Cannabis should be legalized in Ireland To pull Our country out of ression

Corsendonk

How will legalising Cannabis pull us out of recession?????? Apart from getting a few more extra stag parties from GB.

charlemont

soon as i finish my weights, im skinning up a joint and boiling the kettle.

ordinarywoman

Corsendonk wrote: »

How will legalising Cannabis pull us out of recession?????? Apart from getting a few more extra stag parties from GB.

If the government was to to house a few grow houses, plant a few seeds...employ people to tend to it,and then sell it to the public...or tax what been already produced...twould make millions and quickly too..a lot quicker then any tolls they put on our roads...it would generate huge employment...from the growers to the coffee shops...and the 'pharmacies'...
and then there is the textile,fuel, clothing,paper,energy business too...

They need billions...well this is the answer, its very obvious...all they have to do is open their eyes and look to our neighbouring countrys...the Lib Dems in the UK want it legalised...the US is leading the way and California knows it can generated enough money to help their financial situation, Holland, Portugal..

GreeBo

Legalizing it may not increase the usage by Irish citizens, but point me to the study that proves legalizing it in one country doesnt involve a massive increase in tourists usage.

I would cite the number of tourists smoking weed in Amsterdam on my side.:rolleyes:

oconcuc

GreeBo wrote: »

Legalizing it may not increase the usage by Irish citizens, but point me to the study that proves legalizing it in one country doesnt involve a massive increase in tourists usage.

I would cite the number of tourists smoking weed in Amsterdam on my side.

I already dealt with this point you made on the previous page, comment number 533 but here it is again.

oconcuc wrote: »

That is an excellent point. The key there would be strict licensing of the sale and consumption of cannabis or any other drug. So you would limit any point of sale in areas such as temple bar, where there has been no rational planning for the distribution of liquor licenses.

You would not permit on the street consumption, as with alcohol.

If you want to avoid an Amsterdam-style scenario, then don't follow the Dutch model, which is unregulated decriminalisation. Not legalisation and full regulation, which is what the people of California will be voting on this November.

The Dutch model does not deal with the natural issues that result from an unregulated market. They are beginning to clamp down on the prevalence of Coffee shops, but so much of their tourist industry is based on it now, economic factors are stifling any progressive changes.

If a State takes full responsibility, and learns from the past mistakes of a laissez faire system of alcohol and tobacco regulation (which society is now starting to come to terms with), a much more effective and mature economy could develop.

kraggy

I reckon extending bar/club opening hours would be even better than legalising cannabis.

More jobs
More VAT returns
Charge the bars and clubs hefty fees for the extensions
Turn this country into a clubbing land and have thousands of more tourists

Makes sense to me, but not to the old useless idiots in Dáil Eireann.

bildo

I don't think it matters.
I don't think it has anything to do with the recession at all, cannabis should be re-legalised because it is the right thing to do.
Prohibition has cause huge social problems and decades of social conflict, destroyed families, livelihoods and countless millions of lives and needs to end as soon as possible for no other reason than justice.

oconcuc

kraggy wrote: »

I reckon extending bar/club opening hours would be even better than legalising cannabis.

More jobs
More VAT returns
Charge the bars and clubs hefty fees for the extensions
Turn this country into a clubbing land and have thousands of more tourists

Makes sense to me, but not to the old useless idiots in Dáil Eireann.

I have to say I disagree with unrestricted licensing hours for bars and nightclubs. Living in London, where they deregulated opening hours, I cannot say that the safety of the public at night has improved, nor has the job of the police been made easier.

When I lived in Dublin, I was in favor, as were many young people of my generation, of cheaper alcohol and longer opening hours. It irritated me, when I travelled abroad in Spain and France that you could, if you wanted buy alcohol at any time, and bars were free to close when they wanted, which in France, is generally very early anyway.

However, I have come to believe, since I stopped going out drinking every weekend, that northern Europeans, like Irish, British, and Scandinavians do not know how to drink appropriately or responsibly.

This belief is founded on a number of personal experiences, not evidence based research, so I do not claim to be an expert on the issue. But my gut feeling is that if you lengthen hours, Irish will drink more. Some may drink more slowly, but on the whole, I think they will drink more.

If you have ever been on holidays with fellow Irish in a jurisdiction that has cheap alcohol, Irish people do not say to themselves,"the booze is cheaper, so I will save some money", my experience has been," the booze is cheaper, so I can drink more".

I am a believer in allowing people to do what they want to their bodies, within reason. That means, you can drink, but under controls that are designed to limit the damage you do, not only to yourself (hence we tax alcohol to offset the cost to the exchequer that alcohol-associated health harms create, that's the theory anyway), but also limit the damage you could potentially do to the community (so we license who can sell it, and where and when it can be sold).

This reasoning follows onto my stance on drug legalisation. You should be allowed to take cannabis, ecstacy, cocaine or heroin, as are your recognised constitutional rights to privacy, freedom of expression and bodily integrity. But the community is entitled to take certain measures to restrict the potential harm to the community at large. So cannabis, ecstacy and cocaine would be sold in a highly regulated and licensed environment, with appropriate measures and taxes undertaken to offset the cost to the community potential abuse of these substances can create.

When this issue gets discussed, many people believe those who are in favor of legalisation are in favor of a completely unregulated, laissez-faire market for all substances. That could not be further from the truth. Most of those who have taken an academic and evidence-based assessment of the situation usually just see that the Criminal Law is an inappropriate means of controlling this particular type of human behaviour.

The Criminal Law was originally created to regulate and control your behaviour towards your fellow man, and the community at large. Not to tell you how to behave in relation to your own mind and body.

Drug abuse can be tragically destructive. But the Criminal Law has failed to alleviate any of that tragedy, it merely compounds it further, by needlessly dragging responsible, safe and harmless users into the wider sphere of criminalisation.

But if the Criminal Law were removed from this issue, there are other more effective means of dealing with these issues. Strict quality control, diverting funds away from the Gardai and into drug counselling or detoxification programmes, strict licensing, etc.....

bildo

oconcuc wrote: »

Strict quality control, diverting funds away from the Gardai and into drug counselling or detoxification programmes, strict licensing, etc.....

More importantly towards education on drugs that goes a litlle bit further than the "drugs are bad" that everyone is taight in school by teachers whose knowledge is probably the weakest on the subject in society.
I firmly believe that the majority of hard drug addictions are a result of young people first discovering soft drugs and managine them with little or no negative side effects and coming to the conclusion that everything they learned about drugs in school was total nonsense and assuming the hard ones are just as harmful as the likes of MDMA or cannabis.
I remember being 10 and convinced that everyone who swallowed a pill's heart exploded and if you smoked a joint you'd go crazy... I learned that in school. It makes sense that after learning the truth, anything you've been taught about cocaine and herione is thrown into doubt.
Mis-education is lethal in thede circumstances.

ordinarywoman

bildo wrote: »

More importantly towards education on drugs that goes a litlle bit further than the "drugs are bad" that everyone is taight in school by teachers whose knowledge is probably the weakest on the subject in society.


i completely agree...we have absolutely no decent drug education thats relevent for todays kids....and there is so many new drugs out on the market now chemically made with god only knows what added....sand in honesty scare mongering youngsters doesn't work...they cant continue to lie and tell them that cannibis will kill us and that if we take too much we'll definatly be a herion addict, all their therories have been ripped to shreads over the last few years...

At least with mj...if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and smells like a duck then it probally is the peverbial duck and probably probably is mj...you cant be gaureenteed that it hasn't been dusted or that it is any good...only that what you've bought is mj..

more taxes on alcohol...and later opening hours are not going to make the significant amount of money needed...and drinkers in this country have already forked out taxes on every pint they've bought....if the price of a pint goes up any more, it'll become too expensive for the ordinary joe soap.

ScottStorm

Corsendonk wrote: »

How will legalising Cannabis pull us out of recession?????? Apart from getting a few more extra stag parties from GB.

Cannabis has many more uses than just as a drug, if large scale farming of cannabis hemp was to take off in this country it would keep money in the country that currently is leaving it.

Ireland could supply it's own paper made from hemp, for example the Irish Times currently is printed on paper which is made from Swedish and Finnish pulp, where they to source paper made from the Irish hemp that money would remain in the Irish economy.

Hemp can also be used to make biomass fuels such as methane and provide fuel for our vehicles, it can be used to generate electricity and reduce our reliance on fossil fuels provided by other nations.

Hemp seeds have been a source of staple food for humans and birds for centuries, they are also a viable alternative for animal feed providing protein and essential fatty acids.

There are endless economic and environmental and opportunities to be had from legalising cannabis hemp. It does not solely relate to medical / social smoking and corresponding cannabis tourism.

Personally I shudder at the thought of the tourist board adds inviting Americans to smoke weed with the leprachauns.

Joey the lips

I have to say I am linked into this thread from the start i must say it is pure daft and most of it unproven. There is a number of points I must raise.

1. Over the next few years there is forcasted shortages in food which will mean that the increased agricultural space required will not be there,

2, To grow cannibas requires a massive amount of energy which is produced by coal and oil fired power stations...

3. The revenue generated by Ciggerattes has proven to be a revenue generator for black markets.

I can go on but the last point says it all..

If the amount of people that actually wanted to see cannabis legalised actually got out and voted on poleing day it would send a clear message to the govt and the now minorities or lower class might actually be listened to .

ordinarywoman

Joey the lips wrote: »

I have to say I am linked into this thread from the start i must say it is pure daft and most of it unproven. There is a number of points I must raise.

1. Over the next few years there is forcasted shortages in food which will mean that the increased agricultural space required will not be there,

2, To grow cannibas requires a massive amount of energy which is produced by coal and oil fired power stations...

3. The revenue generated by Ciggerattes has proven to be a revenue generator for black markets.

I can go on but the last point says it all..

If the amount of people that actually wanted to see cannabis legalised actually got out and voted on poleing day it would send a clear message to the govt and the now minorities or lower class might actually be listened to .

what is daft and unproven??

hemp is already been used as a green bio fuel, it grows in the soil, and uses the sun for energy...obviously thc producing canabis and mass producung canabis would have enerygy cost but why cant they be wind powered or powered by hemp bio fuel??
Would it not help the ozone layer as well with all the green growth..
Ciggerettes can kill you eventually...canabis has not yet got a recorded death to its name....
your last point i agree with...

ScottStorm

Joey the lips wrote: »

I have to say I am linked into this thread from the start i must say it is pure daft and most of it unproven. There is a number of points I must raise.

1. Over the next few years there is forcasted shortages in food which will mean that the increased agricultural space required will not be there,

2, To grow cannibas requires a massive amount of energy which is produced by coal and oil fired power stations...

3. The revenue generated by Ciggerattes has proven to be a revenue generator for black markets.

I can go on but the last point says it all..

If the amount of people that actually wanted to see cannabis legalised actually got out and voted on poleing day it would send a clear message to the govt and the now minorities or lower class might actually be listened to .

1) Hemp can and has been grown as food the hemp seeds are a better source of essential amino acids and fatty acids than any other crop. Hemp seeds can be used to make highly nutritious foodstuffs in the vein of tofu.

2) Hemp can be a source of energy. A Biological digester can provide biogas and alcohol. A Pyrolactic reactor can provide methanol, fuel oil and charcoal. These fuel stuffs can be used to provide electricity and transportation fuels.
Using hemp based bio mass fuels is cyclical, while the hemp grows the plant takes in CO2, this CO2 is released when the fuel is burnt therefore it does not add to the greenhouse effect as fossil fuels do.

3) Presuming you meant tobacco products it is correct that there are many streams of revenue on the black markets of the world.

Your last point I agree with and should a suitable candidate stand up and approach the people of Ireland with an intelligent proposition I am confident that a good proportion of the population would back them.

nxbyveromdwjpg

Joey the lips wrote: »

3. The revenue generated by Ciggerattes has proven to be a revenue generator for black markets.

Grand, we'll keep it illegal then, that way the black markets wont make a penny out of cannabis

bildo

joey the lips wrote:

To grow cannibas requires a massive amount of energy which is produced by coal and oil fired power stations...

Cannabis has been growing for millions of years without the need for coal and oil fired power stations.

Scottstorm wrote:

Hemp can be a source of energy. A Biological digester can provide biogas and alcohol. A Pyrolactic reactor can provide methanol, fuel oil and charcoal. These fuel stuffs can be used to provide electricity and transportation fuels.
Using hemp based bio mass fuels is cyclical, while the hemp grows the plant takes in CO2, this CO2 is released when the fuel is burnt therefore it does not add to the greenhouse effect as fossil fuels do.

Hemp is a horribly inefficient source of biofuel. I for one am very firmly using a single square inch of good arable land while there are over a billion starving people in the world right now. The are other, cheaper alternatives but that is another thread altogether.

And there is already hemp being grown in this country, it is a fantastic source of fibre that is useful for pretty much anything. It is quite possible to get a licence to cultivate industrial hemp in Ireland. I know there is a huge area of it in Mayo somewhere.

rubadub

bildo wrote: »

Cannabis has been growing for millions of years without the need for coal and oil fired power stations.

+1, he must be thinking of grow lights, well growing pineapples in your attic under metal halides would also use a lot of energy, so leave it to suitable tropics. Though there are strains suited to our climate outside, and not just industrial hemp.

bildo wrote: »

And there is already hemp being grown in this country,.

More info here
The Performance Of Cannabis Sativa (HEMP) As A Fibre Source For Medium Density Fibre Board

oconcuc

rubadub wrote: »

+1, he must be thinking of grow lights, well growing pineapples in your attic under metal halides would also use a lot of energy, so leave it to suitable tropics. Though there are strains suited to our climate outside, and not just industrial hemp.

The reason there are so many more arrests for cultivating cannabis indoors is due mainly to the fact that if grown outdoors, risk of detection is far higher. Cannabis is grown indoors in huge amounts in California, British Columbia, France, etc. all regions that are excellent for outdoor cultivation. The only reason indoor cultivation under lights has been made economical is due to its illegality.

oconcuc

Joey the lips wrote: »

I have to say I am linked into this thread from the start i must say it is pure daft and most of it unproven. There is a number of points I must raise.

1. Over the next few years there is forcasted shortages in food which will mean that the increased agricultural space required will not be there,

This is an amusing point, are you suggesting the prohibition on cannabis should continue to conserve arable agricultural land?

Joey the lips wrote: »

2, To grow cannibas requires a massive amount of energy which is produced by coal and oil fired power stations...

The only reason it is economical to cultivate cannabis indoors under high energy consuming High Pressure Sodium lights, is as a result of the ongoing prohibition. Higher detection rates for outdoor crops also adds to the prevalence of indoor cultivation.

Joey the lips wrote: »

3. The revenue generated by Ciggerattes has proven to be a revenue generator for black markets.

Yes, but all of the corollary costs associated with tobacco use are clawed back from the tax revenue from legitimate sales. Drug Prohibition is just cost piled upon cost for the public purse.

Joey the lips

Amazing... One point can generate 5 responses... and all contradicting... If its this good on poleing day your half way to the goal....

I truly dont know who to answer on this on....

tomasocarthaigh

We had enough bother with the head shops.

Legalise cannabis? No way. Thats my vote.

Lab_Mouse

tomasocarthaigh wrote: »

We had enough bother with the head shops.

and the head shops had been around for a few years before joe duffy and the evening herald got there hands on them.

Lab_Mouse

GreeBo wrote: »

I would cite the number of tourists smoking weed in Amsterdam on my side.:rolleyes:

And what would be wrong with that(from a pov that it was legal)?people come over here on stags to go the piss,why not let them come over here and go on there stag and get stoned...

oconcuc

tomasocarthaigh wrote: »

We had enough bother with the head shops.

Legalise cannabis? No way. Thats my vote.

The main problem with the Head Shops was what I call Liveline Hysteria. Perhaps you also contracted this common among the masses, rational thinking suspending condition?

Aside from the anecdotes of Joe Duffy's Groupies, there was not a single shred of evidence offered from any study into the wider social and health implications of having mind altering substances being sold outside of the Criminal black market.

The real problem with head shops were that they were completely unregulated and unpoliced. There was no framework to test and assess the effects of these substances being sold, and tax according to their potential for harm. There was no licensing for sale, no planning permission required to control the number and location of point-of-sale. There was no laws prohibiting sale to minors, and no policing of such prohibitions.

There are some other members of the public, other than the Liveline mob, who are very happy with the outcome for headshops, the unscrupulous individuals who produce, supply and sell the mainstream illicit substances such as MDMA and Cocaine. Their state-enforced monopoly has been restored.

Well done Joe.

oconcuc

Joey the lips wrote: »

Amazing... One point can generate 5 responses... and all contradicting... If its this good on poleing day your half way to the goal....

I truly dont know who to answer on this on....

You made three points, all having been disposed of rationally, referring to facts.

the groutch

oconcuc wrote: »

The main problem with the Head Shops was what I call Liveline Hysteria. Perhaps you also contracted this common among the masses, rational thinking suspending condition?

Aside from the anecdotes of Joe Duffy's Groupies, there was not a single shred of evidence offered from any study into the wider social and health implications of having mind altering substances being sold outside of the Criminal black market.

The real problem with head shops were that they were completely unregulated and unpoliced. There was no framework to test and assess the effects of these substances being sold, and tax according to their potential for harm. There was no licensing for sale, no planning permission required to control the number and location of point-of-sale. There was no laws prohibiting sale to minors, and no policing of such prohibitions.

There are some other members of the public, other than the Liveline mob, who are very happy with the outcome for headshops, the unscrupulous individuals who produce, supply and sell the mainstream illicit substances such as MDMA and Cocaine. Their state-enforced monopoly has been restored.

Well done Joe.

the problem with head shops was the amount of muggings and knife crime from people who needed money to get their fix. As soon as all the head shops closed down these sorts of crimes pretty much hslved overnight.

So if people want it legallised, then fine, but be ready to have people on every corner begging/theiving/mugging to fund their habit.

Pace2008

the groutch wrote: »

So if people want it legallised, then fine, but be ready to have people on every corner begging/theiving/mugging to fund their habit.

Mugging and begging to fund a cannabis habit? Are you actually pulling the piss? Do you even know what weed is?

oconcuc

the groutch wrote: »

the problem with head shops was the amount of muggings and knife crime from people who needed money to get their fix. As soon as all the head shops closed down these sorts of crimes pretty much hslved overnight.

So if people want it legallised, then fine, but be ready to have people on every corner begging/theiving/mugging to fund their habit.

Really? That is interesting, as I have a friend who a member of the Garda Reserve in Pearse Street Station, and also an addiction psychologist, who said there was no drop in crime following the end to Head shop trading.

In fact, he said there has been a remarkable increase in the last year of street crime in the city centre, that is continuing to rise.

Heroin use has been increasing for the past two years in the city, and countrywide, regardless of whether there are headshops, legal highs, or with all drugs being illegal.

Personally, and I am looking at reports on this subject every day, I have not read one study or even statistic, that indicated street crime was on the increase as a result of Head Shops. Where have you gotten your gem of knowledge, might I ask?

Historically, crime levels, particularly theft, tend to increase when economic prosperity declines. When the economic woes of the 1980's began, Dublin had one of the highest rates of theft and drug-related crime in Europe. And that was after the government enforced even stricter criminal penalties for drug crimes under the Misuse of Drugs Amendments.

What can we gather from this? Problem drug use (overwhelmingly opiate drug use) follows economic and social trends, not what policy-makers are deciding to criminalise.

During the 1980's, a situation we are seeing similarities with currently, the vast majority of illicit drug-related crime (that is crime where drug use was a factor, not simply the crimes of drug posession or sale) was as a result of opiate use.

There was no proven link between head shops and crime.

Crime rates have not decreased as a result of their closure.

Problem drug use, or abuse, centred overwhelmingly around heroin use, is increasing, regardless of its status in the Criminal Law.

Criminal Prohibition does little or nothing to limit drug crime, or drug related crime.

These are the realities, unless of course someone has evidence from a peer-reviewed study to indicate otherwise.

ordinarywoman

tomasocarthaigh wrote: »

We had enough bother with the head shops.

Legalise cannabis? No way. Thats my vote.

Canabis was never sold in head shops...what was sold in head shops was chemically based crap...all which can be bought very easily off the internet on the blackmarket still...people are still getting and taking legal highs.

Legalise a natural plant that has proven to have less toxicity to any other drug including alcohol??
Why would you not want the option to put whatever YOU chose into your own body?
,has the government never lied to us...is it all that difficult to believe that legalising canabis could be the making of this country,in its current financial climate, considing how the government really stood up and told the truth that time..
is it all that difficult to believe the thousands of pages of reserch that proves that smoking a joint wont send you to the asylum...
How many people do you personally know that has become addicted to canabis, or has gone to asylum because of marijuana?

ordinarywoman

Joey the lips wrote: »

Amazing... One point can generate 5 responses... and all contradicting... If its this good on poleing day your half way to the goal....

I truly dont know who to answer on this on....

the one where you were asked what is daft and unproven??