Cannabis should be legalized in Ireland To pull Our country out of ression

masteroftherealm

Not in Ireland no. I have recieved excellent specialist care while living abroad but never in Ireland. Nor any offer of such. (PM me if you want more info, its an angry issue for me so I wont rant here going OT)

Kurtosis

I would feel it would be great if cannabis or treatments derived from it, which would be effective in treating certain conditions, could be available here in Ireland. I think however that the pro-legalisation side (with respect to recreational use) tend to hijack this cause and hop on the bandwagon, even though the two final aims are both distinct.

masteroftherealm

Yep medial cannabis activists are painted with the same brush as anyone else wanting to legalise even though they are campaining for something totally and utterly different.

ordinarywoman

penguin88 wrote: »

I notice that one of the reasons often used to support the case for legalising cannabis is its potential uses in the treatment of pain, cancer, arthritis and other illnesses. It really intrigues me how such evidence is going to further the case for legalisation.

If medical uses do get approved here, the only result will be declassification of cannabis from Schedule 1 controlled drug to one of the lower schedules. The only way this will result in increased availability is if you happen to be a person suffering from one of the indicated diseases. These are serious diseases requiring medical diagnosis, monitoring and supervision, so the treatment will not be available over-the-counter.[/Q

http://pr.cannazine.co.uk/201009121340/green/eco-news/medical-cannabis-common-sense-in-ireland.html

oconcuc

ordinarywoman wrote: »

penguin88 wrote: »

I notice that one of the reasons often used to support the case for legalising cannabis is its potential uses in the treatment of pain, cancer, arthritis and other illnesses. It really intrigues me how such evidence is going to further the case for legalisation.

If medical uses do get approved here, the only result will be declassification of cannabis from Schedule 1 controlled drug to one of the lower schedules. The only way this will result in increased availability is if you happen to be a person suffering from one of the indicated diseases. These are serious diseases requiring medical diagnosis, monitoring and supervision, so the treatment will not be available over-the-counter.[/Q

http://pr.cannazine.co.uk/201009121340/green/eco-news/medical-cannabis-common-sense-in-ireland.html

While of course you are correct in your conclusions. I think many see the acceptance of cannabis in clinical treatments as a stepping stone along the way to full legalisation, as may be happening at the moment in California. The key for many activists is to remove the regulation of cannabis from the remit of the Criminal Justice system, where it is currently, and virtually exclusively.

I personally do not agree that this approach is the most appropriate or effective, but it is understandable, as the current approach of universal criminalisation of cannabis use results in greater injustices (needless criminalisation of a significant minority of the population) than a decriminalised medical model would.

It is much easier to get the wider, non-cannabis using public to sympathise with individuals who are genuinely suffering, than, say with a 20 year old University student.

Once the legalised medical model is in place, and is accepted by the wider community, the criminal justice system's role in control decreases rapidly. Because cannabis is on the lower end of the harm scale, the police would not pursue illicit trade as vigorously as they would other legal medical substances, such as opiate derived pain killers, or anti-anxiety therapies such as Valium.

paky

weedfreedomtinp wrote: »

Tobacco kills 750.000 per year

Alcohol kills 400.000 per year

coffee kills 4.500 per year

aspirin kills 7.500 per year

Cannabis Kills 0 what you say 0 dont believe me look in google videos for a video called

THE UNION , THE BUSINESS BEHIND CANNABIS ,,,

Its all in it ,,

from professors from Harvard uni and many more top Law official's


THE UNION , THE BUSINESS BEHIND CANNABIS ,,,

when you see the video please comment on this truly

whats the point in legalising cannabis when its easy enough to get anyway?

oconcuc

paky wrote: »

whats the point in legalising cannabis when its easy enough to get anyway?

It may be easy enough to get, but if you are unfortunate enough to get caught and convicted for possession, which happens every day, you will be stuck with a criminal conviction for the rest of your life. This will affect any future dealings in the courts, with the Gardai, possible career opportunities etc.

There is also a wider question as the legitimacy of laws that use the Criminal Law to get you to behave a certain way. Rigorous scientific analysis over the past 50 years has shown that while cannabis is not harmless, it is no more harmless than many other legal (in fact significantly less harmful than alcohol and tobacco as you have just pointed out), socially acceptable substances.

Does the State have the right to criminalise private citizens engaging in a relatively harmless activity just because it deviates from social norms.

These questions were asked by the homosexual community during the 1980's, most notably by David Norris, when this country still criminalised homosexuality. It took the European Court of Human Rights to force our Government of the day in 1993 to remove those Criminal penalties.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Thing is if it becomes available for prescription a girl can say to doctor - period pain really bad, weed helps.

Then guys could say they have a bad back etc. Might as well be legal at that stage.

I'd like to see recreational use nationalised to be honest. Could really do with the revenue.

Though there's too many capitalist interests for it to be legalised. Think of the Publicans reaction if they thought people might sit at home watching a film getting high instead of going to the pub.

Personally don't think its consumption would increase. I find a lot of people just don't like it.

ordinarywoman

paky wrote: »

whats the point in legalising cannabis when its easy enough to get anyway?

whether it be easy to get or not, if you're buying from some unknown person you dont know what you are getting really.why should someone who is sick put up with inferior medication that have been sprayed with god only knows what...
the question you should be asking is why is it illegal in the first place...

do you not think that this is a herb..it grows from the ground, it is less harmfull then paracetamol, has never claimed one single death, that can heal our failing bodies and failing economy...a god given plant..
and my god given right to treat myself medicinally with a herb should be illegal...in this day and age...

oconcuc

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Thing is if it becomes available for prescription a girl can say to doctor - period pain really bad, weed helps.

Then guys could say they have a bad back etc. Might as well be legal at that stage.

I'd like to see recreational use nationalised to be honest. Could really do with the revenue.

I assume you mean legalised.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Though there's too many capitalist interests for it to be legalised. Think of the Publicans reaction if they thought people might sit at home watching a film getting high instead of going to the pub.

Personally don't think its consumption would increase. I find a lot of people just don't like it.

You are correct. Evidence from the Netherlands shows that when use is normalised or de facto legalised, usage rates rise moderately and level out. So, for example, usage rates in the Netherlands is lower than in France, where cannabis is on a similar legal footing to Ireland.

Again, as with many other illegal drugs, most people don't take it because they don't want to, not because it is illegal.

heffomike54

Very interesting thread, I was wondering about this myself. Could the theory also be applied to prostitution? Both are black holes for the economy & would it be safer for concerned in both fields if the industries where regulated & controlled & hence, taxed?

I mean as it stands both are illegal & both take up large amounts of police / justice resources to police & investigate. If they were made legal would it solve anything or just cause another set of problems? Not sure either way myself

oconcuc

heffomike54 wrote: »

Very interesting thread, I was wondering about this myself. Could the theory also be applied to prostitution? Both are black holes for the economy & would it be safer for concerned in both fields if the industries where regulated & controlled & hence, taxed?

I mean as it stands both are illegal & both take up large amounts of police / justice resources to police & investigate. If they were made legal would it solve anything or just cause another set of problems? Not sure either way myself

Of course the same reasoning can be applied to Prostitution, but Prostitution is interesting in that the act itself is not illegal, it is the exchange of money for the act.

Looking at the situation for many of those involved in the Prostitution industry it would appear that having the business illegal makes it more dangerous.

Though Amsterdam is not the best example, in theory, a regulated legal industry would make working conditions safer and protect vulnerable men and women from entering it.

I do not know how beneficial to the country financially, making both legal would be, but the wider social impact of legalisation would be important. Again it comes back to the Criminal Justice model being inappropriate in dealing with the control of certain behaviours.

ordinarywoman

[QUOTE=oconcuc;680809

I do not know how beneficial to the country financially, making both legal would be, but the wider social impact of legalisation would be important. Again it comes back to the Criminal Justice model being inappropriate in dealing with the control of certain behaviours.[/QUOTE]




making hemp legal would save the economy in many ways...
hemp paper, hemp textile , clothing when the price of cotton soarking, its a renewable environmentally friendly fuel, that you can run your car off of, you can insulate your house with it...the industry, the growth..ireland should be screaming at people who take notice...hemp can save the day!!!

And all this before you look into it medicinally...
https://www.greenpassion.org/index.php?/topic/23575-new-420-page-grannys-mmj-list-july-2010/

oconcuc

ordinarywoman wrote: »

making hemp legal would save the economy in many ways...
hemp paper, hemp textile , clothing when the price of cotton soarking, its a renewable environmentally friendly fuel, that you can run your car off of, you can insulate your house with it...the industry, the growth..ireland should be screaming at people who take notice...hemp can save the day!!!

And all this before you look into it medicinally...
https://www.greenpassion.org/index.php?/topic/23575-new-420-page-grannys-mmj-list-july-2010/

Yes, you are very correct in highlighting the economic benefits to decriminalisation with regard to hemp products. To be honest, I never consider hemp when discussing cannabis reform. Because Ireland, the UK and US are quiet unique in classifying it the same as psychoactive, thc laden cannabis.

The economic benefits I had in mind were more along the lines of revenue that could be raised directly through the sale of cannabis.

But I suppose the biggest savings initially could be made in the area of law enforcement. As cannabis makes up the overwhelming majority of possession arrests and general drug convictions, huge amounts of money could be saved by removing those burdens from the criminal justice system immediately.

old_aussie

Open up man it's Dave.........Dave's not here.

It could be a money spinner for the economy as long as there was a 50%

tax on it to pay for the hospital sysyem and keep the dole going.

oconcuc

old_aussie wrote: »

Open up man it's Dave.........Dave's not here.

It could be a money spinner for the economy as long as there was a 50%

tax on it to pay for the hospital sysyem and keep the dole going.

Yes there would undoubtedly be money saved and earned, but it would be small when compared with that raised through taxation on alcohol or tobacco. As I already pointed out, even with cannabis decriminalised, usage rates would probably not rise as dramatically to put them on a par with smoking or alcohol use.

I think the bigger argument to be made for cannabis legalisation is from a personal rights perspective. Criminalising its use is a violation of our Constitutionally recognised rights to privacy, bodily integrity and freedom of expression.

Bottle_of_Smoke

oconcuc wrote: »

I assume you mean legalised.

Well yes but also nationalised. Ie government agency in charge of dispensing it. If run well could mean a lot of profit for the government. Otherwise people could be given licences to sell and put a high tax on it. Guess head shops could sell it. With the smoking ban I don't see a coffee shop culture working.

I'm living in Netherlands now and there is a smoking ban here - ie officially you cannot smoke tobacco in coffeeshops/bars but it isn't adhered to strictly like in Ireland

Nodferatu

legalize it, the proof is in the FACTS, cigarettes are pumped with chemicals and some of the chemicals are the same in a fly or bug spray killer. weed is a natural herbal plant, a f***ing plant, it grows on earth, god put it here. it has lots of healing properties also, why are cancer patients in America allowed a prescription to use weed then??

pdbhp

Are you saying that cannabis smoking doesn't cause lung or throat cancers and the associated intoxication doesn't cause accidents?

If you use a vaporiser to smoke cannibas then it removes all the harmful elements etc from the drug.
As for accidents I wouldn't say it would cause as many accidents as alcohol especially on the roads and the hospitals wouldn't be packed full of drunken people getting put back together from thier evenings entertainment.
The main problem would be with the mental health of the users so before they even considered legalising it then there'd have to be some sort of independent study into the effects on ones mental state especially in younger people like teenagers etc.

Nodferatu

there is no HARDLINE evidence to show cannabis causes cancer but its a well known fact tobacco does cause lung cancer

oconcuc

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Well yes but also nationalised. Ie government agency in charge of dispensing it. If run well could mean a lot of profit for the government. Otherwise people could be given licences to sell and put a high tax on it. Guess head shops could sell it. With the smoking ban I don't see a coffee shop culture working.

I'm living in Netherlands now and there is a smoking ban here - ie officially you cannot smoke tobacco in coffeeshops/bars but it isn't adhered to strictly like in Ireland

I think putting it on a similar legal and regulatory footing with alcohol, but being a little more restrictive about permitting licenses for growing and selling commercially, would be more within the spirit of Irish business. We like variety, as we now do with alcohol. Having a State monopoly in the commercial manufacture and sale of a recreational drug may not help with undermining the black market for cannabis.

This approach would also permit unregulated domestic cultivation for personal use, as with beer and wine and cider. But once you began selling, you would require licensing, inspection, analysis of product and quality controls.

Zambia

Nodferatu wrote: »

lweed is a natural herbal plant, a f***ing plant,

As opposed to tobacco which is .... bugger me its a plant too. :rolleyes:

oconcuc

pdbhp wrote: »

The main problem would be with the mental health of the users so before they even considered legalising it then there'd have to be some sort of independent study into the effects on ones mental state especially in younger people like teenagers etc.

There have already been a number of studies into adverse mental health effects of cannabis use. Most have shown some link between excessive use and the development of some forms of schizophrenia. However many of the researchers point out these trends are visible in alcohol use, and can be attributed to possible attempts by patients to self-medicate with cannabis when the first signs of illness take hold.

The mental health argument, I feel, is a side argument and a distraction. For anyone who has smoked cannabis every day, purely as a lifestyle choice (ie not medical), and has now stopped, there is a noticeable increase in cognitive functions.

Excessive use has negative effects, as excess normally has. This is no reason to criminalise it. Most users are responsible, probably a higher proportion of cannabis users are more responsible in their behaviours than alcohol users.

Just because there is a risk, and it is a very low risk of developing mental health issues, does not justify outright prohibition. If you use this risk averse logic, you could ban surfing. More people die from surfing every year. We don't need surfing. There is anecdotal evidence to suggest surfing encourages deviant and anti-establishment behaviour (remind you of anything?). For the safety of our children, lets start a ban surfing campaign.

oconcuc

Nodferatu wrote: »

there is no HARDLINE evidence to show cannabis causes cancer but its a well known fact tobacco does cause lung cancer

There is NO evidence whatsoever to indicate cannabis causes cancer. Even when smoked.

Nodferatu

Zambia232 wrote: »

As opposed to tobacco which is .... bugger me its a plant too. :rolleyes:

aah... i never said tobacco wasn't a plant did i?? but people make it sound like weed isn't natural its this evil man made substance, its just like tobacco only less harmful, weed isn't pumped with chemicals like tobacco is :rolleyes:

oconcuc

Nodferatu wrote: »

aah... i never said tobacco wasn't a plant did i?? but people make it sound like weed isn't natural its this evil man made substance, its just like tobacco only less harmful, weed isn't pumped with chemicals like tobacco is :rolleyes:

Because of the current prohibition, there is no quality control, so in fact much of the cannabis consumed is pumped with chemical additives. You can get tobacco that is free from the additives you describe. See American Spirit.

Nodferatu

oconcuc wrote: »

Because of the current prohibition, there is no quality control, so in fact much of the cannabis consumed is pumped with chemical additives. You can get tobacco that is free from the additives you describe. See American Spirit.

not if you grow your own plant, you KNOW its natural then.
and most people run into a shop here in ireland and ask for 20 benson or 20 silk cut dont they, what cigarettes are sold in ireland that are free of additives and chemicals, name a list of them

Zambia

Nodferatu wrote: »

aah... i never said tobacco wasn't a plant did i?? but people make it sound like weed isn't natural its this evil man made substance, its just like tobacco only less harmful, weed isn't pumped with chemicals like tobacco is :rolleyes:

So if both where not treated with chemicals they would not be harmful?

Lets not be naive inhaling smoke from anything is not natural.

Since this has been dragged up I still reckon a trial legalising it cant hurt to much.

oconcuc

Nodferatu wrote: »

not if you grow your own plant, you KNOW its natural then.
and most people run into a shop here in ireland and ask for 20 benson or 20 silk cut dont they, what cigarettes are sold in ireland that are free of additives and chemicals, name a list of them

Sure, but using your line of thinking, why don't you grown your own tobacco.

oconcuc

Zambia232 wrote: »

So if both where not treated with chemicals they would not be harmful?

Lets not be naive inhaling smoke from anything is not natural.

Since this has been dragged up I still reckon a trial legalising it cant hurt to much.

You are quite right. Inhaling smokes is not natural and it would probably be best if you didn't.

But once you are an adult, shouldn't that decision be left up to you? And not a misguided government policy directed at generally law-abiding members of the community.