March for Child Benefit

ntlbell · 10-09-2009 5:16pm

imokyrok wrote: »

I don't think it should be touched. It's is the equivalent of a tax allowance for children. That's all it is. There used to be a tax allowance per child - there isn't anymore.

so you don't see anything wrong in given say bono who avoids paying tax in ireland the states money for his kids even tho he earns millions a year?

just leave it there as a tax allowance?

if you do mind where do we draw the line?

imokyrok · 10-09-2009 5:37pm

ntlbell wrote: »

so you don't see anything wrong in given say bono who avoids paying tax in ireland the states money for his kids even tho he earns millions a year?

just leave it there as a tax allowance?

if you do mind where do we draw the line?

The problem with Bono is that he avails of tax loopholes for the very rich. Take those away and leave the child allowance.

Max Power1 · 10-09-2009 5:45pm

ntlbell wrote: »

It has nothing to do with what i wish i'm merley pointing out the difference between the have's and the have not's.

i mean your putting your child benifit into a christmas fund to buy kids toys?

when families are using it to put food on the table for their kids and clothes on their back and books in their bag

do you see the difference?

if not you don't deserve to get the benifit

and yes i'm a parent!

I would consider this the crux of the issue. Saving money is a luxury and these families should not recive the beniefit as, if they can afford to save it then they obviously arent in dire need of the benefit.

imokyrok · 10-09-2009 5:58pm

Max Power1 wrote: »

I would consider this the crux of the issue. Saving money is a luxury and these families should not recive the beniefit as, if they can afford to save it then they obviously arent in dire need of the benefit.

If Santa Claus is a luxury we should do without I'd hate to see your kids faces on christmas day. But I tell you what -take the childrens allowance and give me a council house and a medical card. I'd have no problem with that swap.

Max Power1 · 10-09-2009 6:08pm

imokyrok wrote: »

If Santa Claus is a luxury we should do without I'd hate to see your kids faces on christmas day. But I tell you what -take the childrens allowance and give me a council house and a medical card. I'd have no problem with that swap.

Its not a luxury but it shouldnt be susbsidised by the state either.
What has giving a medical card/house got to do with it? If you are qualified to get either of these things then obviously you will get the child benefit no matter what they do with means testing or taxing it!

ntlbell · 10-09-2009 6:42pm

imokyrok wrote: »

If Santa Claus is a luxury we should do without I'd hate to see your kids faces on christmas day. But I tell you what -take the childrens allowance and give me a council house and a medical card. I'd have no problem with that swap.

2.4k a year for santa sounds like a luxry

ntlbell · 10-09-2009 6:44pm

imokyrok wrote: »

The problem with Bono is that he avails of tax loopholes for the very rich. Take those away and leave the child allowance.

so if he didn't make use of the loopholes you're ok with him and anyone else who earn huge amounts of money a year taken money from the state when they don't need it?

interesting.

ntlbell · 10-09-2009 6:45pm

imokyrok wrote: »

If Santa Claus is a luxury we should do without I'd hate to see your kids faces on christmas day. But I tell you what -take the childrens allowance and give me a council house and a medical card. I'd have no problem with that swap.

I'm sure you will find thousands of people interested in a swap.

imokyrok · 10-09-2009 6:54pm

Max Power1 wrote: »

Its not a luxury but it shouldnt be susbsidised by the state either.
What has giving a medical card/house got to do with it? If you are qualified to get either of these things then obviously you will get the child benefit no matter what they do with means testing or taxing it!

It's not a subsidy. It getting some of what we pay in taxes back.

ntlbell · 10-09-2009 6:56pm

imokyrok wrote: »

It's not a subsidy. It getting some of what we pay in taxes back.

why bother paying taxes in the first place?

you do understand how the tax system works right?

imokyrok · 10-09-2009 7:00pm

ntlbell wrote: »

why bother paying taxes in the first place?

you do understand how the tax system works right?

That is precisely the point. The middle income famililies are paying the taxes and reaping less of the benefits. Thats ok - we want a society which ensures the poorer get their needs met. But if you continue to take from us then we are going to end up just as poor and in need of those benefits ourselves - therefore putting more and more strain on the exchequer. And we won't even talk about how an economy recoveries when nobody buys anything!

I'm starting to think you guys are wind up merchants - Santa Claus a luxury!

Max Power1 · 10-09-2009 7:00pm

imokyrok wrote: »

It's not a subsidy. It getting some of what we pay in taxes back.

Well why bother paying tax at all? We dont need roads, hospital, buses, etc?

Its subsidising the rich's private education as i write, surely you can see that something needs to be done?!

Max Power1 · 10-09-2009 7:02pm

imokyrok wrote: »

I'm starting to think you guys are wind up merchants - Santa Claus a luxury!

It is. The children arent going to starve or not have clothes etc because they dont have the latest games console. Its an optional extra, that if parents choose to have children they should be sure they can afford.

ntlbell · 10-09-2009 7:04pm

imokyrok wrote: »

That is precisely the point. The middle income famililies are paying the taxes and reaping less of the benefits. Thats ok - we want a society which ensures the poorer get their needs met. But if you continue to take from us then we are going to end up just as poor and in need of those benefits ourselves - therefore putting more and more strain on the exchequer. And we won't even talk about how an economy recoveries when nobody buys anything!

I'm starting to think you guys are wind up merchants - Santa Claus a luxury!

and i think you have a problem reading.

santa claus as you put it is not a luxry. (moderen ireland)

spending nearly 2.5k on santa claus is a luxry

again if you can't see why, your out of touch and have no idea what being on the bread line means.

spending 2.5k on xmas is excess wastage and if one has the luxry of spending that much on xmas then no they don't need child benifit and it won't affect there standard of living that much..

penny dropping?

imokyrok · 10-09-2009 7:06pm

Max Power1 wrote: »

Well why bother paying tax at all? We dont need roads, hospital, buses, etc?

Its subsidising the rich's private education as i write, surely you can see that something needs to be done?!

Strangely enough the only person of my acquaintance who has kids in private school did so on a grant from her church cost free because she's a divorcee.

Not every middle income person lives in D4 and send their kids to Blackrock college. Many of us struggle to pay uniforms, books and the "voluntary contribution" every year. That is the reality for many middle income families.

ntlbell · 10-09-2009 7:08pm

imokyrok wrote: »

Strangely enough the only person of my acquaintance who has kids in private school did so on a grant from her church cost free because she's a divorcee.

Not every middle income person lives in D4 and send their kids to Blackrock college. Many of us struggle to pay uniforms, books and the "voluntary contribution" every year. That is the reality for many middle income families.

I don't know what middle class familie's your basing your opinion on that is not the situation for _any_ i know not one.

imokyrok · 10-09-2009 7:14pm

ntlbell wrote: »

I don't know what middle class familie's your basing your opinion on that is not the situation for _any_ i know not one.

Middle income is the phrase I used. Class is an outdated notion. Perhaps we do have very different ideas of what constitutes middle income. What's your idea of the boundary between low income and middle income etc?

Max Power1 · 10-09-2009 7:31pm

imokyrok wrote: »

Strangely enough the only person of my acquaintance who has kids in private school did so on a grant from her church cost free because she's a divorcee.

Not every middle income person lives in D4 and send their kids to Blackrock college. Many of us struggle to pay uniforms, books and the "voluntary contribution" every year. That is the reality for many middle income families.

Thats not really adressing my question fully though. I asked do you acknowledge that the system for paying CB in the current situation is not the most fair, and that something needs to be done to remove the rich from recieving it. Regardless of what they spend it on or save it for, they do not need it.

ntlbell · 10-09-2009 7:38pm

imokyrok wrote: »

Middle income is the phrase I used. Class is an outdated notion. Perhaps we do have very different ideas of what constitutes middle income. What's your idea of the boundary between low income and middle income etc?

middle income middle class whatever makes you feel better about it.

I think a househould that can pull in 70-80k per couple either combined or a single earner would be around where CSO stats would start to put middle income "families"

assuming they're not in the public sector and married that's a take home pay of 5.5 - 6k per month.

Not too shabby?

imokyrok · 10-09-2009 7:47pm

ntlbell wrote: »

middle income middle class whatever makes you feel better about it.

I think a househould that can pull in 70-80k per couple either combined or a single earner would be around where CSO stats would start to put middle income "families"

assuming they're not in the public sector and married that's a take home pay of 5.5 - 6k per month.

Not too shabby?

I find it difficult to find any statistics which commit to what middle income is but I was thinking in terms of a family income of between 50-80k. Having said that a family will live reasonably comfortably on 80k but really struggle to pay the monthly bills on 50.

Cork Boy · 10-09-2009 7:47pm

wow, best/most even debate i've seen on here for a while...

Allow me to summarise:

Anti Child Allowance Tax

1. Middle-Income families have very little dispoable income
2. It therefor follows overtaxing them drops them further down the social scale and makes them more state dependant.
3. Santa is not a luxury

Pro Child Allowance Tax
1. Middle-Income families can do without the child allowance
2. If you have a car and house you are wealthy which brings us back to point 1.

Me, i think it hinges on how you define middle income...

My wage is €25k per annum (private sector). After tax, i get €1800 per month. Here are my basic bills per month:

1. Rent €330
2. Car Insurance €110
3. Parking €120
4. College & car loan repayments €180
5. Household bills (gas, electricity, bins, etc) €150
6. Groceries (i dont do takeaways or ready meals) €200
7. 2xnights out a weekend per month €200
8. Motor tax €50 p/m
9. Diesel €60

That leaves me with 'savings' of €400 per month, or €100 per week. Now, i''ve yet to mention things like clothes, birthday presents, xmas presents, my brother's wedding and stag, my insurance exam fees and other things that pop up during the year.

I can honestly say i do not have a savings account as i couldnt even lodge €100 per month into it.

Are any of the above luxuries? I don't think so.

All of the above are why i wear Durex EXTRA SAFE!!!

Max Power1 · 10-09-2009 7:53pm

Cork Boy wrote: »

wow, best/most even debate i've seen on here for a while...

Allow me to summarise:

Anti Child Allowance Tax

1. Middle-Income families have very little dispoable income
2. It therefor follows overtaxing them drops them further down the social scale and makes them more state dependant.
3. Santa is not a luxury

Pro Child Allowance Tax
1. Middle-Income families can do without the child allowance
2. If you have a car and house you are wealthy which brings us back to point 1.

Me, i think it hinges on how you define middle income...

My wage is €25k per annum (private sector). After tax, i get €1800 per month. Here are my basic bills per month:

1. Rent €330
2. Car Insurance €110
3. Parking €120
4. College & car loan repayments €180
5. Household bills (gas, electricity, bins, etc) €150
6. Groceries (i dont do takeaways or ready meals) €200
7. 2xnights out a weekend per month €200
8. Motor tax €50 p/m
9. Diesel €60

That leaves me with 'savings' of €400 per month, or €100 per week. Now, i''ve yet to mention things like clothes, birthday presents, xmas presents, my brother's wedding and stag, my insurance exam fees and other things that pop up during the year.

I can honestly say i do not have a savings account as i couldnt even lodge €100 per month into it.

Are any of the above luxuries? I don't think so.

All of the above are why i wear Durex EXTRA SAFE!!!

Thing is, I dont think thats classed as middle income and shouldnt theoretically have CB cut. It all harks back to the fact, which I dont think anyone can dispute. There are people in reciepyt of CB in this country that do not need it. This needs to be changed. As far as I can see the best and fairest option is to tax it. If you dont agree with this what viable alternatives can you suggest to achieve the necessary cuts???

ntlbell · 10-09-2009 7:56pm

imokyrok wrote: »

I find it difficult to find any statistics which commit to what middle income is but I was thinking in terms of a family income of between 50-80k. Having said that a family will live reasonably comfortably on 80k but really struggle to pay the monthly bills on 50.

well if the average industrial wage is roughly 35k that's for the whole of ireland, so if you remove everywhere else and just take Dublin it would make it a hell of a lot higher.

so two people on 25k would be well below avg so i'm not sure how that fits in with middle incomes.

if you over extend yourself buy a house you couldn't afford didn't use a large deposit and now have huge monthly outgoings then i dont think you should be getting any help eithier.

Cork Boy · 10-09-2009 7:56pm

i see! i think ye both have very valid points but i want to re-iterate that ye'd probably agree witheachother a lot once ye agree on income brackets.

As €25k is not middle income do you agree €50k combined (pre tax) is not middle income? If they're young and obligation free perhaps but with a kid? yikes!

PS - pm me for your health, car & house insurance dude - i'll sort ya out

imokyrok · 10-09-2009 7:58pm

Max Power1 wrote: »

Thing is, I dont think thats classed as middle income and shouldnt theoretically have CB cut. It all harks back to the fact, which I dont think anyone can dispute. There are people in reciepyt of CB in this country that do not need it. This needs to be changed. As far as I can see the best and fairest option is to tax it. If you dont agree with this what viable alternatives can you suggest to achieve the necessary cuts???

So what is? I've trawled through the CSO sites and ESRI and I can find nothing on what consists of middle income. I beginning to think it's just another one of those efforts by FF to pitch the taxpayers at each others throats.

Cork Boy · 10-09-2009 7:59pm

ntlbell wrote: »

if you over extend yourself buy a house you couldn't afford didn't use a large deposit and now have huge monthly outgoings then i dont think you should be getting any help eithier.

What if they bought a house so they could get a stable environment for their kids? I'd much rather rear a child in my own house rather than a leased property where my tenancy isn't guaranteed and may have to move the family every few years?

ntlbell · 10-09-2009 8:01pm

Cork Boy wrote: »

My wage is €25k per annum (private sector). After tax, i get €1800 per month. Here are my basic bills per month:

1. Rent €330
2. Car Insurance €110
3. Parking €120
4. College & car loan repayments €180
5. Household bills (gas, electricity, bins, etc) €150
6. Groceries (i dont do takeaways or ready meals) €200
7. 2xnights out a weekend per month €200
8. Motor tax €50 p/m
9. Diesel €60

That leaves me with 'savings' of €400 per month, or €100 per week. Now, i''ve yet to mention things like clothes, birthday presents, xmas presents, my brother's wedding and stag, my insurance exam fees and other things that pop up during the year.

I can honestly say i do not have a savings account as i couldnt even lodge €100 per month into it.

Are any of the above luxuries? I don't think so.

I consider owning a car a luxry.

I consider taken out a loan for one stupidity

I consider two nights out a month a huge luxry.

There's 2.4k a month for your savings

or use it to get rid of the loan on the car and stop paying the bank interest.

again it's about perception.

Cork Boy · 10-09-2009 8:02pm

I 100% agree those who dont need CB shouldnt get it.

Here's my alternative solution:

Take a number of civil servants and re-deploy them into the new office of means testing whereby ALL social welfare/benefits are means tested. Rather than have someone doing it in ech dept/office, we have a dedicated, trained, selected core team of testers. Far more effecient.

Oh, and actually prosecute welfare fraud.

ntlbell · 10-09-2009 8:03pm

Cork Boy wrote: »

What if they bought a house so they could get a stable environment for their kids? I'd much rather rear a child in my own house rather than a leased property where my tenancy isn't guaranteed and may have to move the family every few years?

So you have to make a personal call on it.

Do we purchase something we can't afford that will affect us for probably the rest of our lives and then ask the state for help.

rent.

or buy something more affordable?

it's not for me to decide what one should do, but i don't want to have to pay for your mistakes if you make one.

i didn't say buying a house i said over extending to buy one.

Max Power1 · 10-09-2009 8:04pm

imokyrok wrote: »

So what is? I've trawled through the CSO sites and ESRI and I can find nothing on what consists of middle income. I beginning to think it's just another one of those efforts by FF to pitch the taxpayers at each others throats.

AFAIR middle/average income was classed at the last census as 70k for 2 parent families, but I cant find a link so I might be wrong.

For the record, I (like anyone in this country with even half a brain) am anti-FF so dont throw that in there.

You didnt come up with a viable alternative I see? (ignore this point - stupid slow internet grr)

March for Child Benefit

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