description).

Pete4779

asdasd wrote: »

You are saying they are taking 50% of all income, but that is not even the marginal rate. Then you ignore child benefit. hang on...

If he makes 120k a year and earns 60k net, it's 50% of his income!

Pete4779

walrusgumble wrote: »

not everyone is as academically bright or have as much interest in school as you. i

And there is as such no point in rewarding those who are less academically bright, and punishing those who are bright and also successful, unless you want to create as large an uneducated and state-dependent underclass as possible.

If you are punished financially for being smart and having economic achievements, then you will move. There should be no reward for mediocrity. The solution is to get those less bright, less acadmic and less financially successful - who make up a considerable portion of the population - to pay more for healthcare, education that they currently get for free from a smaller and smaller group of "well off" people.

tlev

The abolishment of the PRSI ceiling is going to hit my family hard.

username4321

I have skipped through most of this thread so I apologise if this has already been mentioned but I am 18 about to head into college to study languages and I plan on emigrating as soon as I have my degree.

And I know A LOT of young people who feel the same way, harsh but the cost of living here is so high, many graduates finding it hard to get a job and with tax rates I will be hard-pressed to buy my own house here.

Every single weekend there is a going-away party for someone I know (and I live in a relatively small town) either to Oz or less frequently, Canada. Mostly young people aged 18-25 who have nothing to stay here for.. And bringing their skills elsewhere.

Many of my friends are only staying in this country to get a free education (and even that is at stake) and plan on leaving after. It's a reality that is increasingly being overlooked.

This is going to continue happening

Nodin

optocynic wrote: »

OK, here in numbers is my valid complaint.
I earn about 120k a year (if targets are met by the team)
Today, on average I come home with about 5k a month.

Surely this should be more than enough, but after mortgage, childcare, etc. I have only about 200 a month expendable income.

In what kind of a world are we living, when 120k a year does not make you comfortable!!! And it is all due to TAX... and without a PRSI ceiling, and ECB rates going up next year... I will be in trouble.

Should I sell my kid?

No, but I'll stop wasting my time.

asdasd

If he makes 120k a year and earns 60k net, it's 50% of his income!

Yeah, I said that was bollocks. We worked out that he was really earning about 75K. Which, btw, is a fairly low tax rate - he gets 60K from 75K. Where are the "low tax" people running to?

walrusgumble

Pete4779 wrote: »

And there is as such no point in rewarding those who are less academically bright, and punishing those who are bright and also successful, unless you want to create as large an uneducated and state-dependent underclass as possible.

If you are punished financially for being smart and having economic achievements, then you will move. There should be no reward for mediocrity. The solution is to get those less bright, less acadmic and less financially successful - who make up a considerable portion of the population - to pay more for healthcare, education that they currently get for free from a smaller and smaller group of "well off" people.

first off, no one is suggesting "rewarding" anyone. payment of tax is a duty a citizen has to his country. however, the intersting thing possibly big difference between people who can move away for a better future compared to the low incomers is that at least its an option for those who can move.

you are taking that quote out of context. the original post was basically patting himself on the back for his achievements. thats fine. but then he bigs himself up further by comparing himself to the "dossers". I the quote you have taken was simply to say that not all those who went far are dossers. some are not bright and some may not, due to background, have the same financial and emotional support from their families. you know 4-10 years of further education can takes its tole.

i fully agree with what you say that the bright ones should be enouraged etc, of course i would agree, as you know, one thing no country could take away from us irish;is that whilst we may not have the strongest indigenous economy or natural resources, time and time again, this country has produced highly educated people, unfortunately, from the op it appears many get their arse's too high in the air, with some granduer. what does it mean to be bright and academic? so be able to learn off economics and maths formulas, verses of a poem, to access and be critical of the de valera years? well, one would get a rude awakening when they go out in the real world and work (no doubt you are aware of this)

i agree that the bright should be encouraged to establish themselves here but that does not mean that the less bright should be kicked to the side of the road. the tone, in my humble opinion smacked of contempt and sheer arrogance. further efforts need to assist the less bright to return to college and other forms of education. something, i acknowledge the government did not ignore in the past.

everyone has a duty to pay their taxes, be it from wages/salary,stamp duty, inheritance etc. payment should be proportionate, so i agree that low incomers should pay, but it should be proportionate to their income and liabilities - as same for others. for a very small minority, they have got away with murder with their legal tax avoidance/reduction schemes, late payment of vat and other tax liabilites, deductions in second homes, tax treaties for shoe sized (and nice) apartments that no one really wanted... you get the picture. let me add now, again, this is a tiny minority!

one question, for the less well off, you have enjoyed the school book schemes, milk allowance and medicial cards, how do you expect to get more taxes from them when they can barely pay off the children's books for school? no doubt you have an idea of how much it costs. imagine two or three children. who would likely have a tougher time here, low or middle? or both?

so look lads, he middle incomers are not the only ones feeling the pinch!!!!

the purspose of me making any response here was simple. it was to say that yes , a brain drain would be terrible for a country trying to move into the knowledge based industry. but anyone who thinks the state owes them, regardless of background, needs to cope themselves on, and fast.

if you feel the need to leave, well, the best of luck to you. i hope everything goes well. for those who stay, far play, but no lets get on with these. this country has had problems before, granted, in many ways this unprecedented. but don' t let anyone be foolish enough to think the governement would not think twice about going out to europe and india etc (again) and try and bring more well educated and possible better educated people into this country to fill any potential brain drain. this country will move on

so either give up the why me attitude or enter politics and do something about it. those who have jobs need to be happy, despite the sh*te, that they (me) stil have one and can at least put some food on the table and clothes on the backs. for many of us, this is a huge culture shock. but it was coming. did many of our parents bi*ch and moan about it and throw their tantarums in a deconstructive way?

walrusgumble

username4321 wrote: »

I have skipped through most of this thread so I apologise if this has already been mentioned but I am 18 about to head into college to study languages and I plan on emigrating as soon as I have my degree.

And I know A LOT of young people who feel the same way, harsh but the cost of living here is so high, many graduates finding it hard to get a job and with tax rates I will be hard-pressed to buy my own house here.

Every single weekend there is a going-away party for someone I know (and I live in a relatively small town) either to Oz or less frequently, Canada. Mostly young people aged 18-25 who have nothing to stay here for.. And bringing their skills elsewhere.

Many of my friends are only staying in this country to get a free education (and even that is at stake) and plan on leaving after. It's a reality that is increasingly being overlooked.

This is going to continue happening

the best of luck to you

ei.sdraob

im thinking of moving own business (online services) offshore

i dont see why i should any longer pay ever increasing taxes here to pay bankers and developers (while suffering a cut in public services) on services i provide to 99.999% non irish customers

instead of allowing me to bring money in via "exports" that money will soon be flowing somewhere warmer hopefully with me following suit

i dont see why i should bust my balls any longer and pay more than half of what i earn (not including vat and other stealth taxes on remainder)

i always laugh at the whole "knowledge economy" craic, knowledge can be transferred rather easily if its locked up on computer storage or brains of engineers

ChocolateSauce

Being a dual Irish-US citizen, there are 77+ states I can work in, and Ireland is not one I would want to. I'm totally disillusioned with Ireland tbh; terrible government; terrible political parties; terrible civil service; conservative and backward; I'll be paying vast sums of money in tax due to the mistakes of older generations; annoying national mentality; and so on. I'd also like to live somewhere I'm not discriminated against for being an atheist (and I'm not talking about the only the law, I mean when people hear you don't believe and suddenly start treating you differently).

It will always be my home, but I think there are better places to live. Among the people in college that I've shared these feelings with, they mostly agreed. So yes, there is a serious problem ahead in that many people are considering emmigration.

OldJay

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I'd also like to live somewhere I'm not discriminated against for being an atheist (and I'm not talking about the only the law, I mean when people hear you don't believe and suddenly start treating you differently)

Exactly who do you hang around with? lol
My family is not religious (its not even Christian), and I've never once experienced anything like you say has happened to you.

ChocolateSauce

Justind wrote: »

Exactly who do you hang around with? lol
My family is not religious (its not even Christian), and I've never once experienced anything like you say has happened to you.

It's who I don't hang out with that's the problem, and it happens to others more than to me. Consider yourself either fortunate or oblivious. Living in the beating liberal heart of Ireland, it doesn't happen often, but whenever I spend time outside the city I am acutely aware of it.

OldJay

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

It's who I don't hang out with that's the problem, and it happens to others more than to me. Consider yourself either fortunate or oblivious.

Well be more specific then. In which circumstances does this 'mental persecution' take place?

walrusgumble

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Being a dual Irish-US citizen, there are 77+ states I can work in, and Ireland is not one I would want to. I'm totally disillusioned with Ireland tbh; terrible government; terrible political parties; terrible civil service; conservative and backward; I'll be paying vast sums of money in tax due to the mistakes of older generations; annoying national mentality; and so on. I'd also like to live somewhere I'm not discriminated against for being an atheist (and I'm not talking about the only the law, I mean when people hear you don't believe and suddenly start treating you differently).

It will always be my home, but I think there are better places to live. Among the people in college that I've shared these feelings with, they mostly agreed. So yes, there is a serious problem ahead in that many people are considering emmigration.

no one could disagree with you on the problems this country faces and will face and the at times insurmountable obstacles caused by our past

now, call me stupid, call me delussional, call me naive if you will, but don't we need to keep our people here in order to speak up and challenge the current climate? i say that with full acknowledgement of people's responsibilities and personal, professional and family obligations and commitments by the way, which probably makes my question even more delussional, naive and stupid.

point is, things are not going to change of improve by doing nothing and walking away (please do not take that as an attack on anyone who wishes to leave, like many, its only natural, i myself can only take so much of this current national climate)

A Dub in Glasgo

This appears to be one big whinge from the OP. I was offered a job in Dublin about 4 years ago but refused it because of the high cost of living especially buying a house! I worked out that I would be taxed less in Ireland than here in Britain because of the married couple allowance and lack of Council Tax but that would not make up for the overpriced property market that I would be entering.

I emigrated in 1993 just before the boom started and sometimes I regretted it as Dublin was reasonably affordable in the early '90s. Seems to be the price paying for a booming economy.

gurramok

Its funny reading people giving out about tax increases 'strangling' them when its the fact that they grossly overpaid for a house, living beyond your means comes to mind.

If you earn 100k or 500k and are struggling, just lets say it does not put you in a position to look down on people earning Min wage.

Where will you go to when emigrating?

Rule out Europe, alot higher taxes there.

I wouldn't go to the US, no way. I do not like their extreme capitalist healthcare system and lack of workers rights. You get feck all redundancy when losing that job in a hire and fire environment. Throw in the lack of social welfare and you'll be homeless in no time. (thats the reality).

Then you have Aus/NZ/Canada. Best places to go, just don't expect to get in when everyone else on the planet is in competition with you.

Its hilarious that people from the continent don't emigrate as much as the Irish who give out about tax and the continentals pay huge levels of tax.

And if you do go and bemoan about the 'exodus' of the white collars, there are plenty of immigrants knocking at the door to come here to pay those higher tax levels on less salaries, its a funny old world.

jank

optocynic wrote: »

Quiet simply
Just over 3k mortgage
Just under 1k on childcare
500 on Car loan
and about 300 on bills, petrol etc.
leaving 200 discretionary.

And I would be paying a lot less in the US.

[QUOTE=optocynic;62012932]Renting is dead money, and I bought an expensive house so that my new daughter could grow up in a nice, safe place. Can't put a price on that.

Does no one here (a select few aside) even consider the Status Quo to be flawed! Continue to tax the educated middle class, and it will have drastic ripple effects.[/QUOTE]

Sorry but you bought the expensive house, yet you are moaning that you dont have a disposable income anymore? Nobody forced you to buy anything.

3 grand a month on a mortgage, Christ!:mad:

Regards leaving the country, thing is though it was grand to do it in the 80's but it is a different world now and Irish people will have to compete with Chinese, Indians and so on.

Also alot harder to get into countries like Canada, OZ etc.
A lot of people would like to leave but many will just not make it abroad, they think they are the bees nees but reality will hit them once they realize that they are not as sought after as they thought!

I think it will be good for the country though as it will make us demand more from our public sector.

FlutterinBantam

optocynic wrote: »

What's your point?
We should let the guys who didn't even do the leaving cert take over?
A novel idea!..

Do you think the people that took the time, and made the effort to finish school and college should pay for the dossers they shared a class with in secondary school?

I would say that his point is that your point the the country would collapse in a heap if there was a white collar exodus is questionable to say the least.

yes of course it would not be good for the country, but in my opinion you are over dramatising the effects.

An economy has several intertwined pillars of performance,not all confined to white collar expertise,although that area is very important.

vinylbomb

Some people here really need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Ireland has high wages, and relatively low taxes.

I work in IT, currently in Canada, and have also worked in the UK in the past five years. In terms of actual salary left in my hand after taxes, Ireland was easily the most.
Many will also say cost of living is higher in Ireland, but in my experience relevant to wages it is cheaper than London & Vancouver.

There may be other quality of life issues, but this thread is fairly fixated with the salary numbers at the moment, so I'll leave them out.

ei.sdraob

vinylbomb wrote: »

Some people here really need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Ireland has high wages, and relatively low taxes.

I work in IT, currently in Canada, and have also worked in the UK in the past five years. In terms of actual salary left in my hand after taxes, Ireland was easily the most.
Many will also say cost of living is higher in Ireland, but in my experience relevant to wages it is cheaper than London & Vancouver.

There may be other quality of life issues, but this thread is fairly fixated with the salary numbers at the moment, so I'll leave them out.

your missing the big elephants in the irish room

Canada is not spending billions of taxpayers money and indebting generations with bank bailouts and NAMA while cutting public services (think children's hospitals and education)

Ive no problems and had no problems with paying taxes as long as they go somewhere useful beside paying the ministers more than other heads of state! and other extreme wastes

NAMA alone means adding 25K debt to every man, woman and child in country; anyone has any stats as to what % of population are taxpayers?

/