Reinkemeier vs De Wolfe

corkie123

kakak1 wrote: »

I think you need to look at the clip again. De Wolfe went to place both his cards under the muck, he didn't get 25% there when the dealer forcefully stopped him, grabbed the cards & was turning them over at the same time as the German so there was no question of going back to the muck for the cards.

If De Wolfes cards were turned over & are then live why was he not awarded the pot.

IMO this is one of the worst rulings I have ever seen in poker & I know JP & Kelly & other TD's keep talking about decisions in the "interest of fairness". Well that was not considered in this decision. Cards should talk at all times & De Wolfe clearly turned over the winning card & he should have been awarded the pot as his cards NEVER left his hand when touching the muck.

I think it is despicable for the other player to even consider taking this pot & I don't care what level the're playing at. How does he sleep at night.

he did place his cards under the burned cards when the dealer stop him and then turned them over but they did hit the muck and the cards were deemed to be dead because they touched the muck which they did .
now as u said jp kelly and others talk about (in the interest of fairness of the game )
i have always quoted this in past posts on the rules treads
now if i was ruling on this at that moment i would have given the pot to de.wolfe .but lesson learned for him i say .

pkaces

bops wrote: »

the german guy makes a good bluff call and waits for the idiot (who should have figured out that something was up) to fold

germany 1 england 0[/QUOTE

bluff call:eek: I would'nt have believed that untill i seen it ... Is anyone able to translate his interview, did he actually think his Q high was good (De Wolfe may have been drawing to a smaller flush or had air) and changed to an angleshoot when he realised he was beat.

The Improver

imo its the dealers fault, for stopping the cards hitting the muck, he nearly did de wolfe a favour if they had not touched the muck.

Ace2007

The Improver wrote: »

imo its the dealers fault, for stopping the cards hitting the muck, he nearly did de wolfe a favour if they had not touched the muck.

but if the other player asked to see the cards, then dealer must show cards without mucking the hand, surely somebody on here did german and understands what was said, there is no other reason for the dealer to show the cards unless asked.

maloney333

In fairness Ive watched this and i first taught wtf scumbag, then i watched it again and watch the interview with Roland at the end. I really think Roland knows that it was his fault. Still the OP is a muppet.

maloney333

Ace2007 wrote: »

bit harsh calling the OP a muppet - he only posted the video, don't think it was him at the table:rolleyes:

lol i meant Tobias.
Here's what he wrote on 2+2 regarding the incident

Hello, I'm the "random EuroDonk" (thx alot for the nice description btw).

Just to give a short explanation of the hand: I had good reasons to believe that de Wolfe was bluffing here a decenct amount of the time and that he would just openmuck his hand in this case even if his bluff beats my hand (like lots of live players do when they have been caught bluffing).

Just to clarify: I did not say at any point that my hand beats Khi and also never insulted Roland or something (I actually think he's a pretty nice guy and we talked about this hand very friendly just 15 minutes later). I only told him to show his second card or I will not show.

Why do you think Roland showed the Kc btw? Definitely not because he though he had any showdown value at all. Imo he showed his hand to pretent to have had a busted flushdraw and/or to make me show my hand. Directly after his river bet, I instantly grabbed the chips out of my stack as if I'd auto call and started a little conversation with him and said that I had a pretty strong hand that I cannot muck (that part has been cut from the vid). So how can de Wolfe possibly think his Khi has any showdown value at all in a big pot like that after he gets called?!

I admit that the fist pump was a bit out of line and apologize for it (even though poker is war not a playground). All the pent-up tension has been released at that moment as I didn't expect him to show a K or a bluff that beats me and I was trying to stay cool to make him muck his hand. I don't think my behaviour was unethical or something though. It would have been smarter not to show my hand and just take the pot because this would have saved me from a lot of trouble.

Regards,

Tobias

gorrrr72

Roland should have showed both cards or instamucked. I hate waiting to see who has the best hand when a call is made. If your called show, just turn them over, simple as that. IMO Roland's past actions opened himself up to being played as he was in this incident. We've all seen him delay showing his hand or instamuck, when he is called. I'm sure Tobias knew this too.

Having said that, Tobias is an uberarrogant fcuker. "Poker is a war" .....ehh no, poker is a game, with rules and etiquette. If poker was a war Roland would have been within his rights shove a bayonet through his heart. It was a disgraceful angleshoot and no amount of explaining will change the fact that he is pushing the boundaries of the rules there.

The dealer should have asked Roland to turn both cards over when the messing started and I can kind of understand his decision to declare Roland's hand dead. Harsh lesson for Roland but it was of his own making.

The Improver

I instantly grabbed the chips out of my stack as if I'd auto call and started a little conversation with him and said that I had a pretty strong hand that I cannot muck .

Shoot the German angleshooter:mad:

Grafter

Interesting (to me at least) that 2+2 appears less critical of the sly move and more critical of Roland than here.

j10spades

I think he has a point, if player a calls player b, player a def wont show til player b shows or (as some people do) he mucks "knowing he's beat" which shouldnt happen at games of those levels

I think it was Rolands fault for putting his cards in the muck but your man knew what he was doing,fine line between a caution/penalty or no action taken against player a,imo def angleshoot for a considerable pot and yeah he prob should get a kick in the balls for the celebration

As someone else said "in the intrest of fairness" and "cards speak" should apply here as Roland showed his best card and that should speak to claim a pot ..some rules in this game are fcuked up but sure we all take advantage of them sometime or another :rolleyes:

super182

as he said in his post if the sole reason e called was tat he hoped de wolfe wud muck he shud have never turned over his q6 n just took in the pot without the fist pump!! in my opinion a very sly human being after seeing the k n still not muckin but worse stil showin a worse hand!! rely rely disgustin ting t do wait for him t muck his cards den show a worse hand in celebration:mad:

Grafter

super182 wrote: »

as he said in his post if the sole reason e called was tat he hoped de wolfe wud muck he shud have never turned over his q6 n just took in the pot without the fist pump!! in my opinion a very sly human being after seeing the k n still not muckin but worse stil showin a worse hand!! rely rely disgustin ting t do wait for him t muck his cards den show a worse hand in celebration:mad:

Parlez vous anglais?

ianmc38

Disgraceful

thenutpeddler

I find this one of most interesting debates in poker since I got into the game.

On the river you are often given a price. The German dude factors into his price the bluff fold and makes the call. In psychology terms his play is so impressive. He knows in his head that if De wolf is on a bluff, a % of the time his hand wins at show down and if not, there is a chance he can fold thinking he is beat.
Once he decides to implement this type of play, should he not see it through till until there are no more options?

I don't like his play but the question remains, after this debate should it be known as a play or an angle shoot?

I hope this gets resolved cause I personally think that it's an unethical angle shoot that has a risk of being accepted our game.

monoP54

kakak1 wrote: »

I think it is despicable for the other player to even consider taking this pot & I don't care what level the're playing at. How does he sleep at night.

"...on top of a large pile of money, with many beautiful ladies."

Seriously though. I'm tending towards the "smashing his face in" camp.

niceguyedddy

pk aces talks rubish!!

the german i think is correct in what he says but dealer did take cards of ROLAND!!

JUST BAD POKER ETICATE either way!
doyle would have something to say!!!

dibs for roland calming down for the interview though!!

CHD

About time De Wolfe ran bad

Tight Ted

I don't get why the German felt he had to show his hand after De Wolf mucked.

Onsberg

Tight Ted wrote: »

I don't get why the German felt he had to show his hand after De Wolf mucked.

AFAIK in order to be able to claim a pot at showdown(i.e. all action is over), you need to show both cards.

Hitman Actual

thenutpeddler wrote: »

I hope this gets resolved cause I personally think that it's an unethical angle shoot that has a risk of being accepted our game.

If anything, something as blatant as what we see here will just make it more likely that it doesn't become a regular occurrence- players will just make sure to show both cards to win the pot. And they won't be so stupid as to push their cards into the muck, like De Wolfe here.

Reinkemeier has just told the whole poker world that this 'play' exists, and effectively killed it at the same time. He'll have to go back to trying to win the old-fashioned way himself, if he has the game for it.

Jesus Wept

gorrrr72 wrote: »

Roland should have showed both cards or instamucked. I hate waiting to see who has the best hand when a call is made. If your called show, just turn them over, simple as that.

This, hate this showing one card bollox, the rest of us are waiting, we want to get some hands in, show or fold.



Just now I tried bluff calling online and it didn't work at all, at all.
The guy showed both cards and I lost. Sick. :mad:

Gholimoli

Ummmm,interesting...

Macspower

the bluff call is far from a new concept... it was used against a CPT star back in this thread by a top pro.. CPT star Pat Scanlon was good enough to recognise the bluff call as it's a standard CPT move..

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055152870&highlight=star

eagle eye

Macspower wrote: »

the bluff call is far from a new concept... it was used against a CPT star back in this thread by a top pro.. CPT star Pat Scanlon was good enough to recognise the bluff call as it's a standard CPT move..

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055152870&highlight=star

:pac:

aodea

If i have called someone i will make them turn over there hand because even if i have them beat i want to see there hand. what the german does here is pretty poor to be honest its just not cool.

He knows he is beat acts like he has won then turns over his hand to rub it in. and germans wonder why they have a bad global image. Although i went to a german school and cant speak highly enough of the germans i have met.

jbravado

Tight Ted wrote: »

I don't get why ZE German felt he had to show his hand after De Wolf mucked.

FYP

jbravado

aodea wrote: »

If i have called someone i will make them turn over there hand because even if i have them beat i want to see there hand. what the german does here is pretty poor to be honest its just not cool.

He knows he is beat acts like he has won then turns over his hand to rub it in. and germans wonder why they have a bad global image. Although i went to a german school and cant speak highly enough of ZE germans i have met.

Sigh. I cant help but feel my time could be used more constructively.

aodea

aodea wrote: »

He knows he is beat acts like he has won then turns over his hand to rub it in. and germans wonder why they have a bad global image. Although i went to a german school and cant speak highly enough of the germans i have met.

Eh...I don't think it's the poker ethics that did it somehow...

aodea

Deleted User wrote: »

Eh...I don't think it's the poker ethics that did it somehow...

As far as i can remember it is yeah. i mean there were a few gaps alright in german history in school 1939-1945 the germans were on holiday! Thats how it was told in history class in st killians deutsche schule.

Moneymaker

aodea wrote: »

As far as i can remember it is yeah. i mean there were a few gaps alright in german history in school 1939-1945 the germans were on holiday! Thats how it was told in history class in st killians deutsche schule.