White collar exodus?

MrMicra

ei.sdraob wrote: »

NAMA alone means adding 25K debt to every man, woman and child in country; anyone has any stats as to what % of population are taxpayers?

/

I don't believe that NAMA will work that way (though as defined currently you are quite right). If the European Competition Commission says that NAMA constitutes illegal state aid it will make it impossible for the ECB to fund it in that form.

The ECB have (has?) also said that they (it?) also expect the valuation model to be realistic and to impose a greater burden of risk upon the banks than the state. Again the opposite of the initial plan which was largely bank designed.

NAMA within the constraints imposed by our membership of the EU and of the euro may work quite well.

DublinWriter

vinylbomb wrote: »

Ireland has high wages, and relatively low taxes.
...I work in IT, currently in Canada

Yeah, and I know which country I'd prefer to be sick in.

When you say relatively low taxes, you should say relatively low direct taxes.

Myself and the missus are seriously thinking of relocating to the UK (she's English).

This decision has nothing to do with the way the country is currently going to hell in a handcart, but down to basic health and education services, services that were inadequate even during the boom times.

She went to visit a relative in Beaumont A&E recently and couldn't believe what she saw.

There is no sense of social cohesion in this country; politics here is all about the parish pump and the acquisition of power and wealth, the nod, the wink and the stroke pulled for a political acolyte.

Unfortunately who we elect reflects on us as a nation.

ei.sdraob

MrMicra wrote: »

I don't believe that NAMA will work that way (though as defined currently you are quite right). If the European Competition Commission says that NAMA constitutes illegal state aid it will make it impossible for the ECB to fund it in that form.

The ECB have (has?) also said that they (it?) also expect the valuation model to be realistic and to impose a greater burden of risk upon the banks than the state. Again the opposite of the initial plan which was largely bank designed.

NAMA within the constraints imposed by our membership of the EU and of the euro may work quite well.

Work well

can you name any endeavor of such scale from a FF government that "works well"

optocynic

walrusgumble wrote: »

becasue you possibly earn more? you possibly have better means? (and, in fairness to you, ironically you probably have more liabilities eg educating family etc without welfare assistance)

what country shares your sense of taxation? america? i don't think anyone likes to see lumps out of their pay package, but its part and parcel of any citizen duties (unless you are a regular to the bahamas and geneva etc)

whats your alernative to taxation and the low income earners? do you want the honest worker feck off onto the dole? where is the incentitive for them to stay in their jobs - dead end jobs?(many of whom are hard working decent people - may not be white collar, or too white collar for your liking)

you would swear that its only a tiny minority in this state that now has either third level/vocation education. its the norm for many workers now to have some sort of post leaving cert qualification (you know this)

Total crap! To all of your previous posts.
Why did these people not partake in the third level education that was FREE (according to asdasd!).
Why do you think I want low earners taxed more, I don't. I think they should have never been paid the salaries they made. It recently cost me 600 quid to get a room tiled. It took one day!

It pushed them into an exuberant lifestyle. 42' plasmas, and nintendo Wii's in every house, full SKY package, and drinking from Thursday to Sunday at 6euro a pint. I feel for these people more than I feel for me. For them the crash will be faster and harder, and a quick smack into reality.

But, where would they be, without the upper/middle class getting their rooms tiled? We need domestic spend. We need money moving. And taxing the people with what you would call 'the most'... is counter-productive.

P. Breathnach

optocynic wrote: »

Total crap! To all of your previous posts.
Why did these people not partake in the third level education that was FREE (according to asdasd!).
Why do you think I want low earners taxed more, I don't. I think they should have never been paid the salaries they made. It recently cost me 600 quid to get a room tiled. It took one day!

It pushed them into an exuberant lifestyle. 42' plasmas, and nintendo Wii's in every house, full SKY package, and drinking from Thursday to Sunday at 6euro a pint. I feel for these people more than I feel for me. For them the crash will be faster and harder, and a quick smack into reality.

But, where would they be, without the upper/middle class getting their rooms tiled? We need domestic spend. We need money moving. And taxing the people with what you would call 'the most'... is counter-productive.

Get a mirror. Look into it. Ask yourself what sort of person you are looking at.

Your attitude to those working in non-graduate occupations is deplorable. Your sense of entitlement is amazingly selfish. You see yourself as saving society by having money that you spend, but see something wrong in a tiler being in a similar position. Is a fully-tiled room of higher moral value than a 42" plasma?

optocynic

walrusgumble wrote: »

i agree that the bright should be encouraged to establish themselves here but that does not mean that the less bright should be kicked to the side of the road. the tone, in my humble opinion smacked of contempt and sheer arrogance. further efforts need to assist the less bright to return to college and other forms of education. something, i acknowledge the government did not ignore in the past.

There is absolutely no difference between me and anyone else in this country.
You are the arrogant one, spouting about the 'hardship' and 'excuses' some have. How patronising are you to assume that anyone is not capable of achievement! It just takes effort.
I did not grow up in a well off place. And as for patting myself on the back... yeah, sure I am, I am proud of myself... and even more proud of my parents. If you continue to make excuses, raise handouts, and pander to welfare... you will help nobody!
I am the one claiming we are all the same... you are the one keeping people down!

optocynic

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Get a mirror. Look into it. Ask yourself what sort of person you are looking at.

Your attitude to those working in non-graduate occupations is deplorable. Your sense of entitlement is amazingly selfish. You see yourself as saving society by having money that you spend, but see something wrong in a tiler being in a similar position. Is a fully-tiled room of higher moral value than a 42" plasma?

Do you really think a tiler should be earning 600 quid a day?
That is more than most people with PHD's... I see a moral issue with over charging!.. and do you honestly think he paid tax on that 600??

And I am not selfish at all, I just expect value for my tax money. And I have never gotten value, with the exception of the partial M50 upgrade!.. But my motor tax paid for that!

OldJay

Think this thread is almost through given the spat between a (self-perceived) Class Warrior and Son of Friedman.

MrMicra

optocynic wrote: »

It recently cost me 600 quid to get a room tiled. It took one day!

And taxing the people with what you would call 'the most'... is counter-productive.

Optocynic you simply HAVE to be more thrifty. That is far far too much. I had the floors in my whole house sanded for €800. It took two fellows two days.
That said you might be better off abroad: Negative equity and high mortgage, highly transferable skill set.
The temptation to walkaway could be irresistable.

For all that I think that many of Optocynic's difficulties are self inflicted I would suggest that a businessperson with a strong technical background is the sort of person Ireland should try and hold here.

These people I would suggest are likely to be in negative equity and in absolute terms alot of negative equity. We simply have to find a solution that will not incentivise the most successful thirties and early forties from leaving (except estate agents they can eff off).

The successful have to pay the taxes OptoCynic because the poor are poor.

I don't know what that solution is by the way but I think that a reexamaination of our bankruptcy laws ins overdue.

asdasd

I don't know what that solution is by the way but I think that a reexamaination of our bankruptcy laws ins overdue.

Wel I tend to agree with that. However bankruptcy follows you around the world, and may limit your emigration prospects. And in reality the US is no picnic for people without green cards. You are tied to a company with the H1B.

As the law stands at the moment, people in Ireland are liable for the mortgage even if the house is taken as collatoral. That is they owe the remainder. You could end up renting, and owing the remainder of the mortgage. It happened to people in the nineties i nthe UK. In the US you hand in your keys, declare bankrupty, and dont owe the remainder. Bankruptcy lasts about a decade. Nevertheless, as it now stand, the mortgage has to be paid by people who are thinking of leaving Ireland.

With all bankruptcies the bankrupt cant have any other net worth, as he owes that to creditors

MrMicra

asdasd you can have your bankruptcy discharged after 1 year by moving to the North.
I don't think that optocynic would have much difficulty in running his down his/her net worth and he/she would find it very easy to start over.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0408/1224244215845.html

asdasd

Wow. Didnt know how lenient the UK regime is. I can see bankruptcy tourism alright.

ilovelamp2000

Optocynic have you ever thought of doing a real life take on Paul Howard's book : "Ross O'Carroll-Kelly's Guide to (South) Dublin: How To Get By On, Like, €10,000 A Day" ?

It could solve all your problems.

MrMicra

asdasd wrote: »

Wow. Didnt know how lenient the UK regime is. I can see bankruptcy tourism alright.

There won't be any problem with it either. Lax bankruptcy is a policy aim of the EU the commission are lobbying for it. You would only have to stay up north a few months as well.

Move to Ballintoy in may of next year, go bankrupt, move to Dublin in September when the Kids go back to school.

Kalashnikov_Kid

optocynic wrote: »

Do you really think a tiler should be earning 600 quid a day?
That is more than most people with PHD's... I see a moral issue with over charging!.. and do you honestly think he paid tax on that 600??

Take it to Joe Duffy. Last time I checked this was a politics forum...

DublinWriter wrote: »

There is no sense of social cohesion in this country; politics here is all about the parish pump and the acquisition of power and wealth, the nod, the wink and the stroke pulled for a political acolyte.

Unfortunately who we elect reflects on us as a nation.

Very well put. We should all reflect on this in the times to come.

Sleepy

MrMicra wrote: »

asdasd you can have your bankruptcy discharged after 1 year by moving to the North.
I don't think that optocynic would have much difficulty in running his down his/her net worth and he/she would find it very easy to start over.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0408/1224244215845.html

If any bankers are reading that, it's okay, there's no need to worry, your government have protected you as usual:

If a person is declared bankrupt by an English court, the law of England and Wales will apply to the general aspects of the bankruptcy but the regulation specifically states that the law of Ireland will apply to property situated here

So useful if your business goes tits up but worthless to the likes of the OP who just spent stupid money on a house during the boom...

asdasd

This decision has nothing to do with the way the country is currently going to hell in a handcart, but down to basic health and education services, services that were inadequate even during the boom times.

Hmm, I am off the opinion that State education is better in Ireland than the UK.

That is more than most people with PHD's... I see a moral issue with over charging!.. and do you honestly think he paid

You are more a class warrior than a free marketeer, I see. I could give you a list as long as my arm of people who earn more than PHD's. Depending on the PHD it could be the majority ( a PHD in a subject like history will not pay well). The reason why this guy was paid 600 a day is because of supply and demand. The reason you get paid the mythical 120K is because of supply and demand - your skillset is less widely available in the general population than the ability to toilet clean, although probably less onerous - so you get paid more. You are not rewarded for the degree, the degree increased the demand for your services.

the inevitable reality of 50% of people going to univeristy is that - even if all university graduates earned more than non-grauates - a significant number of univeristy graduates would be on average, or slightly above average incomes. the more people go, the less graduates earn more than the average.

However not all graduates are going to earn more than a good plumber, a good tiler, a good electrician - not to mention entrepeneurs, and others? Why, because whether you like it or not these jobs are more useful than many graduate degrees, and so people compete for their services, and they get paid more.

You probably overpaid given the present economic reality, though.

asdasd

If a person is declared bankrupt by an English court, the law of England and Wales will apply to the general aspects of the bankruptcy but the regulation specifically states that the law of Ireland will apply to property situated here

Property is, of course, the thing that most normal Irish people would need to run away from. So it allows millionaires off the hook, if they relenquish their property. More madness.

ART6

If the Tax Commission suggestions as outlined in yesterday's newspapers are adopted, I will not be leaving the country. I will not be able to afford the ferry fare:mad:

MrMicra

Sleepy wrote: »

So useful if your business goes tits up but worthless to the likes of the OP who just spent stupid money on a house during the boom...

EurLex wrote:

1. The opening of insolvency proceedings shall not affect the rights in rem [a right in rem is a right over property] of creditors or third parties in respect ... immoveable assets ...- belonging to the debtor which are situated within the territory of another Member State at the time of the opening of proceedings.

A declaration of bankruptcy gives the bank that holds the mortgage the right to sell the house. The right in rem is over the property and not over you. In other words if I declare bankruptcy in the North the court in the North cannot order my house in the south sold in order to pay my debts. The charge is over the house and not over me.

By the way Sleepy the above is not meant to be insulting to you.

walrusgumble

optocynic wrote: »

Total crap! To all of your previous posts.
Why did these people not partake in the third level education that was FREE (according to asdasd!).
Why do you think I want low earners taxed more, I don't. I think they should have never been paid the salaries they made. It recently cost me 600 quid to get a room tiled. It took one day!

It pushed them into an exuberant lifestyle. 42' plasmas, and nintendo Wii's in every house, full SKY package, and drinking from Thursday to Sunday at 6euro a pint. I feel for these people more than I feel for me. For them the crash will be faster and harder, and a quick smack into reality.

But, where would they be, without the upper/middle class getting their rooms tiled? We need domestic spend. We need money moving. And taxing the people with what you would call 'the most'... is counter-productive.

a tad bit of generalisation on the third paragraph. what makes you think "them" lived in an exuberant lifestyle? you are you referring to as "them"? Sky boxes are the norm now. they are no longer the rich mans gadget. they are as common as muck. in 2-4 years time people will have no other choice but to buy flat screen tv's. they are not by the way as dear as you preceive them to be

ya still, even better, your getting hurt in the pocket. i tried to sympathise, but no one likes a moaner who can't accept reality without need to blame others. the "upper/middle class"! its nice to see some of auld english mentality is still alive and well:rolleyes: Fine Gael or Progressive Democrats?

what makes you so certain that tilers and brickies are actually from low income backgrounds. you never know, mammy and daddy might be from blackrock or foxrock or tenure. how do you know they are thickos? - (this is the tone you seem to be given)

we would be better off having a 6-7 well trained tilers than one phd holder specialising, no matter how impressive, a completely useless area.


what age are you?

but still, i can't imagine the middle class or upper looking too clever now. their greed for land, arrogance with the three to four holidays, flashing credit cards that they could not maintain and urge to build tacky sh*te apartments without any decent planning has being one reason this country is the way it is in the state it is. i suppose you will say if it wasnt for them and carry on we would not have had the boom?

(jesus i know many of the big boys like tony o'reilly and dermot glesson believe they are the dogs bollo*, but since when are they royalty?). the way you are going on, it looks like the middle - uppers could not crack an egg.

if you want to be like that then, how could a solicitor justify charge €200-€600 for a thirty minute telephone call and a letter taking no more than 20 minutes? - its because of their skills!!!! are you someone who is more interested in titles and ribbon awards than content?

vinylbomb

ei.sdraob wrote: »

your missing the big elephants in the irish room
/

Not really, I didn't comment on Government spending, simply on the fact that people seem to believe they are financially hard done by living in Ireland. This is not the case in my experience.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Canada is not spending billions of taxpayers money and indebting generations with bank bailouts and NAMA while cutting public services (think children's hospitals and education)
/

Canada has a predicted budget deficit of CA$85 billion over the next five years.
Vancouver will most probably also suffer a large slump due to customary post-Olympic recessions in the immediate area.
http://www.reuters.com/article/usDollarRpt/idUSN2743062120090127

Its no bed of roses here either.

vinylbomb

DublinWriter wrote: »

Yeah, and I know which country I'd prefer to be sick in.

So do I, The UK. They have a expensive service but it works.

Contrary to popular belief there is no universal healthcare in Canada. If you're not a permanent employee for 6 months then you're not entitled to a care card, and will be shelling out of your own pocket for any treatment (unless you have private personal or company cover)

DublinWriter wrote: »

Myself and the missus are seriously thinking of relocating to the UK (she's English).

This decision has nothing to do with the way the country is currently going to hell in a handcart, but down to basic health and education services, services that were inadequate even during the boom times.

Education standards in the UK compare poorly against the Irish system.

Lockstep

optocynic wrote: »

Wow... boy did that post make you look like a clown!
The 20% that went to college in the 1980s were the ones that could afford it. There were some right rich plonkers, I think you might agree!!

Now it is points based, not perfect, but a bit better.

Would disagree with you here;My old man was in college in the late 70s early 80s; he was there on a grant. IIRC grants were brought in under the Lemass era.

There was still state support to go to college back then, for those who could otherwise not afford it.

DublinWriter

vinylbomb wrote: »

Education standards in the UK compare poorly against the Irish system.

Oh please, not that old chestnut again.

It amazes me how most Irish people go around with the pious belief that the educational system in Ireland is better than the UK.

I've yet to see any empirical (and not anecdotal) evidence back that claim up.

jank

optocynic wrote: »

Total crap! To all of your previous posts.
Why did these people not partake in the third level education that was FREE (according to asdasd!).
Why do you think I want low earners taxed more, I don't. I think they should have never been paid the salaries they made. It recently cost me 600 quid to get a room tiled. It took one day!

It pushed them into an exuberant lifestyle. 42' plasmas, and nintendo Wii's in every house, full SKY package, and drinking from Thursday to Sunday at 6euro a pint. I feel for these people more than I feel for me. For them the crash will be faster and harder, and a quick smack into reality.

But, where would they be, without the upper/middle class getting their rooms tiled? We need domestic spend. We need money moving. And taxing the people with what you would call 'the most'... is counter-productive.

600 hundred for a tiler! Did you shop around?
Sure as you spent 700k for a house I bet you can afford it.

Anyway as you work in IT tell me how much would you pay per day for someone that has 10 years exp as an Oracle DBA.
More than 600 euro anyway!:pac:

It works both ways mister!

vinylbomb

DublinWriter wrote: »

I've yet to see any empirical (and not anecdotal) evidence back that claim up.

This article contains figures of Ireland vs the OECD average.
http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/years-of-college-but-theres-only-a-836472000-payoff-1881257.html

Doesnt come out too well from a funding point of view, but we have a large number of school leavers who go on to complete 3rd level.


If you fancy the actual report itself you can find it here.
http://www.oecd.org/document/24/0,3343,en_2649_39263238_43586328_1_1_1_1,00.html

It amazes me how some people sh*tcan anything Irish without proving otherwise.

DublinWriter

vinylbomb wrote: »

This article contains figures of Ireland vs the OECD average.

Hmmm...the articles you quote really only relate to third level education and more significantly show the numbers *going into* third level education. Of course this figure has increased in Ireland...well, that's a surprise considering the dropping of fees here? I think it would be a more balanced statistic to see the numbers *completing* third level education per capita as opposed to *entering* third level education.

Maybe I should have stated it a little clearer - what I meant in my original post was specifically first and second level education - and how people like to think that we have a better system here as opposed to the UK.

I've yet to see stats on that.

DublinWriter

vinylbomb wrote: »

So do I, The UK. They have a expensive service but it works.

That's funny, it didn't cost me anything the last time I went to an National Health GP in Surrey, whereas here in Ireland I'm paying €60 hello money to my local GP.

DublinWriter

vinylbomb wrote: »

Contrary to popular belief there is no universal healthcare in Canada. If you're not a permanent employee for 6 months then you're not entitled to a care card

That sounds like a good system to me...does that apply to just Canadian citizens?