Cannabis should be legalized in Ireland To pull Our country out of ression

def

Herbal Deity wrote: »

And (and this is hugely generalising), he probably does nothing productive with his life...

The problem with cannabis is not that it's physically harmful, it's that when someone has cannabis readily available, it's so much easier to get stoned and to mong out in front of the TV or on your laptop instead of doing something productive. In the evening, once you get stoned, there's no going back to reality until the next morning (and even then, with daily, heavy smoking, many people report being less focused in general when they're not high).

I know some people claim to be the opposite, i.e. more focused and productive on cannabis but I think this is a minority of users.

Don't get me wrong, I'm fully pro-legalisation and support cannabis smoking in moderation, it's just I acknowledge the problems it can cause.

I don't really buy into the schizophrenia link too much. I think it can definitely be a factor for some people, but I think it's pushed way too much by the anti drugs lobby who make strong claims based on weak evidence. I don't think anyone's been converted to an anti-weed stance because of the supposed correlation with psychotic disorders, I think people assert a position of being anti-weed and then make claims like this to back up their assertion.

check out my previous posts ,the effects of cannabis are completely strain dependent ,

to generalise and say cannabis causes creativity in some and lazyness(couch lock)in others is not very logical , there are huge diffrence in one cannabis strains cannabinoid profile ,this is very important ,the schizophrenia link is bogus ,very high thc strains with little or no cbd can produce schizophrenia-like symptoms ,or agrivate an existing mental illness ,but when a strain has high levels of cbd relitive to thc then it may even relive the some symtoms of some mental illness ,prohibition is not good for paranoia neither is high levels of thc....

oconcuc

def wrote: »

forget about VAT on regulated ganja , there is a massive black hole sucking money out of the economy ,and it goes to international banks / or bigger dealers in a different country(the vast majority is imported) ,

lets take a look real quick just how much (serious under estimates) - since 20ish % (supposedly 21%)of the irish population have/do smoke this herb (892,000 people-100%)

we'll assume that 5% smoke daily and spend 50e every 2 days

I would disagree with the €350 per week estimate. That is a large quantity for an individual to consume.

def wrote: »

25% smoke weekly and spend 50e

I would not think weekly use rates are that high, but as we have no comprehensive data, it is possible that it is a reasonable estimate. But I have reservations.

def wrote: »

all in all thats 995,695,000 (extreme under estimate)

I would think that a generous over-estimate. This is a small country, and €1 billion would be a noticeable presence in the economy. You might cut that down a little and have a more accurate estimate. The alcohol industry is extremely successful in this economy, and overall spending on that is only just over €5 billion (including tax revenues) last year.

To speculate that cannabis expenditure could compete with alcohol in any way as close to what you have estimated would be inaccurate and wishful.

cian1810

oconcuc wrote: »

I would disagree with the €350 per week estimate. That is a large quantity for an individual to consume.

I agree, it seems a bit high.

oconcuc wrote: »

I would think that a generous over-estimate. This is a small country, and €1 billion would be a noticeable presence in the economy. You might cut that down a little and have a more accurate estimate. The alcohol industry is extremely successful in this economy, and overall spending on that is only just over €5 billion (including tax revenues) last year.

To speculate that cannabis expenditure could compete with alcohol in any way as close to what you have estimated would be inaccurate and wishful.

A quick Google search gives me a an estimate of the value of Cannabis based on drug-hauls as approx 100kg = €1million. So €1billion is 100 tons of cannabis.

And last year the Garda confiscated just under 1 ton, saying that they think they get about 10%... so by these numbers the Garda estimate ~10tons per year == €100million. The same article estimates total illegal drug use in Ireland at ~€2 billion. [see http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2009/may/03/gardai-reclassify-cannabis-as-six-times-more-expen/] So overall the figures you use for cannabis I'd say are too high, but there is a huge drain of money into the drugs black market.

John_Mc

I know for a fact that it's not illegal in Mexico and Portugal as they've decriminilised all drugs. It is illegal in the Netherlands, but it's tolerated over there.

droidus

You would also have to calculate the amount of money spent in enforcing prohibition and add that to the total, which could double or even triple the amount if you take police/customs/courts time into account.

Soapabr does not contain opium btw. Its the lowest grade of hash, made by scraping the vats used to make the resin and mixing the remnants with camel ****, plastic and whatever happens to be lying around. It would make no sense to mix a more valuable drug into it.

350 a week is an extremely high level of use. That's over an ounce of quality weed a week. Only the heaviest of users with very high tolerances would be consuming that much. Id say the average user uses less per month.

oconcuc

def wrote: »

forget about VAT on regulated ganja , there is a massive black hole sucking money out of the economy ,and it goes to international banks / or bigger dealers in a different country(the vast majority is imported) ,

lets take a look real quick just how much (serious under estimates) - since 20ish % (supposedly 21%)of the irish population have/do smoke this herb (892,000 people-100%)

we'll assume that 5% smoke daily and spend 50e every 2 days
25% smoke weekly and spend 50e
and 20% spend 50e a year
the remaining 50 % are too old and have givin up or scab from friends and family or buy of an irish grower either way they dont pay "criminals"(gangs who have international sources)

so the 5% (44,600) pay 406,975,000!
the 25% (223,000) pay 579,800,000!
and the 20%(178,400) pay 8,920,000

all in all thats 995,695,000 (extreme under estimate) , how many coffey shops ,and cannabis cultivators could that employ? not to mention give the garad a raise and reduce the working hours,cut the cost of the budget(cannabis is 50% of all drug busts)

also money saved by the wider society by :....
-seperating tabacco and cannabis(smoking cannabis prevents lung cancer?)(google the exact phrase look for donald tashkins study)
-cannabis can cure cancer(google)
-reduce criminal damage that occurs as a result of alienation from wider society
-health problems due to impurities like opium and soil in hash , silica,glass and krack cocaine in the herbal form
-reduce mental health problems( strains with very high levels of thc sacrifice cbd to achieve this),cbd is the anti psycotic cannabinoid ,in a open market people could choose what ever they wanted ,hash contains on average more cbd and cbn to thc ,producing a groggy sleepy stone , i assume high cbn and nicotine is responsible for most green /white puking episodes
-not to forget the youth who would become fruitful members of society had they not strayed outside the box and became a black market entrepenure and strayed down that path all the way to an overcrowed cell



all in all its at least the entire garda budget saved and kept in the economy

can any body add to savings or shoot a hole in it?

cian1810 wrote: »

I agree, it seems a bit high.


A quick Google search gives me a an estimate of the value of Cannabis based on drug-hauls as approx 100kg = €1million. So €1billion is 100 tons of cannabis.

And last year the Garda confiscated just under 1 ton, saying that they think they get about 10%... so by these numbers the Garda estimate ~10tons per year == €100million. The same article estimates total illegal drug use in Ireland at ~€2 billion. [see http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2009/may/03/gardai-reclassify-cannabis-as-six-times-more-expen/] So overall the figures you use for cannabis I'd say are too high, but there is a huge drain of money into the drugs black market.

Garda estimates are not trustworthy, from their own valuations (which they inflate to give the impression of increasing success rates) or on quantities (there can be no accurate assessment on the size of the illicit drug market, as no significant studies have as yet been completed in this jurisdiction).
Assume that if the cannabis market (being the largest shareholder) is worth half of all illicit drug expenditure, and giving a modest value of €1.25-1.5 billion, then an estimate of €600-750 million would appear reasonable. In saying that, if legalised, values would decrease significantly and come somewhere in-line with Dutch cannabis values.

oconcuc

John_Mc wrote: »

I know for a fact that it's not illegal in Mexico and Portugal as they've decriminilised all drugs. It is illegal in the Netherlands, but it's tolerated over there.

It is still illegal in Portugal, Mexico and the Netherlands. They have all decriminalised cannabis, not legalised. The Mexican government is considering fully legalising, the Portugese are not.
The Dutch still have the most liberal approach in their decriminalised status, with non-prosecution for medium size retail of cannabis. No other jurisdiction has such a liberal approach to the sale of cannabis, yet.

oconcuc

The Spanish would have, in practise, the 2nd most liberal approach after the Netherlands. They allow for cultivation, which can still be prosecuted in Portugal, and for larger quantities not prosecuted than Portugal.

The Portugese model is more progressive in its holistic approach to illicit drugs.

def

oconcuc wrote: »

I would disagree with the €350 per week estimate. That is a large quantity for an individual to consume.



sorry but i think you missread 50e every 2 days is 175 euro a week ,

and to take into account its very social as in the 50e a week/every 2 days users would represtent many people "chipping in" aswell as ,

in ireland 50 is a very small quantity,in my experience lasting hours maximum 2 days (lets say a generous 4 grams) between two or three people who have a high tollerance,

and in the normal run of things there will be 1 or 2 people with jobs and 1 or 2 "scabs" who rarely buy but regularly consume ,

you cannot use gardai estimates i agree completely ,but i do feel that the vast majority of users are daily and weekly users at least half of the total

in ireland there are two main choices for the youth sports or cannabis ,this is going on my few years on this earth ,by the time 6th year in school(2006) came along about 80ish percent smoked on at least a bi weekly basis

a lot were daily and to many were goin for joints in between classes before school during break and after school this was maybe 10% of the smoking total,there was a dealer for at least every 20 people ,

that is my basis for estimates of use regularity and i would consider my area(a nice enough area in dublin) "dealers paridise" but in my travels and conversations every where seems more or less like this, in schools far more students smoke cannabis than tabacco

but this is all opinion and personal experiance and very unreliable statistics
with questionable methods of obtaining (if a teacher is at the top of the class ,only cheeky kids will say yes i smoked it, )

oconcuc

def wrote: »

oconcuc wrote: »

I would disagree with the €350 per week estimate. That is a large quantity for an individual to consume.

sorry but i think you missread 50e every 2 days is 175 euro a week ,

and to take into account its very social as in the 50e a week/every 2 days users would represtent many people "chipping in" aswell as ,

in ireland 50 is a very small quantity,in my experience lasting hours maximum 2 days (lets say a generous 4 grams) between two or three people who have a high tollerance,

and in the normal run of things there will be 1 or 2 people with jobs and 1 or 2 "scabs" who rarely buy but regularly consume ,

you cannot use gardai estimates i agree completely ,but i do feel that the vast majority of users are daily and weekly users at least half of the total

in ireland there are two main choices for the youth sports or cannabis ,this is going on my few years on this earth ,by the time 6th year in school(2006) came along about 80ish percent smoked on at least a bi weekly basis

a lot were daily and to many were goin for joints in between classes before school during break and after school this was maybe 10% of the smoking total,there was a dealer for at least every 20 people ,

that is my basis for estimates of use regularity and i would consider my area(a nice enough area in dublin) "dealers paridise" but in my travels and conversations every where seems more or less like this, in schools far more students smoke cannabis than tabacco

but this is all opinion and personal experiance and very unreliable statistics
with questionable methods of obtaining (if a teacher is at the top of the class ,only cheeky kids will say yes i smoked it, )

You see your chipping-in grouping within that 5% would more accurately be categorised under a broader percentage of the cannabis using population. You cannot include groups within groups when taking a broad overview of a general population.

€175 worth of cannabis of any quality is still a significant amount for an individual to be using, I think that degree of use would occupy a much smaller category that the 5%.

Anyway that is irrelevant and this is descending in to minor statistical disputes.

What studies indicate is that use rates drop off the older people get, as in people admitted they smoked when younger but grew out of it. So not demeaning your experiences, secondary schools are generally not used in these studies for a number of reasons, one of which you outlined above.

def

oconcuc wrote: »

def wrote: »

You see your chipping-in grouping within that 5% would more accurately be categorised under a broader percentage of the cannabis using population. You cannot include groups within groups when taking a broad overview of a general population.

€175 worth of cannabis of any quality is still a significant amount for an individual to be using, I think that degree of use would occupy a much smaller category that the 5%.

Anyway that is irrelevant and this is descending in to minor statistical disputes.

What studies indicate is that use rates drop off the older people get, as in people admitted they smoked when younger but grew out of it. So not demeaning your experiences, secondary schools are generally not used in these studies for a number of reasons, one of which you outlined above.

i do see where your coming from but seen as the usage rate drops of after the mid twenties ,i feel the school going users represent a significant portion of users ,

when i say 5% spend 50e ,they are suppling weekly, monthly and yearly spenders who cannot afford to buy as regularly as they would like ,also this would represent groups chipping in ,as most school goers do,

i feel that the percentage of daily SMOKERS would be far greater than 5% of total users ,closer to 25% but share the payment to some degree ,if theres nothing to do kids/young men buy and smoke cannabis as its readily avaiable from more than one "dealer" freind ,or school contact on the hour any hour , "ma can i have 5euro for the shop,..heres 4 " between 5/6 people thats a quater of hash ,enough for a day or two,

when people get older and get jobs ,sure you could go to the movies or.... buy better quality cannabis and sit in a field or shed with a group of friends, and until these people move out of there parents they have plenty of money to spend ,on doing what they have done all their lives with little or no negetive effects ,"if it aint broke dont fix it " frame of mind

by the time the average user is 18 they can" handle" 175euros (14grams) of accepable quality cannabis herb or hash , and between 4 people that'll be maybe 4 or 5 days max ,unless the owner gets cranky and dosent let the scabs roundin which case it might last a bit longer

i dont think you smoke cannabis , or have given up some time ago , people who are "out of the loop" really do not have a good ,appreciation of the market lay out ,if you do not smoke cannabis it is normally assumed you are a liability and dropped as a social contact , children fear this ,more than adults , as a result only the obvious cannidates for potential druggy are spotted the lad with all the hot rock burn marks in the trakkies and the lad with the long hair,

either way if cannabis was regulated properly a massive portion of the users(minors) would be dropped .the black market would feel the loss as the big boys cut there losses an give up ,very quickly there would be a large reduction in users (10 years) ,

but the devil makes use of idle hands , if responsible use was promoted ,and in the name of seperating the market for cannabis from extacy etc (other kids drugs) i feel it wouldnt be a bad idea to have the age limit at 16 ,just a reduced quantity and strength allowance like in austria the drinking age for beer is 16 and as a result you have no violent drunken gangs of youths (on the streets), but then again try putting that past grainne kenny

if the cannabis herb ,hash and oils were produced in ireland by many ,small scale growers and sellers , then it would most definately prop up the economy ,to the extent we could have 0% unemployment ,,

there would need to be a orginisation to handle permits for growing an selling (a recreational drug group ,inc alcohol ,tabacco etc would be ideal ) this should include rehab and get all money from all drugs sales ,and permits ,so they can pay workers ,provide rehab and courses in growing ,going to schools and teaching kids ,handle comlaints ,inspect pubs cafes and discos ,every thing , and the money left goes staight to the gardai , this would be ideal but then again alcohol lobbyists and grannie kenny would pull stokes or have you shot ,and i wonder how the gun totin gangs would feel (complaints would not come in writing)

esspecially if mushrooms(very safe,in moderation and if taken responsibly )and extasy (also very safe if its pure mdma), and this would completely distroy more or less every gang in the countrys main sources of income , supply heroin addicts with cannabis instead of methadone(a much more effective ,safer substitute for eliminating cravings ...strong herb)

this would save incredable amounts of money that gets launderd out of the economy

also with a choices like that there would be no want for other drugs
alcohol ,cannabis ,psyclobe cubensis(magic mushys),and MDMA somthing for every one ,and every occation ,would you like to talk and dance an fight , chill and eat maybe a bit of painting, feel god ,and cry because your so thankfull for life, or go and dance and tell strangers you love them(and mean it!)

it all happens every week end,and no amount of gardai or drug warriors and prisons can stop it ,end of story a 40 year long one, why not save the money,and send people like grannie kenny to sensitivity training where she can learn about the wants(drugs) and needs(respect regardless of whether you like ganja or americas next top model) of others ,

no demand =no supply , the anti-drug groups do all the advertising needed

def

[QUOTE=oconcuc;64222767
I would think that a generous over-estimate. This is a small country, and €1 billion would be a noticeable presence in the economy. You might cut that down a little and have a more accurate estimate. The alcohol industry is extremely successful in this economy, and overall spending on that is only just over €5 billion (including tax revenues) last year.

To speculate that cannabis expenditure could compete with alcohol in any way as close to what you have estimated would be inaccurate and wishful.[/QUOTE]


"Central Statistics Office show that expenditure on alcohol in Ireland is 8.6 per cent of total personal expenditure, which has declined from 10.8 per cent in the mid-1990s."

http://www.finfacts.ie/Private/bestprice/alcoholdrinkconsumptionpriceseurope.htm


considering this id say wat 80% of us drink ,drinking every weekend is not really abnormal in our society and if..8.6% of our TOTAL personal expenditure ,then could cannabis be 2% "off the books" expenditure?

it would be handy if it stayed "on the book" and in the country ,could be 3 billion thats brobably who knows? with the lot heroin ,cocaine ,etc could be 7 billion with the prices irish people pay! How many people say wat thats a rip off in a shop or restraunt? and imagine if the owners on krack and has a glock ,and a empty bottle...

id say a safe guess would be at least 3.5-4 billion ,but the thing is if you have a properly regulated market in drugs you would have the pharmaceutical companys out doing research creating "safer "versions of synthetic cocaine that wouldnt have the negetive effects ,and patenting that irish companys could get to it first ,with much more pridictable effects same goes for all the others ecstasy(pretty popular) ,speed (getting popular)mushrooms are to cheap to grow same for cannabis, wouldnt work for medical cannabis though ,this whole curing cancer ,and removing moles isnt a load a wishfull thinking , smoking a load a pipes and pure weed probably doesnt cure cancer but it could.What probably does cure cancer(most forms of cancers ,moles also warts and apparantly all sorts of horrible cancer theres a load of links on there...)

http://drugwarrant.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1198


this would save more money and save lives! chemo ... get the f u c * away from me ,cannabis would be an incredibly CHEAP way to cure cancer ,couldnt kill you at all...,no matter how much pure cannabinoid paste you smoke eat or rub all over yourself (as moses supposedly did in his tent before talking to god), did you see that link earlier ,yerman rick simpson is now on the run in europe ....for curing a load a cancer for free all his 80 year old buddys on the hash oil workin farms cancer free? we could get rid of the retirement age , that would create money ,through less money spent on cancer free up beds ,etc and all the creativity and will to live etc ..that could increase productivity , remeber the true reason were broke is were producing nuthing much ,and paid to much for houses ,so we have all this bleedin money trapped in those houses and it cant flow around -if you follow me ,hemp -more the end of a stigmitisation of cannabis sativa L and encouragement ,would be very good for our econemy ,we could be exporting and useing (and keeping that money in the country the same way the money for cannabis sativa, indicas , and sativa L bags and hats and so on) things like concreate(which would lock up carbon out of the atmosphere)as well as bio degradeable plastics which would help clean the bleedin streets! paints ,,lots of DEISEL ,just need a bit a wood alcohol an little bit of other stuff,,less bio degradeable plastics ,for when you want that ,the best rope and twine ,cloths , whole armadas of sail ship completely hemp set up a massive trade route (no collenies)we would surely earn a few carbon credits what a fun just like back when things lasted longer sailin round it would employ a lot a people,hemp press board is some strong stuff all the cellulose ,paper ..we could stop planting all these dead nordic death holes make ye sick,

lots a money saved no reason not to humans have 99.9% probably been useing drugs since before farming ,this whole kill the druggie stuff in very recent really only a few years ,a little hysteria when something unexpected came from globalisation ,differint cultures drugs.. also witch hunting (women who healed with herbs...) and so on ,


its only a matter of time before some one with a bit of cop on and sway informs the very prejudice 1/3rd part of the populus (with the loud voices ) ,with the prohibition of drugs and plants and so on it can never get better than gangs and full prisons but with regulation (the use of words ,control ,psycosis prohibition does not give or acheive control in any way,and when a woman hits that time of the month she suffers hormone induced psycosis when are stoned thats psycosis ,who studied latin not me any way but i know you shouldnt confuse it with psychopathy check it out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psycosis


)) any way regulation can give control ,and make mountains of hard earned cash that people are going to spend on drugs regardless of who tells them what,but unforturatly they get branded sub human and sent to camps that'll teach them, hey just like what happened with when we were all told "no bein catholic ,no speakin irish " it can only cause trouble

def

sorry about all the spelling mistakes and so on ,ive never been a very good speller , good thing i finnished school in 2006 ,i surely would have been beatin and or raped if i had come a few years earlier ,

but if you can punch a hole in my view please do , my opinion is capable of change as new facts come to light ,

LiNgWiStIkZ

You guys are forgetting the Czech Republic - they've decriminalised all drugs up to a certain amount!

weiland79

Does anyone on here for one second think that anyone in power in this country would have the balls to legalise weed.

O'Coonassa

Herbal Deity wrote: »

"no right whatsoever"?

The UN is not a dictatorship.

And in fact, with countries such as Portugal and Mexico decriminalizing possession of small quantities of drugs, the UN is actually supporting decriminalization policies.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/24/un-backs-drug-decriminali_n_220013.html

Decriminalising and legalising are two entirely different things. This thread by its title is calling for legalisation. I was just pointing out that it can't ever happen so long as international law prohibits it.

Is Ireland a dictatorship? Of course not, but the fact remains that Cannabis is against the law, and you have no right whatsoever to be in possession.

LiNgWiStIkZ

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Of course not, but the fact remains that Cannabis is against the law, and you have no right whatsoever to be in possession.

People have EVERY right to be consuming what they want to consume. It should not be up to the government to put sanctions on this.

O'Coonassa

LiNgWiStIkZ wrote: »

People have EVERY right to be consuming what they want to consume. It should not be up to the government to put sanctions on this.

When your liberty to do something is proscribed in law then you do not have the right to do it. Simple as that really. I'm not at all saying that's how it should be, just that that's how it is. In a democracy the majority decide what gets proscribed and what doesn't. If you believe that Ireland is a democracy and you're a democrat then you have to go along with it.

oconcuc

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Decriminalising and legalising are two entirely different things. This thread by its title is calling for legalisation. I was just pointing out that it can't ever happen so long as international law prohibits it.

Is Ireland a dictatorship? Of course not, but the fact remains that Cannabis is against the law, and you have no right whatsoever to be in possession.

As I have already stated,

"International Law is not binding on this State. Our Constitutional framework only provides for binding European Communities Law.

Ireland was an early signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights (we signed in 1953), yet when the convention, and it provisions were cited in court cases such as Norris v Attorney General [1985], the Supreme Court rejected any contention that an international agreement was binding in Irish Law.

It is not within the remit of any international organisation to overrule any measure a state determines to be responsible social policy. Once fundamental rights as enunciated under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights are respected.

The European Union can insist on certain economic guidelines, they have no authority to dictate a state's laws on drug prohibition.

Any other multilateral agreements outside of economic agreements hold only persuasive, guiding authority. They are agreements, not law.

Don't be naive, this government tends to do what it wants, and the courts will back them once Constitutionally permissible.

It would NEVER be contended that legalising cannabis could be unconstitutional."

The UN has no authority or resources to enforce any anti-narcotic agreements.

oconcuc

O'Coonassa wrote: »

When your liberty to do something is proscribed in law then you do not have the right to do it. Simple as that really. I'm not at all saying that's how it should be, just that that's how it is. In a democracy the majority decide what gets proscribed and what doesn't. If you believe that Ireland is a democracy and you're a democrat then you have to go along with it.

In any jurisdiction where a plebiscite (true democracy) has been used to decide the legal status of cannabis, decriminalisation has resulted.

We have never been asked if we want cannabis decriminalised or legalised. We were never asked if we felt it necessary to criminalise it.

True concepts of liberty, as enunciated by John Locke, which the drafters of our Constitution used as part-inspiration for the text, make it clear that once others are not being harmed, no state apparatus should interfere with the exercise of your personal rights.

This reasoning has been affirmed regularly by the foremost philosophical, legal and political minds to this day.

See HLA Hart and Robert Nozick.

We have a long tradition in this county of respecting rights derived from this philosophical perspective.

Herbal Deity

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Decriminalising and legalising are two entirely different things. This thread by its title is calling for legalisation. I was just pointing out that it can't ever happen so long as international law prohibits it.

They're not entirely different at all. Decriminalised drugs are effectively legal in all but name.

O'Coonassa wrote: »

When your liberty to do something is proscribed in law then you do not have the right to do it. Simple as that really. I'm not at all saying that's how it should be, just that that's how it is. In a democracy the majority decide what gets proscribed and what doesn't. If you believe that Ireland is a democracy and you're a democrat then you have to go along with it.

For a start, the majority never decided to make drugs illegal in the first place. But anyway, democracy isn't black and white majority rule. The Lisbon disaster highlighted just why a direct democratic system doesn't work.

There are some things should simply be legal for the sake of protecting people's right to do what they like with their lives. For example, homosexuality should never be illegal, even if it were put to a referendum and the public voted to illegalise it.

oconcuc

Herbal Deity wrote: »

There are some things should simply be legal for the sake of protecting people's right to do what they like with their lives. For example, homosexuality should never be illegal, even if it were put to a referendum and the public voted to illegalise it.

You raise a very important question here Herbal Deity, this is the difficulty with the Irish Constitution and source of much debate. Other countries have either on the one hand, a very difficult Constitution to Amend (US Constitution) where the rights protected can never really be removed by a vote (you would never be able to amass such support in such a divided nation), or on the other hand a Constitution that prohibits the removal or amendment of certain rights protections, (Germany).

In this jurisdiction, we can in theory amend any provision. Which is worrying as there is no predicting what direction the rabid, Joe Duffy listening population will take us.

Even though there were some suspicious voting irregularities when the Nazi's came to power, it is generally understood the majority of Germans were happy with the laws introduced that removed and restricted the rights of unsavory minorities.

def

def wrote: »

when i say 5% spend 50e ,they are suppling weekly, monthly and yearly spenders who cannot afford to buy as regularly as they would like ,also this would represent groups chipping in ,as most school goers do,

The problem I see with this is the focus on a certain "type" of smokers or even an economic class. The simple fact is that you will get people from all backgrounds with many incomes smoking on a weekly basis. What you're fixating on seems to be the student or unemployed. I was earning 42k a year at the end of my serious stoner period, and the increases in salary of that period of 5-6 years, didn't increase the amount that I purchased for consumption.

i feel that the percentage of daily SMOKERS would be far greater than 5% of total users ,closer to 25% but share the payment to some degree ,if theres nothing to do kids/young men buy and smoke cannabis as its readily avaiable from more than one "dealer" freind ,or school contact on the hour any hour , "ma can i have 5euro for the shop,..heres 4 " between 5/6 people thats a quater of hash ,enough for a day or two,

when people get older and get jobs ,sure you could go to the movies or.... buy better quality cannabis and sit in a field or shed with a group of friends, and until these people move out of there parents they have plenty of money to spend ,on doing what they have done all their lives with little or no negetive effects ,"if it aint broke dont fix it " frame of mind

Its pie in the sky since there's no stats to back it up. I can point out that in my circle of friends more than half still get stoned at least 3-4 times a month, and they're all in their late twenties with stable jobs and decent social lives. But thats just my circle, and other stoners will be different.

Its impossible to generalize as to what smokers do or don't do. Some will lead highly productive lives, while others will become couch potatoes. From my experience, cannabis or such, just encourages the type of behavior they had before they started. i.e. for me, it made me work harder during the week, and do nothing during the weekends. (because that was what I was doing anyway before I started smoking heavily)

by the time the average user is 18 they can" handle" 175euros (14grams) of accepable quality cannabis herb or hash , and between 4 people that'll be maybe 4 or 5 days max ,unless the owner gets cranky and dosent let the scabs roundin which case it might last a bit longer

By the time most stoners are comfortable with smoking they will have a circle of friends they smoke with, all of who contribute in one form or another. I don't really get your whole 18 point though. I started smoking at 14, but was never able to afford any substantial quantities, never mind having a decent place to smoke the stuff until I went off to college.

As for the prices you're quoting, I'm wondering where you're situated, and the quality/type of cannabis/grass you're getting. Normally, if we know we're ,looking for some heavy sessions we'll buy an ounce to cover 2 weeks. More than enough. Fine.. if you want to white out every night/day smoke more, but whats the point in that?

i dont think you smoke cannabis , or have given up some time ago , people who are "out of the loop" really do not have a good ,appreciation of the market lay out ,if you do not smoke cannabis it is normally assumed you are a liability and dropped as a social contact , children fear this ,more than adults , as a result only the obvious cannidates for potential druggy are spotted the lad with all the hot rock burn marks in the trakkies and the lad with the long hair,

Again, I have to disagree. Any stoner worth his salt will be experienced enough the rough structures assigned to the market. TBH, in the last 15 years it hasn't changed much, except for the periodical dryspots when there's no grass, and you have to switch to "diesel", but then 2 weeks later you can go back to the usual.... And its worth noting where I lived in Cork, was a traditionally upper middle class area, with a high percentage of regular smokers.

either way if cannabis was regulated properly a massive portion of the users(minors) would be dropped .the black market would feel the loss as the big boys cut there losses an give up ,very quickly there would be a large reduction in users (10 years) ,

I can't really see this reduction. People smoke cannabis because they like (whatever) feeling they get from it. So anyone that enjoys it will continue to buy it. Its the same with chocolate, or any other luxury product.

but the devil makes use of idle hands , if responsible use was promoted ,and in the name of seperating the market for cannabis from extacy etc (other kids drugs) i feel it wouldnt be a bad idea to have the age limit at 16 ,just a reduced quantity and strength allowance like in austria the drinking age for beer is 16 and as a result you have no violent drunken gangs of youths (on the streets), but then again try putting that past grainne kenny

Stoners aren't all lovely, adorable users. The problem is that people bring their problems with them from before they start smoking. So if you're an aggressive little **** before you start smoking, its likely you'll continue to be an aggressive little **** after a few joints. You'll just be a little more creative as to how to take out your anger on the world.

Personally, I'd stick with the same laws for alcohol, except to restrict smoking to inside the home. No outdoor smoking. On the spot Fines to those caught outside smoking. The only real responsible way to manage cannabis is to encourage smoking in a secure environment, since that relaxes the user, and decreases the chances of paranoia or other negative feelings kicking in. And yes, I'm speaking from experience. Its extremely rare for me to smoke or to go anywhere while stoned. Although Avatar was worth seeing in the cinema baked.

if the cannabis herb ,hash and oils were produced in ireland by many ,small scale growers and sellers , then it would most definately prop up the economy ,to the extent we could have 0% unemployment ,,

Unlikely.. since that would require a demand in the marketplace to match such supply. Which I don't believe there is. But it would give some enterprising individuals new materials to play with.

also with a choices like that there would be no want for other drugs
alcohol ,cannabis ,psyclobe cubensis(magic mushys),and MDMA somthing for every one ,and every occation ,would you like to talk and dance an fight , chill and eat maybe a bit of painting, feel god ,and cry because your so thankfull for life, or go and dance and tell strangers you love them(and mean it!)

People will take what they want. We have alcohol here, but we take drugs. If we had some drugs, some people would want different drugs. Its the problem with the message that society/capitalism throws out. If you can pay for it, you're entitled to have anything you want. Even if you can't pay for it, you're entitled, and can find the money somewhere.

it all happens every week end,and no amount of gardai or drug warriors and prisons can stop it ,end of story a 40 year long one, why not save the money,and send people like grannie kenny to sensitivity training where she can learn about the wants(drugs) and needs(respect regardless of whether you like ganja or americas next top model) of others ,

no demand =no supply , the anti-drug groups do all the advertising needed

Agreed in part. Although, I feel it is impossible to remove supply without bringing in draconian measures, which would never be allowed. Oh, I do believe drug abuse could be stopped in Ireland, but it would mean seriously reducing people's rights, and rather harsh punishments. Which won't happen.

So time to deal with the problem by facing it head on. No more sticking our heads in the sand, and wishing the problem away. That hasn't worked in any country to date, and there's no reason to believe it will work here. Having cannabis illegal is not working as a deterrent, rather it acts as an attractor. Time to try something different.

def

weiland79 wrote: »

Does anyone on here for one second think that anyone in power in this country would have the balls to legalise weed.

power? we all have the power ,its not about "power" its all about the balls ,
the will power ,the only thing to ever improve human society is a couple of usually young people with passion and ability to stand up and fight with words or arms against what they perceive as injust ,or just plain stupid

i have been trying to justify my persecution since i was 13(seven years) ,luckily for me it was in a positive social setting ,ive got big brass balls and i refuse to take up arms , esspecially against the gardai who are uninformed and misled ,i am at the moment im not in ireland ,when i get back ill get things moving ,if no one else will ,

legalise cannabis ireland is a bit of a joke ,protests are a good start but..

what you want is a rake load of
-doctors(screaming about medical benifits),
- priests (the supposeded moral leaders ,explaining how god must have created it with all the other seed baring herbs and thus all christians have the bible given right to use it if they so choose)
-economists (explaining how it could definately save/prop up the economy,with saving across the board)
-and the gardai( who in theory ,must help because they have the duty to "seek out ,expose and oppose " all unconstitional ,discriminatory and immoral laws)

prohibition is
-unconstitutional because in denys the right to freedom of religion (many religions use it)
-discriminatory because if one man /woman has the right to use it for worship and it harms no one(not even the user) then its not very sensible to say some cant use it for "fun" or what ever
-and if one person can use alcohol and tabacco ,why cant some one use a safer recreational substance?
-and immoral because taking away someones liberty or money because of a life choice they make (you do or should have the right to make your own mistakes so long as you harm no other) is not a very moral thing to do or approve of

and of course 2 million signatures would help as well ,in a survey by irishhealth.ie it was revealed 52% approved of legalisation/regulation /de-gang-inating, and only 37% disapproved ,while 11% didnt know or care

as for the fools runnin the place i have an idea to sort that out
check out my thread "a proposal to end the election madness"

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055813425

please let me know what you think

def

O'Coonassa wrote: »

. I was just pointing out that it can't ever happen so long as international law prohibits it.

my ar*e , what are they going to do sent us an angry letter ,what about international human rights ,what about "illegal " wars , their a toothless bunch a fools ,theyd do more for the movment by opposing it ,you could use the UNs own research to shut them up

def

O'Coonassa wrote: »

In a democracy the majority decide what gets proscribed and what doesn't. If you believe that Ireland is a democracy and you're a democrat then you have to go along with it.

read my post with the bit about 52%(estimated) of the populus aprove

oconcuc

def wrote: »

prohibition is
-unconstitutional because in denys the right to freedom of religion (many religions use it)

The free practise of Religion protection in the Constitution has a "subject to public order and morality" clause. That is interpreted as meaning any religious observances which can objectively be seen as undermining parliamentary approved social governance, are inconsistent with public order.

Similarly, if your religious beliefs allowed you to torture animals, this would conflict with objectively reasonable law prohibiting animal cruelty.

The courts are not health experts, and no case has of yet been brought by a legitimate religous group, backing up their claims with valid medical evidence, claiming their Article 44 rights are being impugned by the Misuse of Drugs Acts.

If the courts did, and there is a good chance they would in the right circumstances, find in favor of allowing a religous observance that included cannabis smoke, only those registered in that religion would be exempt from prosecution. Such a move would not deal with any of the real issues around cannabis prohibition.

O'Coonassa

def wrote: »

my ar*e , what are they going to do sent us an angry letter ,what about international human rights ,what about "illegal " wars , their a toothless bunch a fools ,theyd do more for the movment by opposing it ,you could use the UNs own research to shut them up

So far as I know it is not properly legal anywhere on the face of the planet

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_is_Marijuana_fully_legal

Also so far as I'm aware the reason for this is out of fear of sanctions. Personally I'd love to see the farmers in the third world get the opportunity to export such a high value cash crop but sadly I don't think that's going to happen.

As for what is being said about the Constitution does the fact that Ireland is signatory to the various international narcotics conventions mean that the constitution has already been ignored on the issue?

I'm sure that if there was a reeferendum then it would be decriminalised but so far as I'm aware there is no democratic mechanism where such a poll could be forced, say for example by obtaining a signatures of a certain percentage of the electorate as in Switzerland etc. I therefore think that we do not live in a proper democracy and on account of that feel free to ignore the law.

def

mine (serious period which happend to coincide with my highest ever salery)was 32k and i definiately kranked up afternoon/weekend toking and trying things like buying cannaidian herb over the internet


i do think the demand is there( but were all just guessing theres no way to know for sure)




not at all, im confident that if the markets were seperated (through full regulation),and prohibition wasnt ruining the respect for the gardai and govenrment in general ,and there was some what of a choice of drugs you could eliminate demand for others , but even if ireland legalised heroin (unnesissary) we could do more to fight the taliban than any amount of hunter killer drones ,by hitting them where it hurts ...ther wallets,and it wouldnt be any where near as damaging to the user since there would be quality control and this could be said for what i would feel is the next most violent/dangerous market ,cocaine , help fight "terrorism"(violent extremisim) in south america , either way help the "lesser world"



and advertiser ,hey are you a rebelious teen ? why not do some of the illegal drugs that are freely available ?
show them how effective prohibition is

but as i said all we can do is make educated guesses ,form opinions with bad statistics and apply personal experience... no one can be "wrong" saying anything would improve or get worse , if i said i feel making cannabis "legal" would reduce use in minors by making it boring and not rebellious any more alone (with the legal age at 16), could you prove me wrong? could i prove myself right?no were all just guessing, in ceartain places (cambodia)cannabis is considered an old people "drug" and pig food, and the young prefer speed and heroin

def

prohibition ,public order? morality? it breeds disrespect for the law and loud old women from very young ages ,it is rotting our society at the roots you can tell because the leaves are wilting, and flowers are so few and small


hey second hand smoke isnt the same as reading somethings entrails, in anyway , if wine is part of mass why cant oil be part of a mass ,discrimination based in prejudice,(prejudie -to form an opinion with out considering all if any of the relevent information ,all negitive health reasons for supporting prohibition are invalid unless you factor in the possible methods for reduceing these ,through regulation ..mental illness for example ,seems to be completely due to the lack of labels(with cannabinoid profiles) and a want for qualitiy product( bud with no seeds ,glass etc) and a lack of choice in lower thc higher cbd products ,



fear of persecution ,lack of information in the useing public, few lads standing around shouting in dublin city center ,handing out a4 sheets ,which will also be in headshops , start the snow ball rollin

then any other law prohibiting any other person would be discriminatory which the aressting gardai is supposed to oppose, and seek out and expose , what sort of responsibilities do judges have?


this a response to klaz in post 384 ,