Seriously - Will The Irish Public Please cop The Hell On!

Dublin_Gunner

Húrin wrote: »

It's not about what I think. It's about what the relevant science says.

In fairness (and this is all OT btw) whatever science is relevant, is the science that you believe. Both sides claim to 'prove' their argument, and both sides of said argument are held up by acclaimed scientists. I'm not gonna bother trawling for links, but you know its true.

Huggles

And now Willie O'Dea wants 104million for two new Navy ships

FFS - If I didn't know better I would think they were trying to incite revolution

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/minister-wants-8364104m-to-buy-new-boats-for-navy-1884076.html

Huggles

There is a general election?

Banbh wrote: »

Well we have a vote next week that can get rid of this rotten government.

Biggins

Huggles wrote: »

And now Willie O'Dea wants 104million for two new Navy ships

FFS - If I didn't know better I would think they were trying to incite revolution

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/minister-wants-8364104m-to-buy-new-boats-for-navy-1884076.html

Can we sail them up the Liffy and aim their weapons at the Dail on the first day back?

monument

I can see where your anger comes from, but any funding for the cycle track in question is coming from the Department of Transport, it's from the transport budget not the health budget.

I'm open to correction, but the central problems with the health system seems to be how it is being run -- being run by managers rather than doctors and others in health care, too many managers, and a focus on privatisation which is not focused on people etc. Funding problems seem to be miss or overspending on wages and other areas.

On the spending on cycle tracks -- the reason behind Denmark and the Netherlands invested in them 20 or so years ago is not because they all were mad cyclists or green hippies. It's because the provision of high quality cycle lanes (like this new one) is more cost effective than investment in any other form of transport. It's more cost effective then public transport and way more cost effective than investment in private transport. It's also simply more effective. There's the clear issue that Dublin is full. Every new cyclist on the road means more room on the road and less congestion, or more room on public transport. Quite simply, it's cheaper.

And forget about the ice caps, climate change or whatever. The emissions, air and noise pollution, from motored traffic (currently including our buses) has a direct affect on the health of the population of the city. You don't need to care about the environment. Question climate change if you want, but the affect air and noise pollution from motored traffic has on humans has been proven (both make the city less attractive too). And even if you don't believe that, getting more people cycling has clear health benefits. Obesity is one of main health problems the nation faces, but it goes far beyond that, being regularly active is beneficial generally to people's physical and mental heath in the short and long term.

Dublin_Gunner

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Secondly, would people please stop and think first, before they start criticising the set up of NAMA and the bank bail outs?? Seriously, where are people going to get their car loans, house loans etc if the countries banking system failed. The Credit Union? :rolleyes:

There must be hundreds of posts on boards by now exposing why NAMA is such a bad idea and a total rip off of the tax payers. Or can you not be bothered to look?

People aren't saying to do nothing at all, but to have a more sensible approach where the tax payer will be the one who comes out on top at the expense of the banks and their investors. There isn't even much of an incentive for the banks to loan once NAMA is implemented. What their is is a strong incentive for them to shoot up rates/bank charges to screw us AGAIN.

My advice to anyone thinking they know it all about nama because they heard a few soundbites on the news is that you should take a look at what it's actually proposing. Free cash for private investors from our pockets into theirs. We get poorer, they get richer. I outlined some thoughts in a different thread in politics about why I'll be marching..

1 - The fact that the banks have very little incentive to clean up their acts.
2 - Nobody gets fired over the whole debacle.
3 - The transfer of wealth from tax payers to PRIVATE investors (who took a risk investing - lets remember).
4 - No reason for the banks to all of a sudden start lending.
5 - Plenty of reason for them to invest a lot of their freed up money outside of Ireland.
6 - Bank fee's/rates pretty much guaranteed to rise as soon as nama is (and hopefully it wont be) implemented - screwing over the same people bailing them out.
7 - the secrecy of the whole thing. This seems to be the only option that keeps all of the dodgy deals secret, and also the only option that totally lets the developers off the hook.
8 - if ANY of this supposed good land that will rise again in price is *so* good then why aren't AIB holding onto it?


What do I think? Nationalisation with an injection of cash. We can clean up the banks then, and then sell them on in a few years for a profit. This is the only way I can see us making any money or at least coming as close as possible to breaking even in this whole scenario - and at least having control over how the money is spent. If it's our bank they'll be accountable to us - not private shareholders.
NAMA on it's own merely rips us off, for the sake of bankers and developers and private investors. It does nothing much to help anyone else (besides them lending our own money back to us at a higher rate of interest).

I really don't see what we're getting out of it, as the ones taking all the risk and putting in all the money - Can anyone explain that part to me?

cherryghost

nice post biggins.

I'll be 100% behind any action thats to take place. wouldnt it be mad if, instead of protesting in dubin, the boardsies march in the biggest town of their county? that'll surely give a lot more notice than a couple of thousand going to dublin. some people dont have the luxury and ability to reach dublin so easily.

myself though, no. I'm down for whatever :pac:

Poccington

Huggles wrote: »

And now Willie O'Dea wants 104million for two new Navy ships

FFS - If I didn't know better I would think they were trying to incite revolution

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/minister-wants-8364104m-to-buy-new-boats-for-navy-1884076.html

Revolution?

How is the simple fact that you need to replace ships when they've reached the end of their 30 year lifespan of service, trying to incite revolution?

Ruu_Old

I can still hear those 'ah sure, the other crowd wouldn't do any better', 'there is no alternative government' people talking.:mad: Great post by the way Biggins, I think the government have more taking to do and are not finished yet.

monument

Ruu wrote: »

I can still hear those 'ah sure, the other crowd wouldn't do any better', 'there is no alternative government' talking.:mad: Great post by the way Biggins, I think the government have more taking to do and are not finished yet.

A great post? What has cycle lane funding have to with the mess that is the health care system?

That is besides the health benefits that cycling gives.

cherryghost

theres an online petition here

http://www.petitiononline.com/IEGOV/petition.html

kavoweb

Its just stomach turning. I am totally up for being involved in some kind of revolt. I have 3 young kids,and to see the change in this country over even the last ten years is scary,i shudder to think what it will be like when they are in college. NOW is the time to take a stand to ensure their chance at a fair throw of the dice is secured,because we all know now that our chance has been ruined by the "jobs for the boys" mentality, within government. We are a young country,being squeezed to death in a stranglehold of whispers,nods and winks from behind the doors of a 'democratic' museum full of dinosaurs whose only dedication to politics was to be born into a long standing,brown envelope dynasty. I am SICK of it and plan to do something about it because you can be guaranteed NOBODY within that stinking,foul cesspool will bother their arse doing it. ENOUGH is ENOUGH.

Ruu_Old

monument wrote: »

A great post? What has cycle lane funding have to with the mess that is the health care system?

That is besides the health benefits that cycling gives.

The money for the bike lane should be allocated elsewhere, where it is needed most. A bike won't help those already on their deathbed, will it now?

More wasted money to the tune of €54.5 million.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0911/candag.html

General Zod

Ruu wrote: »

The money for the bike lane should be allocated elsewhere, where it is needed most. A bike won't help those already on their deathbed, will it now?

Neither would the cervical cancer jab. It's a preventative measure, just as investment in cycle lanes will promote general health overall.

My name is URL

Ruu wrote: »

The money for the bike lane should be allocated elsewhere, where it is needed most. A bike won't help those already on their deathbed, will it now?

With all respect, it shouldn't. The money for bike lanes etc is supplied by the Dept of Transport, it's up to the HSE to allocate funds for health services.

They have the money but use it to support it's bloated self instead of properly allocating money.

Everything else shouldn't have to grind to a halt just because one department is too inept to run itself correctly.

trout

What really gets my goat is the media-savvy politicos indignantly calling for resignations at the top level in FAS and in the Banks ... with not one word of condemnation for the scurrilous behaviour of their own colleagues (unvouched ministerial expenses, anyone ?). The amount of TD's gone to ground in recent months, including Cowen, is an indication to me that not only have they no answers, they feel no responsibility either.

I know it's the summer break, but it appears that Brian Lenihan is the only one of them shaking a leg right now - for all that's happened, I think he is genuinely working at a better tomorrow ... I think other TD's could emulate his work ethic if nothing else.

I'm not saying FF / Greens have any answers, I believe they don't. I don't believe the other parties are credible alternatives either.

As angry and fed-up as I am ... I don't see any positive outcome for mass demonstrations; you might get to vent your frustration ... but how will anything change for the better ? You might make more impact by drop-kicking any party figures you see floating about ... strike a blow for the common man indeed.

That chap who threw his shoes at George Bush ... I thought he was mad then, but now I know how he felt.

Blazer

Biggins...you know yourself it's the typical Irish mentality that allows TD's etc to get away with anything they want.
Quotes like "ah shure you can't blame them", "they're all doing it", "we'd do it ourselves in the same board" etc etc.
The problem is Irish people are sheep.
They can bitch and moan and stamp their feet but the Government know that give them a few days they'll be bitching about the weather or what yer one was wearing on the news last night etc.
You only have to look at our history to see that....only for a few patriots back in the 1900's we'd still be under English rule.
The majority of people in this country are quite happy to moan and crib and say "we won't stand for this anymore"...but what they really want is someone like you Biggins to sort it out for them with no risk to themselves etc.
Quite frankly they're cowards and are perfectly content to keep their heads below the pulpit and let someone else take all the risks so they can have a better life.
It's really human nature across the globe if you look at it...

And if you look at it another way

http://hubpages.com/hub/The_Good_of_the_Many_or_the_One_Morality_in_Command

monument

Ruu wrote: »

The money for the bike lane should be allocated elsewhere, where it is needed most. A bike won't help those already on their deathbed, will it now?

What about the future?

What about the general population?

Are we to drop all general health measures?

Getting more people cycling, and remember this cycle track will be of benefit to commuters and for exercise and recreation, has direct health benefits. Proven benefits for mental and physical health. Obesity is said to be one of our main, if not the main health problem for now and it's growing. The general health benefits of being even a bit more active are clear.

And getting more people cycling rather than driving you have direct benefits for everybody, not just cyclists. Air pollution effects everybody. Noise pollution has been directly linked with high blood pressure and hart attacks (one example, here -- "Noise pollution from transport is linked to 50,000 fatal heart attacks in the EU every year, researchers have claimed").

Furthermore, there's all sorts of other benefits: A generally heather population that cycling can give means a more productive workforce, and less money is then needed for health care, more focus then on the people who need it. It mean less spending on public transport, less spending needed for road maintenance, so more moeny for the important things. It means less traffic and more predictable journey times improving work and private life. It means a far nice city which has all sorts of benefits including tourism and making the city more attract place to do business. Even if you just increase cycling levels a little you get some benefit, more investment means more benefits.

Lord Trollington

My name is URL wrote: »

With all respect, it shouldn't. The money for bike lanes etc is supplied by the Dept of Transport, it's up to the HSE to allocate funds for health services. .

Its the Irish Tax payer who is providing the money for these departments.

The cirvical jab is a preventative measure for future generations yes, but how many other area's are suffering from within the Health area like ward closures ect...

I know plenty of people that if a cycle lane was built, they still wouldnt use it.

If you want ot cycle you'll cycle, regardless if there is a cycle lane or not.

Lord Trollington

monument wrote: »

What about the future?

What about the general population?

Are we to drop all general health measures?

Getting more people cycling, and remember this cycle track will be of benefit to commuters and for exercise and recreation, has direct health benefits. Proven benefits for mental and physical health. Obesity is said to be one of our main, if not the main health problem for now and it's growing. The general health benefits of being even a bit more active are clear.

And getting more people cycling rather than driving you have direct benefits for everybody, not just cyclists. Air pollution effects everybody. Noise pollution has been directly linked with high blood pressure and hart attacks (one example, here -- "Noise pollution from transport is linked to 50,000 fatal heart attacks in the EU every year, researchers have claimed").

Furthermore, there's all sorts of other benefits: A generally heather population that cycling can give means a more productive workforce, and less money is then needed for health care, more focus then on the people who need it. It mean less spending on public transport, less spending needed for road maintenance, so more moeny for the important things. It means less traffic and more predictable journey times improving work and private life. It means a far nice city which has all sorts of benefits including tourism and making the city more attract place to do business. Even if you just increase cycling levels a little you get some benefit, more investment means more benefits.

Just because they build a cycle lane doens't mean thousands are automatically going to jump on their bikes to go to work,school,college ect...
What about employers providing facitlities for people to ready themselves for work when they arrive?

Will businesses want to invest to provide these facilities?

Also with the weather we've been having recently, who would want to jump on their bike to go to work/college to be wet to the bone when they arrive?

My name is URL

whycliff wrote: »

Its the Irish Tax payer who is providing the money for these departments.

The cirvical jab is a preventative measure for future generations yes, but how many other area's are suffering from within the Health area like ward closures ect...

I know plenty of people that if a cycle lane was built, they still wouldnt use it.

If you want ot cycle you'll cycle, regardless if there is a cycle lane or not.

Yeah, it's the Irish taxpayer funding all Depts.

The spending on health this year will be over 40% of the budget !!

Why the fcuk should it be even more than that just because the HSE won't spend it correctly? I don't care what anyone says or thinks of me for saying this but using spending from other depts as a platform to incite hatred is low

I say good luck to the Depts that are spending the money allocated to them wisely.. it's not a health issue at all so there's no reason to use it as a bullet point

monument

whycliff wrote: »

If you want ot cycle you'll cycle, regardless if there is a cycle lane or not.

That may be true of current cyclists. But this is about getting more people cycling. There's loads of people who would cycle or cycle more if there are proper cycle lanes provided.

Where there are proper cycle tracks provided more people cycle. Look at the cycle track along Fairview and Clontarf (which this new track will link to). Look at Denmark, the Netherlands, and any country or city with high levels of cycling.

Dublin_Gunner

monument wrote: »

What about the future?

What about the general population?

Are we to drop all general health measures?

Getting more people cycling, and remember this cycle track will be of benefit to commuters and for exercise and recreation, has direct health benefits. Proven benefits for mental and physical health. Obesity is said to be one of our main, if not the main health problem for now and it's growing. The general health benefits of being even a bit more active are clear.

And getting more people cycling rather than driving you have direct benefits for everybody, not just cyclists. Air pollution effects everybody. Noise pollution has been directly linked with high blood pressure and hart attacks (one example, here -- "Noise pollution from transport is linked to 50,000 fatal heart attacks in the EU every year, researchers have claimed").

Furthermore, there's all sorts of other benefits: A generally heather population that cycling can give means a more productive workforce, and less money is then needed for health care, more focus then on the people who need it. It mean less spending on public transport, less spending needed for road maintenance, so more moeny for the important things. It means less traffic and more predictable journey times improving work and private life. It means a far nice city which has all sorts of benefits including tourism and making the city more attract place to do business. Even if you just increase cycling levels a little you get some benefit, more investment means more benefits.

Build a road, people will drive on it. Build a cycle track, the same people will drive alongside it.

There are already numerous cycle lanes in and around Dublin - most of which are empty the majority of the time.

If fairness, a cycle lane does not encourage people to cycle, or promote cycling in any way. Its just a way to provide a slightly safer option for something you could already do.

If they want people to cycle, instead of using their cars, they need to provide incentives. Like the communal bicycle thing they're planning, or fully covered cycle tracks to keep you out of the rain.

I don't see many people suddenly deciding to cycle to work, unless they could be guaranteed to arrive dry, and not smelling like a dead fish - if there are no showers in the office. Plus, where do you put the bike when you get there?

And IMO - a complete waste of money at the moment.

Papad

Any politician looking at this thread will be rolling in laughter:
"Look at 'em, arguing about a bike lane.
We're safe lads, back to our auld tricks."

Lord Trollington

My name is URL wrote: »

Yeah, it's the Irish taxpayer funding all Depts.

The spending on health this year will be over 40% !!

Why the fcuk should it be even more than that just because the HSE won't spend it correctly? I don't care what anyone says or thinks of me for saying this but using spending from other depts as a platform to incite hatred is low

I say good luck to the Depts that are spending the money allocated to them wisely.. it's not a health issue at all so there's no reason to use it as a bullet point

I'm not sure on exact figures so i wont quote any, however its all well and good to say its spending over 40% of revenue, when revenue is going to be down by huge amounts...

peasant

monument wrote: »

What about the future?

What about the general population?

Are we to drop all general health measures?

Will you get real?

10 million squandered on a fecking cycle lane in the dublin heartland of the green party to appease them is now a general health measure ?


lots of people already have named examples where that money could be better spent ...here's another one;

The northwest has recently lost its breast cancer treatment facility in Sligo. Instead the affected women are supposed to travel to Galway. There are a few problems though:

- the designated breast cancer ward in Galway was full beyond capacity before this measure, is now overloaded and is facing yet more cuts in capacity ...no money in the health budget, you see

- it takes longer to travel to Galway by car than it does to Dublin ...bad roads, you see

- there are no trains to Galway ...refurb of the already existing western rail corridor shelved, you see

- the frequency of buses running to Galway has just been cut ...no money, you see

- never mind taking the plane ...you'd have to go to Dublin first because there are no subsidies for a west coast air-link, you see


And now you're trying to tell me that I should feel pleased because some green cyclopaths get a cycling road thrown at them for 10 million for rowing in behind the governement?

Feck off !

Lord Trollington

monument wrote: »

That may be true of current cyclists. But this is about getting more people cycling. There's loads of people who would cycle or cycle more if there are proper cycle lanes provided.

Where there are proper cycle tracks provided more people cycle. Look at the cycle track along Fairview and Clontarf (which this new track will link to). Look at Denmark, the Netherlands, and any country or city with high levels of cycling.

Its a part of their culture in those countries to cycle... Its not the kind of thing that can change over night..
It has to be gradually ontroduced into our lifestyles and work place.
Firstly facilities need to be provided in the work place for people to shower ect prior to work.
This would be more of a help that a bike track in my opinion.
But businesses will not invest in anything at the moment.

monument

whycliff wrote: »

Just because they build a cycle lane doens't mean thousands are automatically going to jump on their bikes to go to work,school,college ect...

You're right. No, it doesn't. Cycle lanes are just one which is been done on a local and national level to get people cycling more.

Dublin city is putting 350 rental bikes on the streets from this Sunday, see here. Government at different levels are starting to work with schools on cycle training, for one example see here. Financial incentives have been put in place, see here. The Department of Transport has recently released a wide-ranging cycle policy document, which even if partly implemented will make cycling more attractive, see here.

whycliff wrote: »

What about employers providing facitlities for people to ready themselves for work when they arrive?

Will businesses want to invest to provide these facilities?

Facilities come with time, some employers are starting to provide them. But most cycling journeys can be cycled like a normal person, without gear, without going too fast, see here.

whycliff wrote: »

Also with the weather we've been having recently, who would want to jump on their bike to go to work/college to be wet to the bone when they arrive?

Dublin's weather is comparable to Copenhagen and Amsterdam, for more see here. If large numbers of people in those cities can cycle, why not here?

Since moving to Dublin about three years ago I have mostly cycled to work and college. I can only remember one or two times getting anyway close to "wet to the bone" -- both were my own fault, not having mud guards was one of them and not having a coat or any rain gear was the other.

pickarooney

Bike paths? About time.`

monument

whycliff wrote: »

Its a part of their culture in those countries to cycle... Its not the kind of thing that can change over night..
It has to be gradually ontroduced into our lifestyles and work place.

It may be now part of their culture, but it was not part of their culture any more than it was of ours before they started to build high quality cycle lanes. People in Denmark and the Netherlands are not natural cyclists, their built environment is was changed. That's the key change.

And you're right again, it's not going to change over night. The things that are happening now are the building blocks. As somebody said to me the other day -- we know what the Danes and Dutch did, so we can do it quicker, it might not be over night, but it can be faster than 20 years or more. A seven percent increase in commuting cycling in Dublin in the last traffic count can be just the start.