European Commission Barroso removes the main argument of Yes campaigners

tonycascarino

European Commission President José Manuel Barroso today removed one of the main arguments of Yes campaigners by saying that there will be no discrimination against Irish people if there is a second No vote on the Lisbon Treaty. In answer to a question from Sinn Féin MEP Bairbre de Brún in Brussels today as to whether the Commission will treat Ireland differently to other EU member states if Irish people again reject the Lisbon Treaty on 2 October, President Barroso said: “There will be no discrimination against Irish people if there is a No vote. You will not hear from me any threat to Ireland.”

Speaking after the meeting, MEP Bairbre de Brún said that “the Yes campaign should now stop scare-mongering about a No vote affecting Ireland's status and influence in the EU. Ireland's place in the EU is secure”.

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/17300

I guess that's that then. The Yes campaigns main argument is gone and it has been proven to be nothing more than good ol' scaremongering.

PopeBuckfastXVI

Hardly a main argument, especially when no-one is worried about the impartial commission, which drafts legislation, but instead worried about negotiations on the council which consists of the other governments.

I've never considered this to be an argument for a 'yes' however, just a consideration which should be made when voting 'no'.

meglome

Speaking after the meeting, MEP Bairbre de Brún said that “the Yes campaign should now stop scare-mongering about a No vote affecting Ireland's status and influence in the EU. Ireland's place in the EU is secure”.

You know it never stops being funny that a bunch of scaremongerers don't like even the suggestion it's being done right back at them. Coming from the same Sinn Fein that campaigned for Ireland to not even join the EU and has campaigned for a No ever since makes it even funnier.

tonycascarino

One of the main arguments of the Yes side has gone completely out the window & they can no longer try scare people into voting yes with such lies ie. that Ireland will be discriminated against if it votes No again.

PopeBuckfastXVI

tonycascarino wrote: »

One of the main arguments of the Yes side has gone completely out the window & they can no longer try scare people into voting yes with such lies ie. that Ireland will be discriminated against if it votes No again.

Didn't bother reading my post then eh? Just repeat, repeat, repeat...

tonycascarino

meglome wrote: »

You know it never stops being funny that a bunch of scaremongers don't like even the suggestion it's being done right back at them. Coming from the same Sinn Fein that campaigned for Ireland to not even join the EU and has campaigned for a No ever since makes it even funnier.

I find it even funnier that the Yes side have been caught out.

meglome

tonycascarino wrote: »

One of the main arguments of the Yes side has gone completely out the window & they can no longer try scare people into voting yes with such lies ie. that Ireland will be discriminated against if it votes No again.

I don't think it's one of the main arguments either, not for me anyway.

PopeBuckfastXVI

Out of curiosity, tony, would you change your vote to 'yes' if Mr. Barroso had come out and said he would discriminate against Ireland if we voted no?

tonycascarino

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Out of curiosity, tony, would you change your vote to 'yes' if Mr. Barroso had come out and said he would discriminate against Ireland if we voted no?

Curiosity killed the cat.;)

is_that_so

tonycascarino wrote: »

One of the main arguments of the Yes side has gone completely out the window & they can no longer try scare people into voting yes with such lies ie. that Ireland will be discriminated against if it votes No again.

If a voter ,on the balance of the evidence, determines their vote is correct who am I to argue. If on the other hand it's a spurious notion like this, disenfranchising them for life is not a sufficient punishment and really suggests a lack of free will or reasoning power. As others have posted there are many many well-argued positions to take on Lisbon but this is not one of them.

PopeBuckfastXVI

tonycascarino wrote: »

Curiosity killed the cat.;)

I'll take that as a no...

tonycascarino

is_that_so wrote: »

If a voter ,on the balance of the evidence, determines their vote is correct who am I to argue. If on the other hand it's a spurious notion like this, disenfranchising them for life is not a sufficient punishment and really suggests a lack of free will or reasoning power. As others have posted there are many many well-argued positions to take on Lisbon but this is not one of them.

Try tell that to the Yes side :

''Ireland has had one serious attempt at committing suicide on this issue… "Happily, we survived... and we are back for another go. If we do it again, we probable deserve everything bad that ever happens to us." - Scaremongering from Fine Gael’s director of organisation, Frank Flannery - 22nd of July 2009

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/rejecting-lisbon-will-lose-us-credibility-warns-expert-97112.html

''... one view is that the way will have been opened for an end to our membership of the European Union, probably resulting in membership of the European Economic Area, to which Norway and Iceland belong" - Brendan Halligan, Campaign Co-ordinator Director of Ireland for Europe and former MEP - 09/07/2009

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2009/0710/1224250386451.html


"I believe the first victim of an eventual no would be the Irish. They have benefitted more than others," – French Politician, Bernard Kouchner
http://euobserver.com/9/26299/?rk=1

"Ireland will be in the ''dog house'' if it says no for a second time.'' - Viscount Etienne Davignon, chairman of the Bilderberg group
http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2008/oct/05/ireland-set-for-lisbon-dog-house/


I'm glad all these lies from the Yes side have been put to bed by President Barroso in the Article above.

PopeBuckfastXVI

tonycascarino wrote: »

''Ireland has had one serious attempt at committing suicide on this issue… "Happily, we survived... and we are back for another go. If we do it again, we probable deserve everything bad that ever happens to us." - Scaremongering from Fine Gael’s director of organisation, Frank Flannery - 22nd of July 2009

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/rejecting-lisbon-will-lose-us-credibility-warns-expert-97112.html

''... one view is that the way will have been opened for an end to our membership of the European Union, probably resulting in membership of the European Economic Area, to which Norway and Iceland belong" - Brendan Halligan, Campaign Co-ordinator Director of Ireland for Europe and former MEP - 09/07/2009

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2009/0710/1224250386451.html


"I believe the first victim of an eventual no would be the Irish. They have benefitted more than others," – French Politician, Bernard Kouchner
http://euobserver.com/9/26299/?rk=1

"Ireland will be in the ''dog house'' if it says no for a second time.'' - Viscount Etienne Davignon, chairman of the Bilderberg group
http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2008/oct/05/ireland-set-for-lisbon-dog-house/


I'm glad all these lies from the Yes side have been put to bed by President Barroso with this line :

“There will be no discrimination against Irish people if there is a No vote. You will not hear from me any threat to Ireland.”

Did you read my post above:

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Hardly a main argument, especially when no-one is worried about the impartial commission, which drafts legislation, but instead worried about negotiations on the council which consists of the other governments.

I've never considered this to be an argument for a 'yes' however, just a consideration which should be made when voting 'no'.

It's the first reply in your thread, I'm sure you can't have missed it.

What do you think of it?

ei.sdraob

@tonycascarino


can you please tell us what are

* the job of the commission
* the job of the council


within EU

please do go ahead oh and PopeBuckfastXVI raised interesting questions, are you not interesting in debating? No? then why start a thread

PopeBuckfastXVI

ei.sdraob wrote: »

@tonycascarino


can you please tell us what are

* the job of the commission
* the job of the council


within EU

please do go ahead oh and PopeBuckfastXVI raised interesting questions, are you not interesting in debating? No? then why start a thread

It's a curious thing about parrots, they can repeat what they hear, but rarely can you engage them in discussion...

is_that_so

tonycascarino wrote: »

''Ireland has had one serious attempt at committing suicide on this issue… "Happily, we survived... and we are back for another go. If we do it again, we probable deserve everything bad that ever happens to us." - Scaremongering from Fine Gael’s director of organisation, Frank Flannery - 22nd of July 2009

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/rejecting-lisbon-will-lose-us-credibility-warns-expert-97112.html

''... one view is that the way will have been opened for an end to our membership of the European Union, probably resulting in membership of the European Economic Area, to which Norway and Iceland belong" - Brendan Halligan, Campaign Co-ordinator Director of Ireland for Europe and former MEP - 09/07/2009

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2009/0710/1224250386451.html


"I believe the first victim of an eventual no would be the Irish. They have benefitted more than others," – French Politician, Bernard Kouchner
http://euobserver.com/9/26299/?rk=1

"Ireland will be in the ''dog house'' if it says no for a second time.'' - Viscount Etienne Davignon, chairman of the Bilderberg group
http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2008/oct/05/ireland-set-for-lisbon-dog-house/


I'm glad all these lies from the Yes side have been put to bed by President Barroso with this line :

“There will be no discrimination against Irish people if there is a No vote. You will not hear from me any threat to Ireland.”

Aside from the lack of argument put forward here these links really don't prove anything. The argument such as it is, also seems to be based on the need to emphasise that the Yes side also tell lies.

If I choose to leave my job and I am advised by any number of experts that I could end up unemployed for a long time, that's just an assessment of possible consequences and something I will use to determine my decision. It's certainly not scaremongering and is no more going to prevent me from evaluating the situation than a long list of quotes will influence me for Lisbon.

Your perception quite obviously is that these links reflect that emotive word scaremongering whereas I would see them as a reflection on possible consequences. In the end I'll still look at the issues and vote accordingly, which is really what we should all be doing.

Dinner

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

It's a curious thing about parrots, they can repeat what they hear, but rarely can you engage them in discussion...

To be honest, I'm facinated to see him post. His usual MO is to thank people who include any variant of the phrase 'NO means NO'.

The next step is to engage in a debate...

sceptre

I wouldn't have considered that anywhere near one of the main arguments in favour but than again, as I've pointed out before, I'm making my decision on the actual treaty.

ei.sdraob

i would have been happy if the commission were to disappear completely or reduced as per original Lisbon

the whole commissioner "issue" is a terrible joke

these commissioners are nothing more than useless highly paid bureaucrat's who are not even "ours"

but sure "the people of Ireland have spoken" and all our tax money would continue to pay these people with or without lisbon

bleh sorry for ranting

more reading here for anyone interested since the OP is incapable of engaging in debate > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

The Commission operates in the method of cabinet government, with 27 Commissioners. There is one Commissioner per member state, though Commissioners are bound to represent the interests of the EU as a whole rather than their home state. One of the 27 is the Commission President (currently José Manuel Durão Barroso) appointed by the European Council

My name is URL

sceptre wrote: »

I wouldn't have considered that anywhere near one of the main arguments in favour but than again, as I've pointed out before, I'm making my decision on the actual treaty.

Certainly a main argument for those undecided, or those that do not fully understand the treaty.

You cannot deny the fact that the fear of alienation is enough to cause some people to vote Yes.. and before you throw up the old "well they should read the treaty" argument, of course they should, and they would if this was a Utopian paradise, but it isn't. And every election and every referendum has a proportion of people that vote with their hearts rather than their heads.

PopeBuckfastXVI

Main argument or no, the point here is that the commission cannot display favouritism, or otherwise.

Negotiations where Ireland might lose goodwill are with the Council, i.e. the other EU governments who helped us draft the Lisbon treaty.

Mary-Lou's little question is nice and all, but utterly pointless.

sceptre

My name is URL wrote: »

Certainly a main argument for those undecided, or those that do not fully understand the treaty.

You cannot deny the fact that the fear of alienation is enough to cause some people to vote Yes.. and before you throw up the old "well they should read the treaty" argument, of course they should, and they would if this was a Utopian paradise, but it isn't. And every election and every referendum has a proportion of people that vote with their hearts rather than their heads.

Ah, I don't deny it at all. Unfortunately. As I've said before, it makes me quite sad that we have a population so unwilling to educate itself, despite receiving plenty of education (and that applies in a general way as much as it does about this specific proposal).

dresden8

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

, but instead worried about negotiations on the council which consists of the other governments.

With any luck they'll steal Cowen's lunch money and flush his head down the jacks.

Worth a No vote just for that.

thebman

Doesn't mean the other countries won't form a closer union without us though.

I'd rather be as closely integrated to Europe as possible TBH.

Just my opinion though.

FutureTaoiseach

thebman wrote: »

Doesn't mean the other countries won't form a closer union without us though.

I'd rather be as closely integrated to Europe as possible TBH.

Just my opinion though.

I find this talk that a 'two-speed Europe' strange given it already exists with respect to the Eurozone and Schengen. It's not realistic in an EU of 27, with differing histories and cultures, to strait-jacket everyone into going along with everything in terms of degrees of integration.

PopeBuckfastXVI

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

I find this talk that a 'two-speed Europe' strange given it already exists with respect to the Eurozone and Schengen. It's not realistic in an EU of 27, with differing histories and cultures, to strait-jacket everyone into going along with everything in terms of degrees of integration.

Indeed, and we seem to be firmly declaring ourselves out out out, or at least we will be if we vote no.

Nice of you to acknowledge it.

My name is URL

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Indeed, and we seem to be firmly declaring ourselves out out out, or at least we will be if we vote no.

Nice of you to acknowledge it.

Really.. so what you're basically implying is that fear is a driving force to vote Yes?

Fear... of an entity that you support so faithfully! Do you see the irony?

Maybe Machiavelli was right when he said that it's better to be feared than loved :rolleyes:

PopeBuckfastXVI

My name is URL wrote: »

Really.. so what you're basically implying is that fear is a driving force to vote Yes?

Fear... of an entity that you support so faithfully! Do you see the irony?

Maybe Machiavelli was right when he said that it's better to be feared than loved :rolleyes:

No.

Did you read the post I was replying to?

FT postulated a 2 tier Europe with Ireland in the second, less integrated, less central tier.

It's an honesty you rarely get from 'No' advocates.

Daftendirekt

tonycascarino wrote: »

I guess that's that then. The Yes campaigns main argument is gone and it has been proven to be nothing more than good ol' scaremongering.

Great. Now if you'll just take the time to refute the real arguments for a Yes vote, you'll have a few more No voters on your side.

My name is URL

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

No.

Did you read the post I was replying to?

FT postulated a 2 tier Europe with Ireland in the second, less integrated, less central tier.

It's an honesty you rarely get from 'No' advocates.

Yeah, but you said "or at least we will be if we vote no", I assumed you were serious with that.

I would like to know how many people are afraid of the EU deciding to kick Ireland out of the Union, and how many are voting based on that fear.

It's more philosophical than political I guess, but is it ok to champion a force that instills a fear of repercussions in those who oppose it? I'm sure it's easier to, that doesn't make it right though, imo

Martin 2

In answer to a question from Sinn Féin MEP Bairbre de Brún in Brussels today as to whether the Commission will treat Ireland differently to other EU member states if Irish people again reject the Lisbon Treaty on 2 October, President Barroso said: “There will be no discrimination against Irish people if there is a No vote. You will not hear from me any threat to Ireland.”

tonycascarino wrote: »

I guess that's that then. The Yes campaigns main argument is gone and it has been proven to be nothing more than good ol' scaremongering.

I have to admit I’ve mentioned isolation before but I was referring to self-imposed isolation rather than some active EU policy to isolate Ireland from the other 26 countries, the latter is contrary to the spirit and the letter of EU policy. I was thinking of Ireland being perceived as being on the margins of the EU after a No vote and the effect that would have on investment and especially the multinational sector. To paraphrase an Irish multinational executive, why are we are cutting ourselves adrift from the rest of the EU when the one of the main reasons for multinationals being here is that we are part of the EU.