Why do some Northern Irish fans call the ROI team "The beggars"?

grenache

luckylucky wrote: »

You were doing fine up to here...


Eh, where have you done your research on that gem :rolleyes:.

They are here 400 years and they haven't inter-married - don't think so.
Gerry Adams, John Hume. Adams and Hume are both planter names
Terence O'Neill. Former Ulster Unionsist Prime Minister of N.I back in the 60s.

How do you know that surnames such as Hume and Adams are not 'Old English' surnames? i.e. the Anglo-Normans who mixed with the native Irish and became more Irish than the natives themselves. It is a fair comment that the vast majority of Unionist people have Scottish/English surnames. And Nationalists generally have Irish names. There are exceptions of course but this is very much in the minority.

Coillte_Bhoy

yayamark wrote: »

Jeez never realised that there was that hatred there.

I for one never have any contact with them so have never seen there hatred for us. It never bothered me when they won or lost. I actually thought they were anti-english by there celebrations when they beat england about a year ago.

Bit sad really

Why wouldnt they celebrate beating England???

rovingrover

yayamark wrote: »

Jeez never realised that there was that hatred there.

I for one never have any contact with them so have never seen there hatred for us. It never bothered me when they won or lost. I actually thought they were anti-english by there celebrations when they beat england about a year ago.

Bit sad really

They are anti Spanish too. You should have seen the celebrations when they beat them.

dogpile

briany wrote: »

:eek:

The thing is I, along with most other people in the Republic I'm sure, would have dearly loved to see our neighbours qualify and do well .

Count me out, can't stand em :rolleyes: their media goes overboard with a few wins just like Englands only on a much tinier scale......plus their accents just gets on my fking goat!!

A Dub in Glasgo

Begger is a reference to the famine, I have encountered the term in my time in Glasgow (by the moronic few I might add)

Coillte_Bhoy

rovingrover wrote: »

They are anti Spanish too. You should have seen the celebrations when they beat them.

elshambo

Why do some Northern Irish fans call the ROI team "The beggars"?

Because they are wracked with insecurities and self loathing


Pretty much standard answer to any question to do with the North:rolleyes:

blinding

To them it beggars belief as to how much better than them we are.

luckylucky

grenache wrote: »

How do you know that surnames such as Hume and Adams are not 'Old English' surnames? i.e. the Anglo-Normans who mixed with the native Irish and became more Irish than the natives themselves. It is a fair comment that the vast majority of Unionist people have Scottish/English surnames. And Nationalists generally have Irish names. There are exceptions of course but this is very much in the minority.

Well I have heard numerous times that Adams and Hume are planter names. I'm familiar enough with Anglo-Norman names - my mother's surname Barry being one for example - I'm pretty sure Hume and Adams are not Anglo-Norman. A girl I used to know also is married to an Adams from the North who happens to be Presbyterian.

I don't know what age you are, but over the years I've been watching TV I've seen lots of northerners with surnames that don't match up to their side of the divide.
Added to the ones I mentioned here's another few Ronny Flanagan - former head of the RUC.
Some of the Shankill butchers had Taig surnames - Murphy and Kennedy I believe.

Also of the northerners I have met - I have met plenty with 'mixed' parentage. Some of them who were Catholics with 'typical' Protestant surnames said it got them out of trouble on a few occasions.

Over 400 years being side by side I think it's extremely naive to think there has been little admixing going on tbh. Think about it really, if Protestant lad X fancies the arse off of Catholic lass Y and she feels the same about him. I'm sure love/hormones came(excuse the pun ) out on top over religion on many occasion over the centuries. Also don't forget there were conversions from one side to the other - it was socially advantageous to be Protestant so some 'native' Irish converted. Changes of surname possibly happened also.

My best 'educated' guess is that ethnically speaking Protestants in the North are about 70/30 to 80/20 British/Irish. And Catholics about 65/35 to 75/25 Irish/British. Even if those ratios are a bit off, on the evidence I've seen it's not the extreme minority that you hold it to be, that's for sure.

~Rebel~

A Primal Nut wrote: »

They had a green and blue jersey a few years ago. Four squares - top left green, top right blue, bottom left blue, bottom right green. It was horrible though. Can't find an image now!

This be it.



ick.

grenache

luckylucky wrote: »

Well I have heard numerous times that Adams and Hume are planter names. I'm familiar enough with Anglo-Norman names - my mother's surname Barry being one for example - I'm pretty sure Hume and Adams are not Anglo-Norman. A girl I used to know also is married to an Adams from the North who happens to be Presbyterian.

I don't know what age you are, but over the years I've been watching TV I've seen lots of northerners with surnames that don't match up to their side of the divide.
Added to the ones I mentioned here's another few Ronny Flanagan - former head of the RUC.
Some of the Shankill butchers had Taig surnames - Murphy and Kennedy I believe.

Also of the northerners I have met - I have met plenty with 'mixed' parentage. Some of them who were Catholics with 'typical' Protestant surnames said it got them out of trouble on a few occasions.

Over 400 years being side by side I think it's extremely naive to think there has been little admixing going on tbh. Think about it really, if Protestant lad X fancies the arse off of Catholic lass Y and she feels the same about him. I'm sure love/hormones came(excuse the pun ) out on top over religion on many occasion over the centuries. Also don't forget there were conversions from one side to the other - it was socially advantageous to be Protestant so some 'native' Irish converted. Changes of surname possibly happened also.

My best 'educated' guess is that ethnically speaking Protestants in the North are about 70/30 to 80/20 British/Irish. And Catholics about 65/35 to 75/25 Irish/British. Even if those ratios are a bit off, on the evidence I've seen it's not the extreme minority that you hold it to be, that's for sure.

You've argued your point well and i'll bow to your superior knowledge on the inter-marriage issue. Getting back to my original point, i still think the majority of Unionist people see themselves as British. Sure there are guys like the late David Ervine that see themselves as Irish within the Union, but from what i've seen, these folk are a minority.

Des wrote: »

lol

Something funny i missed?

blinding

If I thought it would do any good I would "beg" that they stop calling us disparaging reamarks for no apparent reason.

Are their NI posters out there that would like to clarify as to why some of them call us "the beggars"

podge018

can you not read? it's to do with the famine.

blinding

podge018 wrote: »

can you not read? it's to do with the famine.

Did we have soccer teams during the famine!

dogpile

blinding wrote: »

Did we have soccer teams during the famine!

And how where the potatoe crops in the 6 counties at that time??


maybe they ate cake

stovelid

I lived very close to Windsor Park for a while. Used to hear some choice chants from people to the way to games - most not repeatable.

Don't have any strong feeling for the NI team bar a vague wish for them to do better than most other teams. The same feeling that I have for Wales or Scotland really. Basically, it's not that far up the scale from not caring.

podge018

blinding wrote: »

Did we have soccer teams during the famine!

No, and people from Hartlepool don't hang monkeys any more either.

blinding

blinding wrote: »

Did we have soccer teams during the famine!

podge018 wrote: »

No, and people from Hartlepool don't hang monkeys any more either.

They are two fairly strange things to connect ! !

nlgbbbblth

lisbon_lions wrote: »

Meh, I greet them with a morbid curiosity like say a doctor would a weird growth.

Seen as they feel the need to belittle us and always will do, I think our major tournaments are better off without them. 82 was a blip and thankfully they remain to be minnows and point gathering cannon fodder for others on their travels to these tournaments - despite what flawed fifa rankings may say.

Let them wallow and drown in their own bitter stew I say.

I can't understand how Irish Celtic fans continued to support the club when Martin O'Neill was appointed. After all he was a former N.I. player and still shouts for them when they play.

luckylucky

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

I can't understand how Irish Celtic fans continued to support the club when Martin O'Neill was appointed. After all he was a former N.I. player and still shouts for them when they play.

weak.

nlgbbbblth

luckylucky wrote: »

weak.

justify that comment or keep it shut

luckylucky

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

justify that comment or keep it shut

Well I really shouldn't as

• If you are going to make some silly argument in the first place it doesn't really merit it.
• Also keep it shut is borderline personal attack I would think.

Anyway I will since your statement was so crap and wrong on so many levels.

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

I can't understand how Irish Celtic fans continued to support the club when Martin O'Neill was appointed. After all he was a former N.I. player and still shouts for them when they play.

• Why the hell wouldn't he have played for them - he's from N.I and therefore afaik only eligible to play for them as many many other catholic players were. If we were to hold that against him then we would really be bigots.
  
• Since he played for them it stands to reason that he would support them.
  
• I also imagine that he is supportive of Republic of Ireland when they play and hardly refers to us as 'The Beggars'
  
• Also Alex McLeish used to manage Hibernian did Rangers supporters have it in for him coz of this. No and rightly so.

If you said people shouldn't support Celtic and/or other British teams and concentrate on supporting LOI teams then there are certainly arguments for that but your argument is weak and looks like designed to just rub people up the wrong way.

nlgbbbblth

luckylucky wrote: »

[*]Why the hell wouldn't he have played for them - he's from N.I and therefore afaik only eligible to play for them as many many other catholic players were. If we were to hold that against him then we would really be bigots.

[*]Also Alex McLeish used to manage Hibernian did Rangers supporters have it in for him coz of this. No and rightly so.
[/LIST]

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Players born in the occupied six counties have turned out for the Republic of Ireland. It would be interesting to see if M O'N could have been permitted to do likewise when he was commencing his career (early 70s). Perhaps somebody might clarify this?

Re: Alex McLeish. You're probably right. But there's plenty of players who have turned out for Rangers who get booed off the pitch when playing for their country against the Republic Of Ireland. So some people do carry a grudge about these things. And I imagine that for some people, hatred for Rangers and the Northern Ireland side would go hand-in-hand hence my surprise at the selective hypocrisy on display.

podge018

blinding wrote: »

They are two fairly strange things to connect ! !

Just showing that you can still call people nicknames over something that happned a long time ago.

blinding

podge018 wrote: »

Just showing that you can still call people nicknames over something that happned a long time ago.

I see where you are coming from now.

Happy Monday

grenache wrote: »

Getting back to my original point, i still think the majority of Unionist people see themselves as British. Sure there are guys like the late David Ervine that see themselves as Irish within the Union, but from what i've seen, these folk are a minority.

It depends on who is asking the question.

If an English person asks the question they will say Irish as their Britishness is not questioned.
If someone from down here asks they will tend to say British as they feel threatened.

luckylucky

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Np, soz if my response was a bit harsh. We're obviously just looking at things from totally different angles.

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

But there's plenty of players who have turned out for Rangers who get booed off the pitch when playing for their country against the Republic Of Ireland.

I think a lot of that sort of booing is more an excuse to have a crack off a player rather than outright hatred of the player coz he plays for Rangers. In a few cases it probably is but not in the vast majority I would think. Also at a football match all it takes is for a few people to start off booing or any sort of chant and before you know everyone is doing it regardless of what they actually feel.

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

So some people do carry a grudge about these things. And I imagine that for some people, hatred for Rangers and the Northern Ireland side would go hand-in-hand hence my surprise at the selective hypocrisy on display.

I think there's all different levels of 'hatred'. And hatred is a very strong word and not quite the right word I would think. Personally I'm not overly fond of either Rangers or N.I. but I certainly don't feel outright hatred. Like if I get talking to some Scottish guy who supports Rangers I'm not exactly going to hold that against them as a person (Of course if he has tattoos of 'God Save the queen', 'UFF' etc - I'd sort of avoid getting chatting to him in the first place ) - now that would be pathetically silly and I know they are exceptions but I think my way of thinking on that is the norm. At the end of the day people are just people after all.

Well I think as I displayed already that saying supporting Celtic coz M O'N used to play for N.I. is hypocritical is very very weak tbh.

Benedict XVI

grenache wrote: »

I dont agree with your view of them being 'Irish within the wider British family', since Britain and Ireland are too separate islands and two different races.

So people cannot be Irish-American either, cos they are two separate places (not islands, but places)

Happy Monday wrote: »

It depends on who is asking the question.

If an English person asks the question they will say Irish as their Britishness is not questioned.
If someone from down here asks they will tend to say British as they feel threatened.

Good point, and that is where I am coming from where some people from NI see themselves as Irish within the wider British family

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Begger is a reference to the famine, I have encountered the term in my time in Glasgow (by the moronic few I might add)

It's a term I have heard used many times, especially by older people, to describe some one who has a bit bit of misfortune.

eg. so and so down the road fell of a ladder and broke his arm the poor 'begger'

bobbysands81

"Beggers" is a reference to the (so called) famine days.

What these eejits fail to understand is that the potato blight did not just kill "Irish" people but killed many a person born on this island but considered themselves "British".

rovingrover

I actually think it refers to our attitude to the old EEC or current EU. we had the begging bowl out for years and were known as the beggars of Europe. TBH I don't know for sure though. You could ask them.

anonymous_joe

rovingrover wrote: »

I actually think it refers to our attitude to the old EEC or current EU. we had the begging bowl out for years and were known as the beggars of Europe. TBH I don't know for sure though. You could ask them.

I think we can all safely say it's not a term of endearment. :pac:

Nalz

bobbysands81 wrote: »

"Beggers" is a reference to the (so called) famine days.

What these eejits fail to understand is that the potato blight did not just kill "Irish" people but killed many a person born on this island but considered themselves "British".

Yep they're eejits. But I dont think ANYBODY should really care what they say, north or south.

briany

Are there no supporters of the NI team on these boards who could comment definitively on the matter?

_blank_

I'd say any NI fans using a website ending in .ie will be few and far between tbh.

luckylucky

rovingrover wrote: »

I actually think it refers to our attitude to the old EEC or current EU. we had the begging bowl out for years and were known as the beggars of Europe. TBH I don't know for sure though. You could ask them.

briany wrote: »

Are there no supporters of the NI team on these boards who could comment definitively on the matter?

Have ye not been told over and over again on this thread that it's a reference to the famine

Sherifu

/makes a note for next time i'm on a norn iron message board.

Zebra3

grenache wrote: »

The real question that needs to be asked is why do the North even play in green? Considering their hatred for most things of the emerald shade, they're quite happy to clad themselves in it for hours on end.

Actually the original Ireland team (the pre-1921 one run by the the IFA in Belfast) wore blue-St Patrick's blue. Sadly the extremist catholics in this country replaced blue with green as the colour associated with St Patrick. :rolleyes:

Not sure when the IFA switched to wearing green though.

A Dub in Glasgo

Zebra3 wrote: »

Actually the original Ireland team (the pre-1921 one run by the the IFA in Belfast) wore blue-St Patrick's blue. Sadly the extremist catholics in this country replaced blue with green as the colour associated with St Patrick. :rolleyes:

Probably more to do with becoming independent from Britain therefore there was no need to keep British Monarchy things going

everdead.ie

A_Fitz wrote: »

Ya, but the North despise us!

Depends who you ask really, I know that i do hope that both sides of the border make it to the world cup.


I think we've come a long way in the last 20 odd years but some people refuse to move on and move with the times I don't think this guy has and you'll find he's become irrelevant IMO.

rovingrover

Zebra3 wrote: »

Actually the original Ireland team (the pre-1921 one run by the the IFA in Belfast) wore blue-St Patrick's blue. Sadly the extremist catholics in this country replaced blue with green as the colour associated with St Patrick. :rolleyes:

Not sure when the IFA switched to wearing green though.

Do you have a source for this?

Blue was seen as the original colour of Ireland.

rovingrover

luckylucky wrote: »

Have ye not been told over and over again on this thread that it's a reference to the famine

Yes but without a source.