.223 ristricted ??

Keelan

Are .223's ristricted from now on?
My cousin applied for one and his a member with a gun club.
He got to eventually see the guard that deals with firearms applications and was told, that it would have to go to the commissinor and that he had no chance, and was told by the guard that they are now under ristriction..:rolleyes:
His based in Tralee, co kerry.
Thanks,
Keelan.

rrpc

Keelan wrote: »

Are .223's ristricted from now on?
My cousin applied for one and his a member with a gun club.
He got to eventually see the guard that deals with firearms applications and was told, that it would have to go to the commissinor and that he had no chance, and was told by the guard that they are now under ristriction..:rolleyes:
His based in Tralee, co kerry.
Thanks,
Keelan.

If it's a semi-auto, it's restricted.

That's it. Centre fire calibres up to .308" (7.62mm) are not restricted so long as they are repeaters (e.g. bolt action).

And although the act says the Commissioner decides on restricted licences, the Commissioner has delegated that function to Chief Superintendents at divisional level.

And restricted does not mean it's not licensable. You and your friend need to read the Announcement post at the top of this forum and especially the Garda commissioner's guidelines that are linked there.

Grizzly 45

Not mind his location...apprently not the most pro gun Supers down there,according to the natives in the know.:(

Keelan

thanks.
its not a semi-auto, just a cz bolt action.
he was in again this morning and explained this, but the guard said it will be revoked, unless he changes the caliber and get something acceptable.
he is not too botherd and does not want hassel and to put their backs up, so his going to get back to what he had before, a .22 Hornet.

Rovi

The .223 cartridge is absolutely not restricted in and of itself, and this is a bolt action rifle, so it's not restricted either.

Is your cousin dealing with an 'ordinary' Garda at the counter, or someone further up the chain of command?

I hesitate to advise people to bring copies of the Guidelines and Statutory Instruments with them on these jobs as it tends to put the person on the other side of the counter on the defensive straight away, but it may have to happen in this case.

You say your cousin is a member of a gun club; it might be best to start off by contacting them (and NARGC, by extension) and ask for their advice and help on the matter.

Cass

Keelan wrote: »

......its not a semi-auto, just a cz bolt action.......

Any centre-fire rifle over the calibre of .308inch (7.62mm) or any centre-fire rifle whose overall lenght is less than 90 centimetres will come into the restricted firearms category. Also any centre-fire rifle of semi automatic nature will come into the restricted firearms category. As your cousin's rifle falls under NONE of these categories it is not restricted.

........but the guard said it will be revoked, unless he changes the caliber and get something acceptable......

The Garda has no authority to tell you that and he should keep his misinformed opinions to himself. No Garda can tell you what gun you should or should not have or buy. The licensing authority base the granting of a licence on the say so of the Superintendent not the desk jockey at the hatch. Restricted firearms are issued by the Chief Super of the district but that is of no worry to you.

.......does not want hassel and to put their backs up, so his going to get back to what he had before, a .22 Hornet.........

Don't. Take Rovi's advice and contact the NARGC who will be happy to take your case up. Its Gardai around the country (and from my experience they are in the minority) with attitudes similar to the one you're dealing with that are destroying gun ownership/clubs and sports. Sure they have a right to an opinion but it just that their opinion. They are public servants and while we all know how the system really works (back scratching, appeasing people etc) you should never back down when you are in the right just because the person on the other side has a uniform.

Please don't let this go or the next time you'll be asked "why do you need a Hornett sure won't a .22 or pellet gun do you". Its a slippery slope.

Keelan

Thanks very much. i will pass all this on to my cousin.
will keep you all informed on what happens.

rrpc

+1 to all the above.

Your cousin is entitled to at the very least a fair hearing and to be given the facts. I'm always inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to Gardai in these situations as many times it's been discovered that people have been ecumenical with the truth

Not in this case however as there is no justification for telling people total lies. just to reiterate what I and others have said here:

A .223 CZ bolt action rifle is not restricted.

You are entitled to make application for whetever it is you wish to get, there's no guarantee that you'll get it, but you are at least entitled to apply and to be told the truth.

Do not back down unless you really want to. Other people are depending on you not to cave in to bullying.

rowa

I thought the whole point of having the guidelines was that all this rubbish about pro and anti supers was put to bed once and for all or are there now supers thumbing there nose's at the things they dislike ?

The problem is some gardai think they are the law and don't mind telling barefaced lies to get rid of someone trying to licence something they dislike out of the station .

Cass

rowa wrote: »

I thought the whole point of having the guidelines was that all this rubbish about pro and anti supers was put to bed once and for all or are there now supers thumbing there nose's at the things they dislike ? ....... .

The whole point of the guidelines and the CJ(MP)A was to tighten up a loose and slowly sinking ship. It has its benefits, in quick decisions no more of people waiting 5,6 7months for decisions. Defining exactly what is and is not required for ownership and licensing of certain firearms but to mention a few. It has its drawbacks, in that there are more hoops to jump through but serious shooters both sporting and game will not mind the extra bit of paperwork (only every 3 years) required to keep their firearms and continue in a sport they like. All in all i'm content that (for me personally) i've gained as much as i may have lost.

The problem is some gardai think they are the law and don't mind telling barefaced lies to get rid of someone trying to licence something they dislike out of the station

That may be true for some of the old type stick in the muds but they have been around since the begining of firearms licensing and will continue to be so. The CJ(MP)A and commissioners guidelines set out what you can and cannot do, get, have so now everyone knows or can get hold of information instead of relying on the man at the hatch who may be pro or anti shooting.

Keelan

ezridax wrote: »

That may be true for some of the old type stick in the muds but they have been around since the begining of firearms licensing and will continue to be so.

This firearms officer my cousin is dealing with is a new lad, as the older chap retired, he was great...
My cousin was in again last night, took a picture of the rifle in ect..
He was told to give in the rifle to the nearest firearms dealer without delay, or have his whole apllication for shotguns and all revoked........:eek:...:(
he is a shy type, so has said he wont bother them anymore, his swaping the .223 for a hornet and asked if the officer would revoke that in the future, the FO said, unless their is a further change in the law, then no..
Very frustrating for my cousin, i would of like to go in and have a go, but it would not look good.
I think thats the end to the matter.
So much for this new firearms law, looks like its for the rich from now on, or the comfertably well off ect, as the avarage joe soap, who can not afford a weeks shopping anymore, let alone a solicitor, has no hope..

Keelan.

rrpc

Keelan wrote: »

This firearms officer my cousin is dealing with is a new lad, as the older chap retired, he was great...
My cousin was in again last night, took a picture of the rifle in ect..
He was told to give in the rifle to the nearest firearms dealer without delay, or have his whole apllication for shotguns and all revoked........:eek:...:(

That is outrageous. :mad:, does he actually have a licence for the .223 right now?

I think thats the end to the matter.
So much for this new firearms law, looks like its for the rich from now on, or the comfertably well off ect, as the avarage joe soap, who can not afford a weeks shopping anymore, let alone a solicitor, has no hope..

Keelan.

It shouldn't be, it costs nothing to apply and the Super has to consider it and respond within three months. If he refuses he has to give reasons.

What is the Garda Station?

Rovi

Keelan wrote: »

This firearms officer my cousin is dealing with is a new lad, as the older chap retired, he was great...
My cousin was in again last night, took a picture of the rifle in ect..
He was told to give in the rifle to the nearest firearms dealer without delay, or have his whole apllication for shotguns and all revoked........:eek:...:(

On the face of it, that's appalling. :eek:

I'm not expecting you to reply here and I have no idea who you or your cousin are in the real world (and don't want to know), but is there any possibility your cousin has 'previous' of some sort or is otherwise 'disentitled' in some way?
Given that he's been told that his shotgun applications will be okay if he withdraws the .223 one, it seems most unlikely, which makes the actions and attitude of this particular member of the Garda Síochána all the more unacceptable.

Keelan wrote: »

he is a shy type, so has said he wont bother them anymore, his swaping the .223 for a hornet and asked if the officer would revoke that in the future, the FO said, unless their is a further change in the law, then no..
Very frustrating for my cousin, i would of like to go in and have a go, but it would not look good.
I think thats the end to the matter.
So much for this new firearms law, looks like its for the rich from now on, or the comfertably well off ect, as the avarage joe soap, who can not afford a weeks shopping anymore, let alone a solicitor, has no hope..

Keelan.

The decision to continue or not is entirely up to the individual involved, but this sort of thing is going to have to be challenged by someone at some point.

rrpc

+1 to what Rovi said, with the emphasis again on the quys right to apply. Really the issue here is that the man is being refused the right to apply for something on (what seem on the face of it to be) spurious grounds.

There may well be some 'issue' that is causing the Garda to recommend that he does not apply, but there is absolutely no law against making an application.

And there are certainly no penalties for applying that would see the applicant lose his other licences :eek:

It seems from this:

Keelan wrote:

He was told to give in the rifle to the nearest firearms dealer without delay

that he already has a licence for the .223, so I would be interested to know if that's the case.

Just want to add, and this is important; that if he's a member of the NARGC, there's no cost involved to them taking this to the FPU.

Cass

Jaysus Keelan, get your cousin and give him a kick up the a**e. The Garda is completely and utterly in the wrong. The NARGC will take his case but you need not go that far. Type out a letter stating that;

" I (garda name) have instructed (cousin's name) to surrender his licenced firearm, being a rifle of .223 calibre, serial number, make, model to (dealers shop name) immediately. Failure to do so will result in termination of the licence holders applications for re-licencing of said firearm and all other firearms currently owned and licenced by said person".

(Print name) Garda Signature:______________

(Print name) Cousins Signature: ___________________

He will not sign it. You now have him by the b**ls. Go home and ring the station asking for an appointment to see the Super. Explain your Cousin's situation and show him the letter that the Garda refused to sign. If you still get no joy then contact the NARGC and ask them to proceed on your cousins behalf.

Before you do any of the above call the NARGC and inform them of what is happening and that you are trying to resolve the situation yourself but failing that you will/may need their help. Do not forget to call them first as it will inform them of your plans so as not to catch them out later and also they may have a better solution.

Above all else do not surrender the rifle. Your cousin obviously has an extension for it so its still his. Do not let your cousin go alone to the station to see the Garda in question or the Super and do not let them bully you out of any meeting. Your cousin has a right to have anybody he deems as a witness.

foxshooter243

ezridax wrote: »

Jaysus Keelan, get your cousin and give him a kick up the a**e. The Garda is completely and utterly in the wrong. The NARGC will take his case but you need not go that far. Type out a letter stating that;

" I (garda name) have instructed (cousin's name) to surrender his licenced firearm, being a rifle of .223 calibre, serial number, make, model to (dealers shop name) immediately. Failure to do so will result in termination of the licence holders applications for re-licencing of said firearm and all other firearms currently owned and licenced by said person".

(Print name) Garda Signature:______________

(Print name) Cousins Signature: ___________________

He will not sign it. You now have him by the b**ls. Go home and ring the station asking for an appointment to see the Super. Explain your Cousin's situation and show him the letter that the Garda refused to sign. If you still get no joy then contact the NARGC and ask them to proceed on your cousins behalf.

Before you do any of the above call the NARGC and inform them of what is happening and that you are trying to resolve the situation yourself but failing that you will/may need their help. Do not forget to call them first as it will inform them of your plans so as not to catch them out later and also they may have a better solution.

Above all else do not surrender the rifle. Your cousin obviously has an extension for it so its still his. Do not let your cousin go alone to the station to see the Garda in question or the Super and do not let them bully you out of any meeting. Your cousin has a right to have anybody he deems as a witness.

Been following this with some interest, it seems that this lad has the 223 in his possession, and is applying for his re application. The Garda in question wants him to surrender the firearm and get a more accepetable
calibre than 223 for his purpose!-what reason did the lad give for requiring the 223 on his reapplication?-maybe this garda has decided that his reason for having the calibre goes against the "advice" offered in the "guidelines"-being that 223 and 220 swift type of calibres need Mount Everest for a backstop:rolleyes:-maybe this is the root of the problem?
Maybe this garda reckons they are restricted due to the guidelines suggesting they are only for use in mountainous terrain.

I would advise lads to rethink what they are putting on their reapplications
in the light of some of the things that are in these guideline, and tighten up on their "bona fides"-it might make life easier.
When reapplying for my 223 I added to the reapplication " This calibre is required for fox control for sheep farmers, on whose land I shoot over , which are comprised of mostly upland sheep farms";)

Cass

Originally Posted by foxshooter243

The Garda in question wants him to surrender the firearm and get a more accepetable calibre than 223 for his purpose!-what reason did the lad give for requiring the 223 on his reapplication?-maybe this garda has decided that his reason for having the calibre goes against the "advice" offered in the "guidelines...........

I keep saying it lads. A "good reason" is important but NO-ONE can stop you from applying for whatever calibre you want. Whether it is passed is up to the Super. The commissioners guidelines are exactly that GUIDELINES. Yes all the Super and Chief Supers will most likely follow them without deviation but legally its the CJ(MP)A that sets the laws regarding firearm ownership/licensing etc.The guidelines are there to aid the Gardai in their decision making process but have no legal stance in law.

It angers me to think of the crap this young lad is going through. If anyone on here is a senior member of the NARGC or other game/sports body would they please make contact with this chap to help and guide him. Too many people are going to find themselves in a similar position and if they are not up to speed on their rights and entittlements they will find themselves loosing their firearms. I'm not anti Gardai, i do have an excellent working relationship with both my local and district station and the Gardai that serve in them. I've never recieved anything but the best of service and co-operation from them so when i see others trying to circumvent peoples rights with bully boy tactics it p***es me right off.

Sparks

ezridax wrote: »

I've never recieved anything but the best of service and co-operation from them so when i see others trying to circumvent peoples rights with bully boy tactics it p***es me right off.

Have to say, from the same boat, that the thing that really gets under my fingernails about this is that one Garda on the desk, who has no say in the decision, can cause an enormous amount of ill-will towards all the other Gardai who're doing their best to provide a good, professional service.

Why some of these lads don't get a bit of a chat from their peers over the cup of coffee in the morning is beyond me...

foxshooter243

ezridax wrote: »

I keep saying it lads. A "good reason" is important but NO-ONE can stop you from applying for whatever calibre you want. Whether it is passed is up to the Super. The commissioners guidelines are exactly that GUIDELINES. Yes all the Super and Chief Supers will most likely follow them without deviation but legally its the CJ(MP)A that sets the laws regarding firearm ownership/licensing etc.The guidelines are there to aid the Gardai in their decision making process but have no legal stance in law.

It angers me to think of the crap this young lad is going through. If anyone on here is a senior member of the NARGC or other game/sports body would they please make contact with this chap to help and guide him. Too many people are going to find themselves in a similar position and if they are not up to speed on their rights and entittlements they will find themselves loosing their firearms. I'm not anti Gardai, i do have an excellent working relationship with both my local and district station and the Gardai that serve in them. I've never recieved anything but the best of service and co-operation from them so when i see others trying to circumvent peoples rights with bully boy tactics it p***es me right off.

I agree with what your saying!- I have been on the sharp end of these tactics in the past but fought my corner and prevailed, in one instance going over the firearms officers head to the superintendant, who resolved the matter with the stroke of a pen;).This was a matter concerning licencing a fourth firearm, which the firearms officer thought was one too many:rolleyes:. Anyway, this lad needs some help and he should contact his gun club secretary and ask him to obtain help from NARGC, but something has to be done or this type of thing will continue..if it were me I would print out the relevant info and throw it downin front of him to read:mad:

Cass

Exactly foxshooter. How many young lads do you think are going to get "bullied" or "scared" out of renewing their licences. I'm lucky that my local Gardai are on the level and would sooner help than hinder, but not all are like that and as i've said i'm sure they are in the minority. Still it doesn't give them the right to prevent an application. Even a super cannot stop you from applying only give or refuse his recommendation for the licence.

You have the right idea and its along the lines of my other post. Keelan's cousin should go to the Garda again this time armed with his re-application and the relevant knowledge not to mention a witness (Keelan himself). If he still won't play ball go over his head to the Super who has the last say anyway. I guarantee he''ll take the application.

No6

I dont know a hugh amount about this but why dosn't that young lad just leave his application at the desk or post it to the Garda station, address it to the super, Then as the application has been made they have to deal with it. To my mind he was being polite talking to the FO who had no right to treat him as he did unless as someone mentioned above there is something the op has left out!!

foxshooter243

No6 wrote: »

I dont know a hugh amount about this but why dosn't that young lad just leave his application at the desk or post it to the Garda station, address it to the super, Then as the application has been made they have to deal with it. To my mind he was being polite talking to the FO who had no right to treat him as he did unless as someone mentioned above there is something the op has left out!!

The method of posting your application to the super is one I have used before, it was a really good tactic when having your licence amended as it was always a horror story when dealing with your average desk garda who seen you as a bother and would have you comming back several times or would try to fob you off with a story like "oh youve changed your shotgun, thats a new application" type of thing.

It may be a worthwhile tactic in this case too, the OP should tell his mate to assemble all the info complete with a covering letter and post it to the station adressed to the superintendant, now it may just reach the supers secretary, but if he states his concerns that he feels that his application is being met with unfairly it will be given closer scrutiny and might circumvent his "hoop" downstairs:D

foxshooter243

No6 wrote: »

I dont know a hugh amount about this but why dosn't that young lad just leave his application at the desk or post it to the Garda station, address it to the super, Then as the application has been made they have to deal with it. To my mind he was being polite talking to the FO who had no right to treat him as he did unless as someone mentioned above there is something the op has left out!!

If the young fella has left out any info that we dont know about, then its strange that the garda allow him to have firearms in the first instance, thats my reading off it, I mean they dont have to make up a reason to take the firearm from him if he has disqualified himself-wouldnt you think:)

No6

Maybe even registered post too!!!

Cass

foxshooter243 wrote: »

If the young fella has left out any info that we dont know about, then its strange that the garda allow him to have firearms in the first instance,..........

Thats my thinking on the situation. He already has the firerarms and obviously the licences. He would have gotten the extensions automatically by post from Dublin. Therefore everything is in place for jim to re-apply. The only problem with this whole ordeal is the Garda on the desk. The OP never mentioned if he even was the FO or just on the front desk. Honestly it doesn't make much difference either way however it would be a poor sign if it was the FO doing all this.

chem

Had something similar happen to me. Had a .22 Hornet and wanted to swap it for a .223 (before guideline). I had a chat with the local FO and he said it was up to the super. So I put together my reasons for the change and included bullet drop tables etc as I wanted it for target shooting.

Left it afew weeks and rang the FO. He told me over the phone he reckoned I was trying to pull a fast one:rolleyes: and that id have to re-apply for the gun! Same FO never forwarded on info I had provided him for some de-act WW2 guns I wanted as part of my collection. Since found out the super knew notting of either applications.

Just always get the bothered ear or a fob off from him!

deerhunter1

Keelan wrote: »

thanks.
its not a semi-auto, just a cz bolt action.
he was in again this morning and explained this, but the guard said it will be revoked, unless he changes the caliber and get something acceptable.
he is not too botherd and does not want hassel and to put their backs up, so his going to get back to what he had before, a .22 Hornet.

Do not go down that road and give in to them,or you are f---ed for good. He (GS) either has not got a clue or is anti-gun, i have heard that there is a lot of problems around that neck of the woods regarding licenceing any kind of firearm. Stand up and do not change stick to your guns (pardon the pun)

meathstevie

A couple of things the guy can do :

- Note the member's name and number

- Ask for a written record of the instructions, dated and signed

- Ask to talk to a supervisor there and then; minimum sergeant's rank

- Keep a record of dates and times spoken with the particular member and
what was said.

- Make an appointment with the Super and present him/her the whole bundle
together with a completed application/renewal.

- Next time attend the station with an NARGC rep who can act as a witness

Folks, I'd be the last one to slate the Gardai but a Garda doing a bad job deserves to be pulled up on it just like anyone else.

Keelan

All i can say is, thanks very much for all your support and advice.
My cousin has read this. His had the .223 for the past 2 years.
He has contacted a good member of the gun club, who will hopefully get it sorted, as a whitness, in the meantime, he had to hand in the .223 into the local firearms dealer...
He realy does not want to put the garda's back up, but it seems in this case, he is doing nothing rong.
The Superintendent, is on holidays, so the FO is under control till then apparently and it does seem that he is anti gun, as he came out with a line, saying how if it was up to him, their would be no gun owner ship...!
Will keep all up to date on what is going on and thanks again.

Keelan.

rrpc

Keelan, if he has the .223 for two years then surely he has an extension letter for it? The earliest these extensions run out is 31st October 2009, so he should still be licensed on it and there's no need to give it to a dealer until that extension runs out.

johngalway

What a load of ****e.

Do as the lads suggest, have him put pen to paper and back up his small minded little opinions. I bet you he won't have the balls for it.

Also you will need the NARGC or some other body to help fight that case.

It's ridiculous!