Declan Ganley is back

AARRRGH

The most striking is Article 48, universally known by its French nickname, the passerelle clause. It says that "with just intergovernmental agreement, with no need of going back to the citizens anywhere, they can make any change to this constitutional document, adding any new powers, without having to revisit an electorate anywhere," Mr. Ganley explains.

Is that true? If it is it's a very powerful reason why we should all vote no.

ninty9er

AARRRGH wrote: »

Is that true? If it is it's a very powerful reason why we should all vote no.

It doesn't matter. They can make any change the want to Nice as it is, it doesn't change the competences vested in European Institutions under Nice, the same way as any further competence to be granted post Lisbon would also require a referendum if the changes required a constitutional amendment.

Lisbon would have been passed long ago were it not for the fact that it requires a constitutional amendment due to a minimal amount of articles within it. The Irish people would not have a say on this otherwise. As it stands our government can make binding agreements with other nations without referendum because they don't require constitutional amendment. At this juncture a referendum is required and the same goes for anything which relates to the constitution in future. In essence Article 48 says "Business as usual."

andrewdeerpark

Declan Ganley still has not fully answered all questions regarding his financing of the last Libertas NO campaign

He has no elected mandate, had none the last time and failed in his bid miserable during the last European election, with him threating the returning officer and running around with his legal team claiming conspiracy for his failure to get elected.

As Dick Roche once said (and he is not any great guy himself) a snake oil salesman, right wing fanatic who is no good for any country with to many secrets behind him.

He seems to have the connections with the media though as all the rest of us unelected folk have to ring Joe Duffy and get in line for our few minutes access to the national airways why he marches at will onto our screens and radios without any elected mandate, that must not happen this time.

AARRRGH

ninty9er wrote: »

It doesn't matter. They can make any change the want to Nice as it is, it doesn't change the competences vested in European Institutions under Nice, the same way as any further competence to be granted post Lisbon would also require a referendum if the changes required a constitutional amendment.

Lisbon would have been passed long ago were it not for the fact that it requires a constitutional amendment due to a minimal amount of articles within it. The Irish people would not have a say on this otherwise. As it stands our government can make binding agreements with other nations without referendum because they don't require constitutional amendment. At this juncture a referendum is required and the same goes for anything which relates to the constitution in future. In essence Article 48 says "Business as usual."

Does it not bother you though that they are putting that sort of thing in their treaties? To me it's a very obvious symptom that something is wrong.

I know we think we're all modern now and what happened in history will never happen again, but the countries in Europe have a very long and rich history of being total scumbags, so the idea of voting for something which they can change whenever they want seems very naive.

ninty9er

AARRRGH wrote: »

Does it not bother you though that they are putting that sort of thing in their treaties? To me it's a very obvious symptom that something is wrong.

I know we think we're all modern now and what happened in history will never happen again, but the countries in Europe have a very long and rich history of being total scumbags, so the idea of voting for something which they can change whenever they want seems very naive.

It would require inter-governmental support now, whereas currently the EU institutions are top-heavy with the Commission wielding a lot of power that will be stripped by Lisbon. National Parliaments will for the first time have a role in drafting EU agreements, currently they are just given time to implement what is sent from Europe regardless of what the members think of it.

Bottom line is that for better or worse, Lisbon vests more power in the democratic instutions of Europe and it's member nations. I think its better.

PopeBuckfastXVI

AARRRGH wrote: »

Is that true? If it is it's a very powerful reason why we should all vote no.

No it's not true, it's a lie.

JonathanAnon

On radio one now with marian finucane. After his press conference.

andrewdeerpark

JonathanAnon wrote: »

On radio one now with marian finucane. After his press conference.

I must ring the producers as I have as much rights to the national airways as he does except I do not have the shillings or the connections...

mickdw

Re: Article 48

AARRRGH wrote: »

Is that true? If it is it's a very powerful reason why we should all vote no.

This is the important point for me too. If true, it means all the power is taken from the people.
Im voting NO until someone can clarify this in a clear manner.
For example, if a new european constitution is required in a few years, will they need to put it to us?

Daragh101

Livster wrote: »

Hello Everyone

I was so glad to learn today in the Wall Street Journal of the long awaited return of Declan Ganley. This great Irish Man will once again represent the views of the majority of Irish people who voted No in Lisbon I. We the people declared that we would not ratify the treaty and now 15 months later we find ourselves being asked to vote again. It is a disgrace, i no longer trust the politicans of my great country Ireland to protect my treasured Irish Constitution which was written nearly a hundred years ago by the Irish people for the Irish people.

Eamon Gilmore (leader of Labour political party) went on the national news and told me and every other Irish person that the “People have made a decision … the decision that has been made by the Irish people has got to be respected by everybody, got to be respected by the Taoiseach, the government, by the other member states, by the political leadership in Brussels. They [the Irish people] make up their own minds. They are the ultimate Jury in this and it is a great strength of our democracy. I don’t think there is any question of this treaty being put a second time to the people … At this stage there is no point re-running the campaign. The fact of the matter is that a decision has now been made. The Lisbon Treaty is dead".

This is just one of the men who is now campaigning for a Yes vote. Like most of our politicans he has broken his promise. It is only we the people of Ireland who can be trusted to ensure that are Irish Constitution is not eroded and is protected for our future and that of our nations children and the generations to come.

Same Treaty, Same Answer, VOTE NO! Policiticans i implore you to LISTEN , HEAR US and RESPECT our democratice voice which is soverign!

he doesnt sound irish!:rolleyes:

ei.sdraob

Daragh101 wrote: »

he doesnt sound irish!:rolleyes:

he pays less tax here than if he stayed in his native country

Daragh101

ei.sdraob wrote: »

he pays less tax here than if he stayed in his native country

true!

puffdragon

The plain fact is we are too afraid to vote no, well Im not but apparently half the country is because they cannot see the real reason why Fiana Fail and other political parties throughout europe are so commited to Lisbon. If your job was at risk you would argue to keep it wouldent you , well it's as simple as that except every penny they earn is coming out of your pocket.

And I guarentee that tomorrow you will wake up and do this,- S F A - , thats right unlike Declan Ganley (whom I do not support but would defend his right to speak) who does give us alternatives and some hope for the future other than being subscripted into a european army, or forced to work for 1 euro per hour. You see it’s the context, and this is what Fiana Fail are exploiting to the full,"The Fear Factor"

Since the 2008 vote, Ireland has been plunged into a deep recession. The budget deficit has exploded to previously unimaginable proportions and the country is relying on an implicit guarantee from the European Central Bank for the borrowing necessary to sustain the economy.

Unemployment has soared. Wages have fallen and property prices have collapsed. The world is now a much more threatening and uncertain place. Fear will play a much greater part in this campaign than it did last year.

This changed context applies to Ireland’s anxious EU partners as much as Ireland.

Nobody can say for sure what the reaction will be if there is a second No vote, but a couple of things are clear: the other EU governments want this treaty implemented and, if Ireland votes No, the treaty is dead.

Next year, a Conservative government is almost certain to take office in London, and it will not agree to Lisbon if it is not already in place.

Other EU governments are likely to press ahead with the Lisbon-type reforms, especially under existing provisions for ‘enhanced co-operation’, where a group of countries can pursue closer integration, such as with the euro, for instance.

If there is a No vote, the EU will not cease to function; it has managed to function without the Lisbon Treaty these last 13months.But a fresh round of soul-searching about the EU’s legitimacy would be likely - to be followed, as usual, by a fresh round of institutional tinkering.

Whatever blame is going around for that will come our way.

prinz

puffdragon wrote: »

.
And I guarentee that tomorrow you will wake up and do this,- S F A - , thats right unlike Declan Ganley (whom I do not support but would defend his right to speak) who does give us alternatives and some hope for the future other than being subscripted into a european army, or forced to work for 1 euro per hour..

A European conscripted army, forced labour.......? ....

Ganley doesn't care that, given that his companies are major suppliers to militaries around the world, and the man has made his money by exploiting cheap labour wherever he could find it. Pull the other one.

JonathanAnon

As I said many times before, I dont understand why the Irish people are even being asked about this. We elect our officials to make decisions about things which are have much more of an affect on our daily lives than the Lisbon Treaty will... i.e. the budget, an bord snip/ commission on taxation, decisions on stamp duty and property tax, decision on health system and justice.... All of which will be put into legislation without being voted on by the Irish public.

prinz

JonathanAnon wrote: »

As I said many times before, I dont understand why the Irish people are even being asked about this. We elect our officials to make decisions about things which are have much more of an affect on our daily lives than the Lisbon Treaty will... i.e. the budget, an bord snip/ commission on taxation, decisions on stamp duty and property tax, decision on health system and justice.... All of which will be put into legislation without being voted on by the Irish public.

Thank Ray Crotty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crotty_v._An_Taoiseach

ei.sdraob

puffdragon wrote: »

The plain fact is we are too afraid to vote no

NO campaigner scaremongering in the morning

:rolleyes:

next

puffdragon

I wish I was intelligent enough to script a message that could be construed as "scaremongering" however I am only repeating what I hear from close friends, family, and neighbours and how I am being made to feel myself,
I really dont like the idea that Fiana Fail's main thrust is that I dont have a choice and my back is against the wall on this issue when I clearly know better. "Outskirts of Europe" " Left Behind" "We owe Europe for years of support" has anyone really listened to the rhetoric here if that was a Sinn Fein member saying that(and no I dont support Sinn Fein either) we would certainly accuse him or her of "scaremongering" these guys are desperate and desperate people dont make good leaders.

ei.sdraob

puffdragon wrote: »

I wish I was intelligent enough to script a message that could be construed as "scaremongering" however I am only repeating what I hear from close friends, family, and neighbours and how I am being made to feel myself,
I really dont like the idea that Fiana Fail's main thrust is that I dont have a choice and my back is against the wall on this issue when I clearly know better. "Outskirts of Europe" " Left Behind" "We owe Europe for years of support" has anyone really listened to the rhetoric here if that was a Sinn Fein member saying that(and no I dont support Sinn Fein either) we would certainly accuse him or her of "scaremongering" these guys are desperate and desperate people dont make good leaders.

well then please stop moaning and become a responsible citizen and educate yourself on the issues and the treaty

there certainly is no lack of impartial information

the referendum commissions site for one (with downloadable brochures)

http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/


oh and please I hate FF as much as you do, but voting in the hope to hurt FF on Lisbon is downright wrong and you will only hurt all the people of Ireland, while these ministers will collect their gold plated pensions either way

prinz

puffdragon wrote: »

I really dont like the idea that Fiana Fail's main thrust...... these guys are desperate and desperate people dont make good leaders.

So it's all about Fianna Fáil now? What about FG, Labour, the Green Party, IBEC, the ICAI, various MNC's, farmers, ICTU....... and the list goes on, they're all desperate are they?

Daragh101

prinz wrote: »

So it's all about Fianna Fáil now? What about FG, Labour, the Green Party, IBEC, the ICAI, various MNC's, farmers, ICTU....... and the list goes on, they're all desperate are they?

whos in gov though!!..atm anyway!

ei.sdraob

Daragh101 wrote: »

whos in gov though!!..atm anyway!

FF and Greens

cant wait to see the back of both

FF for screwing up

Greens for not having the balls to do the right thing and force an election


but once again thats irrelevant to Lisbon

prinz

Daragh101 wrote: »

whos in gov though!!..atm anyway!

That's irrelevant.. If for some reason FF were against Lisbon, would you support it then?

ballsymchugh

sherdydan wrote: »

ohh for f**k sake can the SOB not just accept defeat

hence the second referendum..

Mario007

Daragh101 wrote: »

whos in gov though!!..atm anyway!

that has nothing to do with it. FG are the biggest spenders when it comes down to the campaign from the yes side and kenny himself said he wants to lead the campaign...

puffdragon

Just followed a link to an old picture of an anti Iraq protest, a poster in the background reads "Im not your ATM" !!

puffdragon

prinz wrote: »

So it's all about Fianna Fáil now? What about FG, Labour, the Green Party, IBEC, the ICAI, various MNC's, farmers, ICTU....... and the list goes on, they're all desperate are they?

In short YES

prinz

puffdragon wrote: »

In short YES

Like to explain why?

Daragh101

Mario007 wrote: »

that has nothing to do with it. FG are the biggest spenders when it comes down to the campaign from the yes side and kenny himself said he wants to lead the campaign...

i no ya but people would question ff before fg because they are in gov!

Daragh101

prinz wrote: »

That's irrelevant.. If for some reason FF were against Lisbon, would you support it then?

i do support it !!