What is the reason for not reducing expenditure?

Dannyboy83

By now everyone is aware that taxes are going up and up, but expenditure is not going to come down by any realistic figure.
Neither social welfare nor public sector payroll.

What is the reason for this?

I'm guessing lower social welfare and lower rent assistance is going to lead to lower rental yield for investors which will lead to more foreclosures, leading to lower property prices.
And reducing public sector pay/chopping public sector jobs is going to lead to more foreclosures again, leading to falling property prices.

So the reason for not reducing government expenditure and taxing everyone to the hilt, is some vague idea by Fianna Fail that they can reinflate the property bubble?
This is a bit like trying to put out a fire with petrol, isn't it?

Is there any alternative?
Will the next government (FG/Lab) have to accept that those who bought within the last 3 years probably cannot be saved?
Surely most of the damage could be contained by only strangling the top earners and leave joe soap well alone?

Sand

Basically the excuse is that if the government cuts spending it will be deflationary ( people spend less, so prices fall to attract buyers, so people spend less because they expect prices to fall...economic death spiral...).

This is the bull**** anyhow. Basically, the biggest milk cow for Fianna Fail is the middle class trapped out in Lucan. You're mooing and bleating, but they can milk you pretty much in safety through a mixture of disorganisation ( the middle class tend to be the least political) plus misguided civic duty ( the middle class tend to believe most in "taking one for the team") whereas the lower classes tend to be out for whatever they can get justifying themselves as victims, whereas the uber rich...well they can afford accountants who ensure they never pay taxes anywhere anyhow.

Lockstep

Sand wrote: »

This is the bull**** anyhow. Basically, the biggest milk cow for Fianna Fail is the middle class trapped out in Lucan. You're mooing and bleating, but they can milk you pretty much in safety through a mixture of disorganisation ( the middle class tend to be the least political) plus misguided civic duty ( the middle class tend to believe most in "taking one for the team") whereas the lower classes tend to be out for whatever they can get justifying themselves as victims, whereas the uber rich...well they can afford accountants who ensure they never pay taxes anywhere anyhow.

Really?
Last I was reading was that the lowest voter turnouts came from the manual workers and the semi skilled.


Farmers being the most likely to vote followed by skilled manual workers.

Sand

I said they were the least organised. Other sections of society tend to organise themselves under banners of victimisation. Farmers for example despite being practically insignificant to Ireland's economic future have dominated Irelands trade policies.

irish_bob

Sand wrote: »

I said they were the least organised. Other sections of society tend to organise themselves under banners of victimisation. Farmers for example despite being practically insignificant to Ireland's economic future have dominated Irelands trade policies.

when it comes to political clout , no bloc comes close to the public sector , fianna fail value them above all bar perhaps the elderly and as for labour , well thier all they got

agree about middle ireland , it has no one , the poverty industry never has any bother getting access to a camera , vincent browne,s door is always open but mr and mrs middle ireland private sector tax payer is the silent majority , why fine gael have not decided to pitch for it is beyond me

Lockstep

Sand wrote: »

I said they were the least organised. Other sections of society tend to organise themselves under banners of victimisation. Farmers for example despite being practically insignificant to Ireland's economic future have dominated Irelands trade policies.

I'd disagree; middle Ireland has no problem making itself heard. Mostly they seem to be whinging about their mortgage as they saddled themselves with a debt they couldn't hope to pay.
If you feel that they have trouble organisiing then it's their own business; they have money, education and complain a lot. DUnno if they're organised or not but they can hardly blame anyone else there,

Max Power1

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

By now everyone is aware that taxes are going up and up, but expenditure is not going to come down by any realistic figure.
Neither social welfare nor public sector payroll.

What is the reason for this?

I'm guessing lower social welfare and lower rent assistance is going to lead to lower rental yield for investors which will lead to more foreclosures, leading to lower property prices.
And reducing public sector pay/chopping public sector jobs is going to lead to more foreclosures again, leading to falling property prices.

So the reason for not reducing government expenditure and taxing everyone to the hilt, is some vague idea by Fianna Fail that they can reinflate the property bubble?
This is a bit like trying to put out a fire with petrol, isn't it?

Is there any alternative?
Will the next government (FG/Lab) have to accept that those who bought within the last 3 years probably cannot be saved?
Surely most of the damage could be contained by only strangling the top earners and leave joe soap well alone?

Basically this government is clueless. It is acknowledged fact you cannot tax your way out of a recession. You need to cut expenditure to make ends meet as the tax take reduces. Thing is, I dont see a FG/Lab government as any better tbh. We need a credible opposition with a credible leader, something we definetly dont have currently.

Lockstep

irish_bob wrote: »

when it comes to political clout , no bloc comes close to the public sector , fianna fail value them above all bar perhaps the elderly

No, FF value the farmers above all.
They;ve been grand with putting in freezes, levies etc to the detriment of the public sector, knowing this will cost them votes.

irish_bob wrote: »

and as for labour , well thier all they got

Labour's main area of support has traditionally been the unskilled workiers (slightly more unskilled workers voted for Labour than the lower middle class, followed by the upper middle class), they also have strong links with SIPTU which is a public and private sector union.

irish_bob wrote: »

agree about middle ireland , it has no one , the poverty industry never has any bother getting access to a camera , vincent browne,s door is always open but mr and mrs middle ireland private sector tax payer is the silent majority , why fine gael have not decided to pitch for it is beyond me

Ha, how many times have you turned on the news to hear about private workers being laid off?

Would completely disagree that they are a silent majority, I'm usually hearing them complain about the public sector or how they're saddled with debt as they borrowed too much

Tipp Man

Sand wrote: »

I said they were the least organised. Other sections of society tend to organise themselves under banners of victimisation. Farmers for example despite being practically insignificant to Ireland's economic future have dominated Irelands trade policies.

Practically insignificant to the economy is rubbish to be honest, a quick look at the dept of agriculture website shows that 8.5% of the country's workforce is employed in Agriculture contributing 10% of exports, and is one of Ireland's few indigenious industries left, and certainly one of the few that hasn't been sheeding jobs by the thousand in the last year. hardly insignificant I'd say??

kickoutthejams wrote: »

No, FF value the farmers above all.
They;ve been grand with putting in freezes, levies etc to the detriment of the public sector, knowing this will cost them votes.

It might have escaped you in the last buget but agriculture was hit probably harder than any other single sector in the economy, abolition of the farm retirment scheme, REPS 4 closed, abolition of the young entrants scheme, suspension of grant payments leading to severe cashflow problems for many farmers, abolition of the suckler cow scheme

Tell me now how FF values farmers above everyone else

Tipp Man

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Would completely disagree that they are a silent majority, I'm usually hearing them complain about the public sector or how they're saddled with debt as they borrowed too much

Would agree with Bob on this, the unions and "POOR" get a completly disproportionate amount of media time to air their agenda, there is no organised body for middle ireland which is why you don't hear anything from them in mainstream media, a few public service bashing threads on here doesn't constitute a lot of media time:)

Lockstep

Tipp Man wrote: »

Would agree with Bob on this, the unions and "POOR" get a completly disproportionate amount of media time to air their agenda

Would disagree; you usually hear a few bits about unions threatening to strike and a load of stories about people milking the welfare system.
Articles outlining the disparity between public/private sectors are 10 a penny; just look on the Politics section for example.

Tipp Man wrote: »

there is no organised body for middle ireland

If that's true, they should probably organise something. What's stopping them?

Tipp Man wrote: »

which is why you don't hear anything from them in mainstream media, a few public service bashing threads on here doesn't constitute a lot of media time:)

Ha, this is the Politics section, you can't just say "HURR DURR THE PUBLIC SECTOR ARE OVERPAID!!!!1!!" and expect to be taken seriously.You are expected to back this up with articles etc, and it has been done with everything from the Independant to Finfacts.

Lockstep

Tipp Man wrote: »

It might have escaped you in the last buget but agriculture was hit probably harder than any other single sector in the economy, abolition of the farm retirment scheme, REPS 4 closed, abolition of the young entrants scheme, suspension of grant payments leading to severe cashflow problems for many farmers, abolition of the suckler cow scheme

IIRC, the cuts in the 2009 budget for agriculture, food and forestry amounted to €11million.

Tipp Man wrote: »

Tell me now how FF values farmers above everyone else

You make it sound like nobody else was affected by the budget.

Relative to their contribution to the Irish economy, their being hit by the budget was small.

Tipp Man

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Would disagree; you usually hear a few bits about unions threatening to strike and a load of stories about people milking the welfare system.
Articles outlining the disparity between public/private sectors are 10 a penny; just look on the Politics section for example.

If that's true, they should probably organise something. What's stopping them?


Ha, this is the Politics section, you can't just say "HURR DURR THE PUBLIC SECTOR ARE OVERPAID!!!!1!!" and expect to be taken seriously.You are expected to back this up with articles etc, and it has been done with everything from the Independant to Finfacts.

I have no idea to be honest where you are going with that reply, its just a load of words thrown together

anyway i'll respond to what i think your saying, Just because an article is highlighting that Tom on the dole is claiming 1000 a week or that the Public sector is actually the best paid in Europe (the world??) doesn't mean that its a pro middle ireland agenda, its just stating facts

and if you think the unions in this country don't get a huge amount of media time to bleat on about their own narrow minded agenda then your in cuckoo land

irish_bob

kickoutthejams wrote: »

No, FF value the farmers above all.
They;ve been grand with putting in freezes, levies etc to the detriment of the public sector, knowing this will cost them votes.

Labour's main area of support has traditionally been the unskilled workiers (slightly more unskilled workers voted for Labour than the lower middle class, followed by the upper middle class), they also have strong links with SIPTU which is a public and private sector union.


Ha, how many times have you turned on the news to hear about private workers being laid off?

Would completely disagree that they are a silent majority, I'm usually hearing them complain about the public sector or how they're saddled with debt as they borrowed too much

the average farmer earns about a third of what the average public servant earns , the goverment have recently made huge cuts to the reps scheme which will decimate the west of ireland , they have also saddled farmers everywhere with debt due to the fact that they renagued on the terms of a grant scheme involving manure storage relating to a european nitrates directive , its absolute nonesense to suggest that farmers have more political muscle than public servants , for a start , they are numerically a much smaller group , secondly , jack o connor or david begg appear in the media far more often than padraig walsh of the ifa does , padraig walsh,s views are taken on board by goverment , begg and o connor have a say in what goverment does , they should jump , biffo asks , how high

Tipp Man

kickoutthejams wrote: »

You make it sound like nobody else was affected by the budget.

Relative to their contribution to the Irish economy, their being hit by the budget was small.

Again another ramble with absolutely nothing to back it up, where the hell have i said that nobody else was effected, fact of the matter is if your paying tax in this country then you're worse off than a year ago

you clearly said that farmers were extra special to FF and insinuated they receive special treatment

kickoutthejams wrote: »

No, FF value the farmers above all.

and i highlighted the amount of cuts that had been applied to them. don't forget that all the tax increase apply to them as well, and even more than you if you are a PAYE as the income levy is gross and capital allowances cannot be used against it

AARRRGH

FF know they are going to lose the next general election, so if they can delay making any painful expenditure cuts, hence forcing FG to make them when in power, FF can ensure a swift return to government due to the obvious backlash FG will face.

irish_bob

AARRRGH wrote: »

FF know they are going to lose the next general election, so if they can delay making any painful expenditure cuts, hence forcing FG to make them when in power, FF can ensure a swift return to government due to the obvious backlash FG will face.

one would think that faced with the certainty of defeat at the next election , most goverments would do the unthinkable and do the right thing , not fianna fail , they would rather allow the big bad wolf that is the IMF come in and make the savage cuts , that way a sizeable amount of suckers would absolve them of blame and allow them back in ten years or so , im not sure this reflects the cynicism of fianna fail or the irish people , perhaps both

jimmmy

Tipp Man wrote: »

and if you think the unions in this country don't get a huge amount of media time to bleat on about their own narrow minded agenda then your in cuckoo land

I agree with that, every time you turn on RTE they have some union person spouting on, and RTE news is always a bit biased in favour of the public sector eg a few days ago their report about the nurses + guards fighting "further cuts" etc.

Lockstep

Tipp Man wrote: »

I have no idea to be honest where you are going with that reply, its just a load of words thrown together

It's really not that hard to follow. I've read over my response and if you can't follow it, I really can't help you.

Tipp Man wrote: »

anyway i'll respond to what i think your saying, Just because an article is highlighting that Tom on the dole is claiming 1000 a week or that the Public sector is actually the best paid in Europe (the world??) doesn't mean that its a pro middle ireland agenda, its just stating facts

I don;t think most Irish newspapers have an agenda; they write on stories.
Be they on dole scroungers, the disparity of the public/private sector etc.
THey are highlighting problems relevant to middle Ireland, a far cry to the claims that they are a silent majority.

Tipp Man wrote: »

and if you think the unions in this country don't get a huge amount of media time to bleat on about their own narrow minded agenda then your in cuckoo land

Oh sweet irony...
At any rate, if the unions are threatening to strike, of course the media is going to report on it.

Lockstep

irish_bob wrote: »

the average farmer earns about a third of what the average public servant earns , the goverment have recently made huge cuts to the reps scheme which will decimate the west of ireland , they have also saddled farmers everywhere with debt due to the fact that they renagued on the terms of a grant scheme involving manure storage relating to a european nitrates directive ,

Again, the 2009 budget shows cuts in that area amount to €11million

irish_bob wrote: »

its absolute nonesense to suggest that farmers have more political muscle than public servants , for a start , they are numerically a much smaller group

They are also the voting block with the highest turnout, and pretty much vote for only FF or FG.
The public sector vote is split far more.

irish_bob wrote: »

, secondly , jack o connor or david begg appear in the media far more often than padraig walsh of the ifa does , padraig walsh,s views are taken on board by goverment , begg and o connor have a say in what goverment does , they should jump , biffo asks , how high

Ha, the government is fairly grand with annoying the unions; the unions have been on a fair few strikes (yes I know you'll claim that the unions are unreasonable but if FF really said "how high" theyre'd be no reason to strike)

Maybe I just saw more IFA exposure because I was living in Connemara.

Lockstep

Tipp Man wrote: »

Again another ramble with absolutely nothing to back it up,

Well, they were hit to the tune of 11million euro in the 2009 budget, as I previously said.


If you're so concerned about backign things up, can you source your own arguments please?

Tipp Man wrote: »

where the hell have i said that nobody else was effected, fact of the matter is if your paying tax in this country then you're worse off than a year ago

Yup, but farming subsidies were not cut to a large degree,

Tipp Man wrote: »

you clearly said that farmers were extra special to FF and insinuated they receive special treatment

I insinuated no such thing, I said they were FF most important voting block but feel free claim implications and insinuations if you want, as there's nothing I can do about your own interpretations.

Tipp Man wrote: »

and i highlighted the amount of cuts that had been applied to them. don't forget that all the tax increase apply to them as well, and even more than you if you are a PAYE as the income levy is gross and capital allowances cannot be used against it

Yes, cuts to the tune of 11million euro. Harsh that.

Sand

Thing is, I dont see a FG/Lab government as any better tbh. We need a credible opposition with a credible leader, something we definetly dont have currently.

If you see any better options, call me. Otherwise, im tired of the "Fine Gael arent ****ing perfect,hence theyre just as bad as FF" argument. FF have had their chance to be terrible. FG deserve the same chance.

Im still trying to understand the hatred for Kenny to be honest. If you wanted some jack the lad you reckon you could have a piint with, I hear Bertie is still in politics.

We get the government we deserve.

Practically insignificant to the economy is rubbish to be honest, a quick look at the dept of agriculture website shows that 8.5% of the country's workforce is employed in Agriculture contributing 10% of exports, and is one of Ireland's few indigenious industries left, and certainly one of the few that hasn't been sheeding jobs by the thousand in the last year. hardly insignificant I'd say??

8.5% and 10%....assuming you have overegged it to make a case...yeah, practically insignificant covers it.

and if you think the unions in this country don't get a huge amount of media time to bleat on about their own narrow minded agenda then your in cuckoo land

Hes working in the public sector...

Lockstep

Sand wrote: »

Hes working in the public sector...

In case that was meant to be serious;
I'm not working in the public sector, never have done. No idea where you got this idea from.

I'm living and working in Belgium now at any rate.

JohnThomas09

why cant all ministers cut the wages in half,that way we could save millions per annum..if they all earned 30,000euro a year that would still be more then enough to get by,rather than the ridiculous wages their on at present..

bauderline

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I'm living and working in Belgium now at any rate.

.... You're in good company !

jimmmy

JohnThomas09 wrote: »

why cant all ministers cut the wages in half,that way we could save millions per annum..if they all earned 30,000euro a year that would still be more then enough to get by,rather than the ridiculous wages their on at present..

Cowen is entitled to be paid more than Obama or the President of the UK, Germany or France etc.:rolleyes:
The head of our central bank is entitled to be the best paid central banker in the world ( considering what a great job he done regulating our banks etc ):rolleyes:
The Minister for agriculture is entitled to be paid more than his equivalents abroad....shure is he not overworked with a staff of 15,000 and only 100,000 farmers in the country ?
Our hospital consultants are entitled to be paid double what they would get in Germany. And all the way down...our public servants deserve to get the best pay (average of 966 per week, as confirmed by the c.s.o. themselves ) and pension in the known world.:rolleyes:
Leadership starts from the top down. I blame Bertie and Cowen most, and the head of the central bank etc. Its not as if they were not paid enough.

Max Power1

Sand wrote: »

If you see any better options, call me. Otherwise, im tired of the "Fine Gael arent ****ing perfect,hence theyre just as bad as FF" argument. FF have had their chance to be terrible. FG deserve the same chance.

Im still trying to understand the hatred for Kenny to be honest. If you wanted some jack the lad you reckon you could have a piint with, I hear Bertie is still in politics.

We get the government we deserve.

I think this is going to be similar to what happened in the early to mid 80s. 3 General Elections in 18 months (maybe a little longer this time) because in the next GEN, FG/LAB will get elected. They will then make cuts that needed to be made by FF but they didnt. FG will then get blamed for running the country into the ground, and FF get back in. I hope against allhope that this isnt what happens.

Kenny just isnt a strong leader. Very queit and diminutive. Doesnt have any sort of persona or personality going for him. Unlike someone like Joe Higgins for example.