I'm voting 'no' for one reason only...

My name is URL

sdonn wrote: »

I really do believe the only reason to vote yes is because if we don't we'll be ousted "to the margins" as An Taoiseach put it. And whole that scares me, and makes me want to vote yes, I object and am saddened that we are in effect being forced or pressurised to vote yes for this reason.

What better reason to vote No? I seriously am regarding this very point to be the main reason for me to vote against the treaty, regardless of anything it actually contains.

Personally I'm prepared to ride out the storm of any fallout that a No vote brings, it's better than been bent over by the EU and forced to cooperate through fear of reprisal.

FutureTaoiseach

sdonn wrote:

I really do believe the only reason to vote yes is because if we don't we'll be ousted "to the margins" as An Taoiseach put it. And whole that scares me, and makes me want to vote yes, I object and am saddened that we are in effect being forced or pressurised to vote yes for this reason.

Better than to be on the side of the people of Europe than the elites of Europe who are ignoring the no votes in France and Holland. There are 2 Europes: the people's Europe, and the Europe of the elites.

hurleronditch

I voted yes first time round, but i will vote no this time, purely as i dont agree with the grounds on which we are being asked to repeat the referendum.

If only the government were as quick to repeat a vote on the last thing that the public got wrong....

ei.sdraob

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

Better than to be on the side of the people of Europe than the elites of Europe who are ignoring the no votes in France and Holland. There are 2 Europes: the people's Europe, and the Europe of the elites.

who exactly are these "elites" you refer to

hurleronditch wrote: »

I voted yes first time round, but i will vote no this time, purely as i dont agree with the grounds on which we are being asked to repeat the referendum.

If only the government were as quick to repeat a vote on the last thing that the public got wrong....

perhaps you have short memory but we had double referendums in this country before

hurleronditch

ei.sdraob wrote: »

who exactly are these "elites" you refer to




perhaps you have short memory but we had double referendums in this country before

There may be precedence but that still doesnt make it right.

P. Breathnach

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

... There are 2 Europes: the people's Europe, and the Europe of the elites.

Bollocks. That's just another version of Joe Higgins's "ordinary people" mantra. Basic simplistic Marxism: them and us.

hipster2009

hurleronditch wrote: »

I voted yes first time round, but i will vote no this time, purely as i dont agree with the grounds on which we are being asked to repeat the referendum.

If only the government were as quick to repeat a vote on the last thing that the public got wrong....

So the divorce referendum should never have been repeated???????

posters from neo-catholic organisations of a minimum wage of 1.84 should be enough to convince you to vote yes!
Or maybe you think they should be running the country?

hurleronditch

hipster2009 wrote: »

So the divorce referendum should never have been repeated???????

posters from neo-catholic organisations of a minimum wage of 1.84 should be enough to convince you to vote yes!
Or maybe you think they should be running the country?

Minimum wage is a moot point, labour is a commodity which is there to be traded by the workforce. They could threaten a minumum wage of 1 cent but id still ignore that.

I dont think they should be running the country, but this is a referendum, not a general election, so voting no will not change our government.

To be honest i was about 14 when the divorce referundum was repeated, so im not sure of the details but ill have a flick around online and educate myself. Anyways im voting no because i dont feel i should be asked again. thats all.

ei.sdraob

hurleronditch wrote: »

Minimum wage is a moot point, labour is a commodity which is there to be traded by the workforce. They could threaten a minumum wage of 1 cent but id still ignore that.

I dont think they should be running the country, but this is a referendum, not a general election, so voting no will not change our government.

To be honest i was about 14 when the divorce referundum was repeated, so im not sure of the details but ill have a flick around online and educate myself. Anyways im voting no because i dont feel i should be asked again. thats all.

let me get this straight you dont want to participate in the democratic process as set out by our constitution

voting NO does not lead to a status quo

if you are unaware of the issues then read up on them

if you dont know still after reading up then abstain


do you have a problem with the irish constitution and political system?

patrickthomas

ei.sdraob wrote: »

let me get this straight you dont want to participate in the democratic process as set out by our constitution

voting NO does not lead to a status quo

if you are unaware of the issues then read up on them

if you dont know still after reading up then abstain


do you have a problem with the irish constitution and political system?

Can you give me one reason how a no vote is going to effect my life?

ei.sdraob

patrickthomas wrote: »

Can you give me one reason how a no vote is going to effect my life?

you will continue to pay high energy bills every months and continue to be under threat from Russia turning of the gas taps (like they did in recent years freezing our fellow Europeans)


your elected representatives would not be able to do their job in europe, and they and the people would appear to be useless (the people voting in Pro Lisbon MEPs and then voting yet again against Lisbon) and undecided


this means confusion and uncertainty, as a business owner i can tell you that confusion and uncertainty is bad (As clearly illustrated by last years stock market crashes) when it comes to business and employement

Keewee6

ei.sdraob wrote: »

and your answer is? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

seems you are incapable of forming anything longer than a sentence, what age are you?

blah blah blah:rolleyes:

ei.sdraob

Keewee6 wrote: »

blah blah blah:rolleyes:

if you are incapable of engaging in debate then why do you post here?

i am opening a ticket in help desk about your behavior

/

Keewee6

im voting no because idont like being asked twice

ei.sdraob

Keewee6 wrote: »

im voting no because idont like being asked twice

apparently you don't have a problem with repeating yourself multiple times

and not engaging in debate

We

IrishGooner83 wrote: »

Read the documentation. Make the effort yourself and become informed. A No vote would have hugely negative reprecussions for Ireland on the international stage.

I'd love to see some evidence or hear your rationale for this claim, or even some details as to what might happen.. I'm hearing this stuff a lot lately, what are effectively threats being thrown around in order to scare people into voting yes..

ei.sdraob

We wrote: »

I'd love to see some evidence or hear your rationale for this claim, or even some details as to what might happen.. I'm hearing this stuff a lot lately, what are effectively threats being thrown around in order to scare people into voting yes..

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62072498&postcount=132

We

ei.sdraob wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62072498&postcount=132

Ok so, thats the details.. now for the rationale and evidence - you may aswell have said aliens would invade in that post

ei.sdraob

We wrote: »

Ok so, thats the details.. now for the rationale and evidence - you may aswell have said aliens would invade in that post

evidence?

Europeans shiver as Russia cuts gas shipments

EU calls crisis talks as Russian gas flow dwindles

My name is URL

ei.sdraob wrote: »

evidence?

Europeans shiver as Russia cuts gas shipments

EU calls crisis talks as Russian gas flow dwindles

That wasn't an action taken against Ireland though, why are you even using that as a bullet point for voting Yes?

Irish-Russian relations are actually quite good.. The Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic was in fact the first country to recognise the Independence of Ireland in 1916.. not that it has any bearing on the treaty, but neither does your point

ei.sdraob

My name is URL wrote: »

That wasn't an action taken against Ireland though, why are you even using that as a bullet point for voting Yes?

Irish-Russian relations are actually quite good.. The Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic was in fact the first country to recognise the Independence of Ireland in 1916.. not that it has any bearing on the treaty, but neither does your point

Ireland is a the very end of all the European pipelines with gas coming from Russia

every time they turn their taps of that means we pay more for gas, and gas is used to quite a lot in this country for electricity generation, the monitor in front of you is now partially running on russian gas

the electricity and gas bills you receive are directly tied to Russian whims

think about it

My name is URL

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Ireland is a the very end of all the European pipelines with gas coming from Russia

every time they turn their taps of that means we pay more for gas, and gas is used to quite a lot in this country for electricity generation, the monitor in front of you is now partially running on russian gas

the electricity and gas bills you receive are directly tied to Russian whims

think about it

Well hypothetically, if something was to cause Russia to cut gas supply to Europe, they also operate many LNG Tankers which can supply vast amounts of gas directly to other nations. There's no reason to believe that they will cut supply again, and certainly no reason to believe that Ireland will be 'left in the cold' if people vote No =p

nesf

Keewee6 wrote: »

blah blah blah:rolleyes:

This is a discussion forum. You've already been asked to contribute more than just one liners, as such you're getting a temporary ban for ignoring the instruction.

StealthRolex

A lot of people here seem to think that by reading and understanding the treaty, consolidated treaties, government and EU sponsored summaries will lead to people understanding that there is no harm in this and will vote Yes.

Likewise there are a lot of people here who think the conclusion to reading and understanding treaty will realise what is going on and vote No.

A lot of Yes supporters are of the opinion that if you still can't understand you should not vote.

A lot of No supporters are of the opinion that if you still can't understand you should vote No.

No matter. I'm sure those of you who have read it and understand it know what this is about.

Political Union.

We began this exercise with an Economic union of sorts back in the 70's.

Now it has become a Political Union.

With a President, High Representatitive for foreign affairs, European wide descriptions of human rights enshrined in law, rules for the development of security and defense mechanisms. European rules on taxation and representation. Need I go on?
Fine there are some rules we can sign up to or opt out from but at the political level most are irrelevant.

The EU Constitution was an obvious move towards political union
This Treaty replaces it and given that the only radical difference between the proposed EU constitution and this treaty is the ease with which it was read it is reasonably fair to surmise that this is a description of European Political Union, with designs on a future Federal State system couched in the form of a treaty so that the ordinary citizen does not need to be asked and makes it difficult for all but a select few to realize.

With the previous systems unanimity was required. Why? So that any decisions were in everyone's best interests. The number of members now makes that difficult so the system wants to move to a more "democratic" system. In the long term this will mean that decisions will me made for the greater good some of which will not be in everyone's best interests.
We are being asked to decide to authorise this.

It's been a long slow march but we're nearly there. So close in fact that anything that derails it now will be disastrous. It will be most disastrous for the one who says "STOP!" according to some those who want this treaty ratified.
Bull, it will be disastrous for those who want it ratified.

It's a big ask, have got the wherewithal to say Yes this is what we want. A European Political Union. A Union that goes beyond Economics and has the power to interfere in what used to be Soverign issues.

Or do you want to say No, we want a different Europe.

You have the right to decide. You have the right to choose.

Use your vote.

meglome

StealthRolex wrote: »

A lot of people here seem to think that by reading and understanding the treaty, consolidated treaties, government and EU sponsored summaries will lead to people understanding that there is no harm in this and will vote Yes.

Likewise there are a lot of people here who think the conclusion to reading and understanding treaty will realise what is going on and vote No.

A lot of Yes supporters are of the opinion that if you still can't understand you should not vote.

A lot of No supporters are of the opinion that if you still can't understand you should vote No.

No matter. I'm sure those of you who have read it and understand it know what this is about.

Political Union.

We began this exercise with an Economic union of sorts back in the 70's.

Now it has become a Political Union.

With a President, High Representatitive for foreign affairs, European wide descriptions of human rights enshrined in law, rules for the development of security and defense mechanisms. European rules on taxation and representation. Need I go on?
Fine there are some rules we can sign up to or opt out from but at the political level most are irrelevant.

The EU Constitution was an obvious move towards political union
This Treaty replaces it and given that the only radical difference between the proposed EU constitution and this treaty is the ease with which it was read it is reasonably fair to surmise that this is a description of European Political Union, with designs on a future Federal State system couched in the form of a treaty so that the ordinary citizen does not need to be asked and makes it difficult for all but a select few to realize.

With the previous systems unanimity was required. Why? So that any decisions were in everyone's best interests. The number of members now makes that difficult so the system wants to move to a more "democratic" system. In the long term this will mean that decisions will me made for the greater good some of which will not be in everyone's best interests.
We are being asked to decide to authorise this.

It's been a long slow march but we're nearly there. So close in fact that anything that derails it now will be disastrous. It will be most disastrous for the one who says "STOP!" according to some those who want this treaty ratified.
Bull, it will be disastrous for those who want it ratified.

It's a big ask, have got the wherewithal to say Yes this is what we want. A European Political Union. A Union that goes beyond Economics and has the power to interfere in what used to be Soverign issues.

Or do you want to say No, we want a different Europe.

You have the right to decide. You have the right to choose.

Use your vote.

You do realise this isn't a blog right?

hurleronditch wrote: »

I voted yes first time round, but i will vote no this time, purely as i dont agree with the grounds on which we are being asked to repeat the referendum.

If only the government were as quick to repeat a vote on the last thing that the public got wrong....

You must have been campaigning for years to have the right of the government to run more than one referendum changed? right?

I've heard so much ****ing bitching about this and cannot find anyone who has campaigned to have it changed.

StealthRolex

meglome wrote: »

You do realise this isn't a blog right?

Position statement - I'm voting No because I object to Political Union.

If it's about Economics make it an economic treaty. BTW this is a political board and I felt like just chucking out some political rhetoric. Put me on your Ignore list if it bothers you.

So, if you think this is not about Political Union and that a Yes vote is not for political union leading to the United States of Europe with one person Obama or Clinton can call to mobilize Europe in a crisis feel free to discuss.

There probably isn't one reason within this particular treaty. There might be one reason within the amended treaties but is one reason enough to vote No?

That all depends on where you stand and what you stand for.

My reason is taken from the Big Picture - what the sum of the parts becomes. Taking individual bits and pieces out is giving me a headache.
From that perspective there's an overwhelming number of reasons to vote No and three or four to vote Yes.

On balance I'll vote No for the greater good and common interest. Not everyone will be happy but that's democracy. QMV in action.

havingfun247

Why ****ing bother at all? It's going to happen just get on the train or keep the hell out of the way (as in move to america!)

StealthRolex

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Ireland is a the very end of all the European pipelines with gas coming from Russia

every time they turn their taps of that means we pay more for gas, and gas is used to quite a lot in this country for electricity generation, the monitor in front of you is now partially running on russian gas

the electricity and gas bills you receive are directly tied to Russian whims

think about it

I think the last price quoted for gas the price was dropping. Could be wrong there but if we really don't want to be as dependent on Russia for gas maybe we should consider going nuclear.
I'm sure if we pass the Treaty the EU will be able to provide no end of money for nuclear power stations to be build all over Ireland.
It would be great for their Green, and Environmental aspirations. We could become the power-house of Europe. Miles away from anywhere that would cause damage in the event of a nuclear accident. Well, we might damage Britain a bit if we go bang but who cares - they're all Eurosceptics anyway.

meglome

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Agreed. €200bn seems to be conveniently rounded, don't you think? It sounds like a guesstimate, to me.

I'd agree with guesstimate if guestimate means totally made up and without basis in any reality.

I can't find anything that even remotely comes close to this figure of €200 billion nor can I find out how they reached this figure.

patrickthomas

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you will continue to pay high energy bills every months and continue to be under threat from Russia turning of the gas taps (like they did in recent years freezing our fellow Europeans)

A yes or no vote is not going to effect the price or quantity of fossil fuel.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

your elected representatives would not be able to do their job in europe, and they and the people would appear to be useless (the people voting in Pro Lisbon MEPs and then voting yet again against Lisbon) and undecided

I and the majority of the electorate have zero confidence in our elected representatives to do anything but line their pockets. If a no vote trevents them from doing their job in Europe, pray tell me how on earth have they managed to do their job so far? answer...see above

ei.sdraob wrote: »

this means confusion and uncertainty, as a business owner i can tell you that confusion and uncertainty is bad (As clearly illustrated by last years stock market crashes) when it comes to business and employement

I also am a business owner and the confusion and uncertainty in the market has nothing to do with the results of a vote.

What does matter about the vote is whether we as the Irish people are listened to by our leaders, we are not.

All of your points are made in order to win an argument, you have chosen a side and you will defend it until the end, very noble.

The results of this vote will decide nothing to do with our standing in Europe, it will have everything to do with the unrest felt by a majority of people in this small country about our politicians and increasingly about the EU itself.

I have moved between European countries all my life working and the one thing I know is that we do not have a whole lot here compared to our European neighbours. We have the right to be wrong, and that is one of many things that is denied us by our representatives both here and in the Brussels.

I am quite sure you will vote yes and you too have the right to be wrong but do not forget if the Lisbon treaty is passed that we will never be asked another time to undo it! The EU has become the envy of many places in the world without the Lisbon treaty, and many as I feel this is a wrong direction that the EU is taking. Many people around the EU also feel that this is a step too far and gives way too much centralised power to Brussels.