Evicting an anti-social tenant that won't move

AJE

Hi, I’m hoping someone can give some advice

I lost my job about a year ago and my wife and i are living back home in one of two cottages my parents own.

They have a tenant next door, very old man and shouldn't be living by himself but that is for his own family to sort out.

The 2 houses have a shared corridor leading to separate back gardens. The gardens where over grown and not looked after but this is where the problem began for me. When looking into his garden you can see a mountain of ash from the fire just dumped in a pile and lots of rubbish around the place. This was not on and I asked my parents to tell there letting agent. That was last Christmas and nothing has been done.

It got me thinking, if the garden is that bad, what is the inside like? I now have pictures to show how bad a bit of the wall inside the back door is and I told my parents it is time to evict the tenant. The same week, last April, they got a serious complaint for the neighbour on his side about anti social behaviour from him to them. He was never pleasant to deal with but I had no idea of the harassment he was giving them. They had invited him to Christmas dinner 2 years ago because he lives by himself. Then they got a dog, for which he kept ‘dog knapping’ and having to seriously argue with him to get their dog back. He then starting abusing the child every time he walked by the house. So that was that, he was to be evicted. However we decided to give him the proper notice. He was living there 3 years so we gave him 120 days.

Last April we gave him his eviction notice. He is still there. Today he gave me abuse about 'hammering my car about the place'. If he came up and said that he thinks I’m driving badly and should be careful in a nice friendly manner I would have accepted it but the abuse he gave me was really not called for that I knocked on his door and told him he has 7 days to move out. I told him I am locking the back gate to the garden today and that on the 8th day I am cutting off his electricity and blocking the chimney. He told me to put it in writing so I did and I told him the police are getting a copy of it also. I went down to the local garda office and the officer said it was grand as long as I am the owner. I told them I am acting on behalf of the owners who are my parents. I know they want him out.

There are a few other things like he got a dog which poops in the common area and he doesn't clean up after it which isn’t nice and the contract states ‘no dogs’. He leaves the gate to the garden open. He is deaf and blares the tv and radio, sometimes till 5 in the morning. He is just a really bad tenant that won’t move out. He has been shown several properties in the mean time by the letting agent but now the letting agent has gone out of business.

So here is the problem, what can we do? I know under law one rents the inside 4 walls of a building so can I board up the windows and doors at the back? We have stopped the direct debit for the rent. We are getting the esb changed over next week into our name and then we are going to cut it off. I'm too afraid to cut the water off for fear I find nasty things in the toilets. Basically I’m looking for someone who has had a similar problem that they solved and advice on what I can do. Thanks

Victor

(a) You need to calm down.
(b) Have your parents talk to a solicitor.
(c) Consider talking to the council litter warden about the dumping in the back garden.
(d) Talk to the council housing department about the anti-social behaviour.

Any improper attempt to evict him by you or to impair him living there, may result in you going to prison.

Be very careful of accusing people of "abuse", when I presume only verbal abuse is involved.

antoinolachtnai

Yup, long discussion with solicitor is required here. Going by the overall story you have told, the garda is incorrect in what he told you.

Also, from what you have said, the notice to quit you have given is invalid. You will have to wait until the Part 4 tenancy has expired before you can give him notice (there are exceptions to this, but they need to be invoked.) Also, the notice has to be in the correct form, and if you are in doubt, you need to consult the solicitor.

Your tenant knows that you are outside the law and will undoubtedly seek (and get) damages from you if you carry on as you propose. Expect the damages to be around EUR 30,000. You could well go to prison as Victor has said, though that would depend on how things went and the attitude of the Garda. Again, you need to talk to the solicitor to understand the consequences.

As well as talking to the solicitor (did I mention that already?) you might talk to an experienced landlord and get their view.

AJE

thanks for the advice

sorry if I come across aggravated, I am upset with the situation but I’m not angry or highly strung over about it so again sorry if it comes across strong, it wasn't meant to

can I ask what someone from the council could do? The house is private housing and not council housing, the rubbish is in a private back garden and I suspect that anyone would say it is not their problem. I will give them a call and ask but I fail to see what they can really do.

I myself am a qualified lawyer, so I understand vaguely about the terms and laws involved and the consequences but I’m not an expert. Unfortunately the first thing you learn in law school is to make money on the small things, such as this so I really hope to leave talking to a solicitor to the last option. Our lectures kept asking “can you sue”? and we would be making up excuse that they can do this or that but our lecture would say, course you can sue, you can sue for anything, you may not win but you can sue.

Antisocial behaviour includes abuse, verbal or otherwise. To be honest I got that info from citizen information (its been a long time since I studied law)

And can I ask about where you saw any legislation that states I could go to prison for impairing his living. I can't find any legislation on this and it would be a help to know as this is would be the document that tells me what I can or can’t do. I have given him his noticed and advised the gardai about the situation and what I am going to do. After 7 days he is no longer our tenant and technically a squatter so am i not entitled to cut off the electricity??? The only thing I am sure about is that I can't force my way into the house. I do remember from land law that a tenant only rents the inside 4 walls of the house and is not entitled to do anything to the outside. That applies to even a lease agreement.

Again sorry, i really do not mean to come across strong. Also, sorry for my ignorance to the area. a 3 year law course only allows six months of land law and that doesn't teach much and since i'm not a landlord, all the help and advice in clearing up what I can do to evict the tenant is very much appreciated.

AJE

anto, can I pm you for some clarification?

AJE

This is what i have so far, i found this on the web at
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/housing/local-authority-and-social-housing/anti_social_behaviour
it states,

Local authorities and housing associations in Ireland have specific powers to evict anyone who is engaging in anti-social behaviour. This means being involved in drug dealing or any behaviour that might cause danger, injury, damage or fear to people living in the area. This might include violence, threats, intimidation or harassment.

So this gives us a definition of anti social behaviour. And the tenant was intimidating, harassing and issuing threats.

Next, ways for a landlord to evict a tenant. Info got from
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/housing/renting-a-home/if-your-landlord-wants-you-to-leave

[FONT=&quot]Terminating a tenancy[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Your landlord must always give you notice when asking you to leave. (Read more under 'Notice periods' and 'Notice of termination', below.) Landlords can ask tenants to leave without giving a reason during the first six months of a tenancy. Landlords can terminate a tenancy that has lasted between six months and four years (a Part 4 tenancy) only in the following circumstances:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]After 3 and ½ years (it is now over that time)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]If the tenant does not comply with the obligations of the tenancy (no pets, house not kept) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]If the property is no longer suited to the tenants’ needs (e.g. overcrowded) (n/a)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]If the landlord needs the property for him/herself or for an immediate family member (my dads step mum is actually moving home and needs a place to live)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]If the landlord intends to sell the property (in this climate?)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]If the landlord intends to refurbish the property (we do now after the way he has kept the place)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]If the landlord plans to change the business use of the property (e.g. turn it into offices). (n/a)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This would all be fine if he would move out, i overheard him once say, 'it will be damn hard to move me'.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]From the same site;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Notice periods[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The length of notice depends on the length of the tenancy. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Length of tenancy [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Notice by landlord[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Less than 6 months [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 weeks (28 days) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 months to a year [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 weeks (35 days)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 – 2 years [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 weeks (42 days) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 – 3 years [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 weeks (56 days)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 – 4 years [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 weeks (84 days)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 years or more [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 weeks (From September 2008, 16 weeks (112 days))[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Landlords can give less notice if the tenants are not keeping their obligations (28 days) or if there is serious anti-social behaviour (7 days). Anti-social behaviour includes violence, threats or intimidation as well as any persistent behaviour that interferes with neighbours. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]We gave 120 days (well the letting agent did) last april and here it says 7 days for anti social behaviour. And anti social behaviour is defined above twice and it fits my situation.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So what is the formal way to issue notice for eviction due to anti social behaviour so I can at least do one thing properly [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

sorry quick edited, we have sent an application to the prtb with 25 euro for a meidator to fix the situation however, they say they keep fogging us off with excuses, latest was they were awaiting information from the letting agent

D3PO

for somebody that trained as a solicitor Im shocked at the way you propose on acting. Your setting yourself up for a fall if you block the chimney or board windows up etc

so you need to follow proper evction proceedings. you say you gave him notice. was it in writing ? is there proof he recieved said notice e.g sent by registered letter ?

if not forget about it because its not worth the paper its written on and turfing him out or doing any of the things proposed will probably cost you over 30 k if he pursues an illegal eviction claim.

So first step for you is to contact the PRTB and start dispute proceedings, Im assuming the tennancy is registered here.

secondly if not done you need to serve written notice and have proof of it suggest registered letter.

and let things go from there.

antoinolachtnai

The citizensinformation database is just not reliable. It is a guideline. It is often plain wrong on the detail.s

This particular page apparently contradicts another page, http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/housing/renting-a-home/types_of_tenancy

My understanding is that you can give notice between the beginning of the 49th month and the end of the 54th month of the tenancy. I could be wrong about this, however. You need to read the act carefully, or talk to a solicitor.

That stuff about local authorities and housing associations is very interesting. However, you and your parents are not local authorities or housing associations, so this doesn't seem to apply to you. In any case, the behaviour you have described would not necessarily amount to anti-social behaviour within the meaning of that Act. It might, but it might not.

The anti-social behaviour you are proposing to evict your neighbour on foot of is his being rude to you about your driving. I am sorry to put it so bluntly, and I know there were other matters in the past, but this is what your account of the thing actually says. To be honest, it will be hard to get this to stick in court or in a tribunal. It sounds like a personal matter between the two of you.

The tribunal will also tend to take the side of the tenant, especially if he is elderly.

If you give proper notice, and he doesn't leave, then you need to go to the PRTB to get an order. There is no other way to evict him. You need to be extremely careful here.

The reason you can get in such big trouble is because interfering with the property is forbidden - see http://www.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Illegal%20Eviction1.doc (the PRTB documents are not always correct word-for-word, but this one provide a pretty good guide). I fear the law has changed since you studied land law.

I am sorry your experience gave you a bad impression of solicitors' charging practices. However, this is a situation where you really need a solicitor, and a good one if you can find one. You need one now, and even if it costs you five grand, which it shouldn't, it will be the best money you spend all year, and will save you a fortune.

If I can be of any help, do PM, but really, you need a solicitor.

AJE

thanks anto

you cleared up alot, that doc on illegal eviction is great. if u read the following;

[FONT=&quot]An illegal eviction may occur where a landlord through force, intimidation or otherwise (such as cutting off utilities, changing the locks etc) denies a tenant from accessing a rented dwelling or removes a tenant’s belongings from the dwelling whether or not a valid of Notice of Termination had been served in respect of the tenancy. Section 58 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 provides that since 1st September 2004 a tenancy may not be terminated by the landlord by means of a notice of forfeiture, a re-entry or any other process or procedure not provided for under Part 5 of the Act. [/FONT]


It states if you do anything to prevent him from entering the property or preventing him from accessing his belongings or haven't served him valid notice then i'm in breach. So i am going to go to the garda office tomorrow with my parents and ask an officer to escort us to the house and issue him with a proper formal letter of evicition for anti social behaviour towards his nieghbours (there is alot i didn't mention what he did) but mainly anti social behaviour towards his neighbour on the other side. You see our letting agent got the notice of anti social behavour from the gardai. We didn't get a copy but we were informed. They should have evicted him there and then but didn't. They were acting as landlords for us but now that they are gone bust we are now the landlords and can now act on that complaint (statute of limitations).

With that done, i will then have to wait and hope the presence of a garda officer will show that we do mean business. fingers crossed on that one. The prtb seem to favour landlords due to there being no protection laws for landlords (thats again citizen advice but there is a case in athlone at the moment of a similiar nature that could lead to a favourable outcome for people in our situation - advertiser.ie click on athlone and local news). The doc from the prtb does saying cutting of utilities can be a breach if it prevents him from acessing his property. Doesn't say we cannot cut off the electricity. I believe it to be if you have an electronic lock or some sort of electic gate or some sort of electronic system for entering the property that if the electricity were cut off it would prevent him from entering the property. I will clarify that with a solicitor.

But the last thing i need clarified is what are our rights after the 7 days. He will have then past his notice to move out (he already has passed his notice to move out due to the formal notice given to him in april) I will contact a solicitor and ask them about this also.

We cannot sit here and let him stay, he is going to cost us a lot, i guess close to 10,000 euro to get the house back to a livable state or rentable state. The wooden floors are destroyed, the cooker, washing machine and dryer are all broken. It will need a professional clean and paint. The oil tank is pushed off its bricks by trees overgrowing (hate to think what the actual boiler is like) he burns alot of rubbish, you can smell it on the street so chimney needs a good clean. This is worth at least 5k so far (if the boiler is fecked) and we got to estimate twice that just in case. Alot of the info is relied back from the health nurse that visits him.

Whats good now is the info you have posted, esp that prtb doc. PPL in my situation now know what they can do.

Cheers anto for all your help(apologies for not spell checking buts its half one)

the_syco

AJE wrote: »

I knocked on his door and told him he has 7 days to move out. I told him I am locking the back gate to the garden today and that on the 8th day I am cutting off his electricity and blocking the chimney. He told me to put it in writing so I did and I told him the police are getting a copy of it also. I went down to the local garda office and the officer said it was grand as long as I am the owner. I told them I am acting on behalf of the owners who are my parents. I know they want him out.

You know this? Because unless they told you (in writing), you could be getting them in a f**k load of touble, and yourself in a lot of trouble. Assumption is the mother of all f**kups!

Blocking his chimney equals fire & health hazard. He could "forget" about the letter, light a fire, wait a while, and ring the firebrigade. You could be sued for endangering his life, if the firebrigade get there in time. If not, you could be looking at a more serious charge.

Oh, and he'll win.

"...and did you try to escape the burning house?" "Yes, mu'lord, but he had boarded up the windows, so trapped, I was...".

You seriously need to talk to someone about the law, or you'll find yourself in prison, and him living in a rent-free house, with a nice tidy sum of money from you.

duff123

I have never before heard from a "qualified lawyer" who knows so little about the law. This is gong to have a very interesting ending. Don't forget to keep us updated as you have done practically everything completely wrong since you got involved.

AJE

ya i'm just going to unsubscribe from this right now, its getting a bit nasty

thanks again anto, great help, thanks for setting me straight, you should be a mod here, your a hell of an advisor

Amazotheamazing

This thread is proof that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Your parents should have taken proper procedures to evict him, cutting corners on it has only cost them time and money.

If you're a lawyer, surely you did landlord and tenant in Blackhall? Having a law degree doesn't make you a lawyer, and if you did pass through Blackhall it's furthering my belief that the standard of teaching there is rubbish (and I'm only just qualified so I accept I'm criticising my own credentials).

firesidechat

You state that the tenant is a very old man but you do not mention his age.Personally i am shocked at your attitude.The man is elderly and lives on his own.Does he have any help or carers that call to him daily?.
Have you contacted his family to ask them to help or at least let them know that you intend to evict their elderly family member.There must be a local elderly agencie that would help deal with these matters.I am disgusted to think you would even suggest to block his chimney and board up his windows.have you even checked if the man is ill?
You'r parents allowed you and you'r wife to use one of their houses because you lost your job, as an act of charity.Could you not return the favor and look into this poor mans situation .Have you even thought where he is supposed to go ,or do you care ?Nowhere in you'r post did you say the gentleman is not paying his rent.Maybe he just needs a bit of help to maintain the house.Please contact a local social worker or elderly advocate.Unlike you'rself they will take an interest in his welfare.
As you are not working at present,maybe you might think about doing some volunteer work for the elderly..It just may open you'r eyes to the plight that this man is in and many more like him......

antoinolachtnai

I think there is a point to the other things that have been said.

It is good that you are at least talking to the health worker and the Garda. Really, this is an issue for your whole community, not just you and your parents.

You have to work this out with them, to figure out where this guy is supposed to go when he leaves your property. This is a big problem.

Everyone has a stake, but you are probably the one who will have to take the lead on this.

It's not commonly known, but part of the role of a good and profit-making landlord is sometimes to act as a social worker.

D3PO

AJE wrote: »

The wooden floors are destroyed, the cooker, washing machine and dryer are all broken. It will need a professional clean and paint. The oil tank is pushed off its bricks by trees overgrowing

so aswell as threathening behavoiur to the tennant looks liek we can add illegal entry to the property to your list of f**k ups.

How else would you know said samage has been done. If they guy wanted to hed have you by the balls.

Ive just lost all faith in the legal profession after hearing your qualified

The_Conductor

While the OP may have made a few errors of judgement- there is no need to be abusive towards him- a few simple pointers at the relevant part of the 2004 Act would have sufficed. If you disagree with what someone else posts- refute the post- without attacking the poster- that is one of the basic tenents of posting in this forum. If people are incapable of behaving in a dignified manner towards each other- they will have their posting rights revoked.

On that note- this thread is closed.