Question for Vegan, Animal Rights People.

CokaColumbo

Hello everybody,

For those of you who have rejected the consumption of eggs and dairy, purely out of conviction for your animal rights beliefs: why did you make this decision and what was your reasoning behind it?
Do you think it is hypocritical to, on the one hand, shun the consumption of meat for moral reasons whilst, on the other, consume milk and dairy?

Finally, what are your opinions, specifically, on Free Range Eggs?

I have been a vegetarian since March '09 and am exploring the possibility of Veganism. I feel quite hypocritical for rejecting meat, leather, animal tested goods etc. whilst continuing to consume eggs and dairy. That said, this is not America and abuse in the dairy and free-range industries is minimal at worst, correct?

Your thoughts, ladies and gentlemen!

CokaColumbo

Nobody?

maameeo

id reply but im just a veggie.
i do feel guilty sometimes, worried that the animals that gave me the dairy/egg where badly treated
and also on eggs, id eat only free range chicken eggs, i wouldnt be able to eat eggs from different birds, is that just me?

Tar.Aldarion

CokaColumbo wrote: »

Hello everybody,

For those of you who have rejected the consumption of eggs and dairy, purely out of conviction for your animal rights beliefs: why did you make this decision and what was your reasoning behind it?

I have not myself done so, I may become a vegan as time goes on however. My reasons would be the same as my vegetarianism, ethical.
I think it is wrong to make them suffer as well as kill them etc.

Do you think it is hypocritical to, on the one hand, shun the consumption of meat for moral reasons whilst, on the other, consume milk and dairy?

That depends on your morals. One might mind the killing of anmals for our gain, but not a relationship where they are taken care of in exchange for milk/eggs and others would have varying views on it. I would have more of a problem with dairy than eggs because I would not be sure what happens to the cow with each brand, how it is treated and so on. Also, you have to decide for yourself whether we have the right to be taking things from this animals in the first place, perhaps not.
Eggs are less of a problem for me, you can eat eggs from a chicken in your garden, ho harm, no fowl. Hoho. That is what I buy atm.

Finally, what are your opinions, specifically, on Free Range Eggs?

Free range is still not good enough conditions but it is a better choice. If all eggs were free range it would be a good start.

I have been a vegetarian since March '09 and am exploring the possibility of Veganism. I feel quite hypocritical for rejecting meat, leather, animal tested goods etc. whilst continuing to consume eggs and dairy. That said, this is not America and abuse in the dairy and free-range industries is minimal at worst, correct?

Your thoughts, ladies and gentlemen!

Your ethics are your ethics, just do what you feel is right, they seem similar to mine and a friends, we were recently chatting about this. For the same reasons we became vegetarian we will proabbly become vegan sooner or later. Reducing pain/suffering/death in animals where it is not needed. It's all about minimising this for me.

maameeo wrote: »

id reply but im just a veggie.
i do feel guilty sometimes, worried that the animals that gave me the dairy/egg where badly treated
and also on eggs, id eat only free range chicken eggs, i wouldnt be able to eat eggs from different birds, is that just me?

Any vegetarian I have asked about it aslways says they try to only eat free range. It's harder to know when you are buying foods with egg in the recipe though.
It's not just you, I find the conditions batter hens are under disgusting.

tallaght01

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Free range is still not good enough conditions but it is a better choice. If all eggs were free range it would be a good start.

why not? I only eat free range eggs, for what I thought were ethical reasons. I assumed they get to leggit around a farm. What do I not know here? :P

Tar.Aldarion

I'm not actually sure I am completely accurate on that, although it depends on what people find acceptable ethical conditions. I might find it acceptable, I don't know the laws regarding what you can call a free range chicken here. I was just having a talk with a friend about this, as I said, and he mentioned he had looked into how free range chickens were kept here and didn't find it satisfactory. Just a barn full of tightly packed chickens as opposed to a small cage, where they were allowed out rarely. I think he said there was some loophole where they just have to be let ouside 'at some point in their life' to be called free range. I suppose it would vary from farm to farm etc. He too said when he went looking he was expecting them to be llegging it round a farm happy out. :-p However this is all very anecdotal and I should ask him more specifics as to what he was looking at before I write wild generalisations like the above at 4am without knowing.

I thought that they had to be given a few square metre space all day per chicken and had to be allowed outside a good bit? Maybe that is 'organic'. Something for me to look up tomorrow. Whatever the case may be, it's far better than battery anyway.

Crumble Froo

CokaColumbo wrote: »

Hello everybody,

For those of you who have rejected the consumption of eggs and dairy, purely out of conviction for your animal rights beliefs: why did you make this decision and what was your reasoning behind it?

still a vegetarian as opposed to a vegan, but in the last 3 weeks i have started the shift towards cutting dairy out of my diet. just avoiding yoghurt, and cheese and buying soy milk instead of cow milk at the moment. slowly edging myself towards dark chocolate too, but it's all a bit baby steps at the moment, i dont think my body could handle another drastic change in diet any time soon, and gotta look after my wallet too.

but yep, i've made the decision that the farming industries, in general, are quite fcuked. unnecessarily cruel conditions and yeah, just something i dont want to have a part of.

Do you think it is hypocritical to, on the one hand, shun the consumption of meat for moral reasons whilst, on the other, consume milk and dairy?

nah, i wouldnt say it's hypocritical. every little counts, imo. it's down to lifestyle, personal beliefs and your own situation. i'd love to be vegan, but can't afford it financially at the moment, not to mention that my diet is just not healthy enough to cut out dairy and eggs.

Finally, what are your opinions, specifically, on Free Range Eggs?

i think it's the way forward, and i think that more and more people are starting to demand free range. people are starting to look at where their food comes from and i think that's great. personally, ill only eat free range eggs.

That said, this is not America and abuse in the dairy and free-range industries is minimal at worst, correct?

y'know, i really want to investigate that now...

Your thoughts, ladies and gentlemen!

i reckon you should do what you want in your own time and for your own reasons. keep it up dude, fair play

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I thought that they had to be given a few square metre space all day per chicken and had to be allowed outside a good bit? Maybe that is 'organic'. Something for me to look up tomorrow. Whatever the case may be, it's far better than battery anyway.

i always thought organic meant just minus chemicals? that the animals werent doped up on antibiotics their whole life and there's not a heap of weedkiller or whatever around whatever it is that they eat... ?

CokaColumbo

Thanks Tar.Aldarion and Crumble Froo your replies.

I guess my main problem with Free Range eggs is the lack of knowledge about conditions in these places. I haven't found any resource which gives a truly accurate picture of life on Irish Free Range farms. Tar.Aldarion, are you able to verify or provide solid information on what your mate is saying?

In a way, I think the yanks have it easy; the egg and dairy industry is riddled with abuse so it is very easy for any ethically minded vegetarian to take the plunge and go vegan. Here, it is much harder to put your finger on any sort of abuse in the dairy industry and FR eggs industry.
My uncle is a standard Irish dairy farmer and I know that his dairy cows are well looked after. They need to be because the dairy industry in this country is so unbelievably strict about milk standards that every cow needs to be fed and treated with attention. If you dont satisfy standards and inspections, the big milk companies simply wont send their nice shiny tankers around to buy your milk, simple as.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tar.Aldarion
It's harder to know when you are buying foods with egg in the recipe though.

This is a big issue for me. I think that when you believe, in principal, that it is acceptable to buy and eat eggs from a super market or wherever, you sort of let the flood gates open, and stop bothering to check the origin of eggs as part of a recipe. I get the mentality that "screw it, Im already eating eggs without really knowing what the term 'Free Range' actually means in practice; so whats the real difference if I eat this cake which contains eggs which were probably battery caged?"

Kiddynamite

The definition of free range across the EU seems a bit less reassuring than I thought.

"Hens in free-range systems may be kept in a large perchery-type shed but they must also have access to an outside area covered in vegetation. Conditions can be very good for the birds if there are not too many of them together in a single flock. A particularly good system is where a number of small moveable houses are used (each house holds around 100 birds). Free-range hens can behave naturally; they can scratch and peck at the ground, stretch and flap their wings, dustbathe, etc. The eggs are sold as "Free range eggs".

In systems where the free-range hens are fed on a natural diet and certain other standards are met, the eggs are called "organic"."

http://www.ciwf.ie/farminfo/farmfacts_egghens.html

I eat dairy and eggs myself but the main reason why I sometimes feel like a hypocrite is because I drink milk and eat cheese. The fact that calves are useless to farmers unless they're killed means that by consuming milk and cheese I'm still contributing to their slaughter.

Thoushaltnot

I'm currently working through "The Omnivores Dilemma" - I'd recommend it although the situation seems better regulated in the EU, from the point of view of the animals and their food quality.

That said, the food industry in Europe (and elsewhere) has found many ways around the regulations. There was an excellent expose of it a few months back, possibly on BBC3. In fact, the reporter went about deliberately trying to sell a pie made of old meat, gristle & gak and market it as wholesome, natural and trustworthy without breaking any laws. The minute my memory kicks in, I'll post up the title. Yet again, I've been super relieved to be veggie.

Then theres outright food fraud, a la Dinny Byrnes 'organic eggs' on Glenroe (seems to have happened recently in UK, involving some Irish sporting 'hero').

In short, I'd avoid 'ready meals', especially if they contain eggs. Better to cook your food from scratch. And I'm lucky, at the Food Co-Op nearby, I can get Moonshine milk (organic, biodynamic, non homogenized, cream on top - old skool. Farmer might be on the 6.01 news this evening) and if I wanted, eggs from aother farmer, who's been vouched for.

Do what you can, rather than give up in despair. We'll get there eventually.

Tar.Aldarion

CokaColumbo wrote: »

Thanks Tar.Aldarion and Crumble Froo your replies.

I guess my main problem with Free Range eggs is the lack of knowledge about conditions in these places. I haven't found any resource which gives a truly accurate picture of life on Irish Free Range farms. Tar.Aldarion, are you able to verify or provide solid information on what your mate is saying?

In a way, I think the yanks have it easy; the egg and dairy industry is riddled with abuse so it is very easy for any ethically minded vegetarian to take the plunge and go vegan. Here, it is much harder to put your finger on any sort of abuse in the dairy industry and FR eggs industry.
My uncle is a standard Irish dairy farmer and I know that his dairy cows are well looked after. They need to be because the dairy industry in this country is so unbelievably strict about milk standards that every cow needs to be fed and treated with attention. If you dont satisfy standards and inspections, the big milk companies simply wont send their nice shiny tankers around to buy your milk, simple as.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tar.Aldarion
It's harder to know when you are buying foods with egg in the recipe though.

This is a big issue for me. I think that when you believe, in principal, that it is acceptable to buy and eat eggs from a super market or wherever, you sort of let the flood gates open, and stop bothering to check the origin of eggs as part of a recipe. I get the mentality that "screw it, Im already eating eggs without really knowing what the term 'Free Range' actually means in practice; so whats the real difference if I eat this cake which contains eggs which were probably battery caged?"

As for my friends claims, it seems that 'outside at all in their life' thing seems true, which is disheartening, I can't really comment on conditions apart from that. Farms will vary, markets are usually a good place to get eggs and I imagine many reputable free range farms.


Cakes or sweets might be a big stumbling area I agree. never really eat cake, but when it's an ingredient in a food that I might eat a lot think emailing thand asking might be a good idea. I imagine for a lot of products it might be battery, as they may be cheaper etc.

Crumble Froo

hmmm. as a result of this thread, I e-mailed one of NZ's biggest animal rights organisations looking for info on free range eggs, to see if what Tar's friend was talking about was a reality/possibility re the eggs i eat.

the email i got back said that no, they would be subject to prosecution by the consumer rights people, but that ..

In egg production all male chicks hatched are killed on day one (either by gassing or instantaneous fragmentation). Even hens on free range farms do not live a normal lifespan – they are only productive enough for ‘farming’ for the first 18 months after which they are killed and replaced with younger more productive hens.

If you want to avoid any ‘killing’ of animals then being vegan is really the only option.

so yeah... looks like eggs will be leaving my diet soon enough..

Tar.Aldarion

Crumble Froo wrote: »

hmmm. as a result of this thread, I e-mailed one of NZ's biggest animal rights organisations looking for info on free range eggs, to see if what Tar's friend was talking about was a reality/possibility re the eggs i eat.

the email i got back said that no, they would be subject to prosecution by the consumer rights people, but that ..


so yeah... looks like eggs will be leaving my diet soon enough..

That will vary from country to county, ie that is in NZ, America would be the same or worse etc. Might be similar here, something to see. You can probably still get them at markets and things like we do at home.

CokaColumbo

Crumble Froo wrote: »

either by gassing or instantaneous fragmentation

Instantaneous fragmentation? That sounds ludicrously inhumane! I'm picturing a giant hammer crushing little chicks as they travel down a conveyer belt.

Tar.Aldarion

Um I think they pretty much jsut throw them into a grinder...

RogerYates

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Um I think they pretty much jsut throw them into a grinder...

Indeed they do: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090902/ap_on_go_ot/us_egg_hatchery_investigation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL2HZBJ37m0

RY

Absurdum

CokaColumbo wrote: »

Finally, what are your opinions, specifically, on Free Range Eggs?

I wouldn't eat my girlfriend's/wife's/sister's period either.

Sapsorrow

Absurdum wrote: »

I wouldn't eat my girlfriend's/wife's/sister's period either.

Man theres no need for saying sh*t like that no one wants to read it

Sapsorrow

RogerYates wrote: »

Indeed they do: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090902/ap_on_go_ot/us_egg_hatchery_investigation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL2HZBJ37m0

RY

I think the important point here is that as far as processed foods go we need to be seriously carefull about where the food was made and ingredients sourced as practices/standards will vary from country to country and i certainly want nothing to do with something so horrific. It would definately be easier to just go vegan or omit eggs at least as well as meat.

jape

Crumble foo/tar aldarion

That is widely known that even in the free range egg industry, the male baby chicks are shredded at birth because there is no use for them. Buying free range eggs funds that industry, which is why I gave up eggs altogether. It's not hard. And who knows, one day I might keep a hen or 2 out the back for their eggs :-D

CokaColumbo

jape wrote: »

Crumble foo/tar aldarion

That is widely known that even in the free range egg industry, the male baby chicks are shredded at birth because there is no use for them. Buying free range eggs funds that industry, which is why I gave up eggs altogether. It's not hard. And who knows, one day I might keep a hen or 2 out the back for their eggs :-D

Well its clearly not widely known, at least not in the Irish context. Do you have relevant evidence of this practise taking place in this country?

jape

CokaColumbo wrote: »

Well its clearly not widely known, at least not in the Irish context. Do you have relevant evidence of this practise taking place in this country?

It's standard practice in the egg (both caged & free range) industry, country is irrelevant. There's plenty of info on the internet. Just think about it for a minute. I would be more inclined to look for evidence that this does not happen here. Why would Irish companies reduce their profits by deviating from the industry's standard procedures ?

CokaColumbo

jape wrote: »

It's standard practice in the egg (both caged & free range) industry, country is irrelevant. There's plenty of info on the internet. Just think about it for a minute. I would be more inclined to look for evidence that this does not happen here. Why would Irish companies reduce their profits by deviating from the industry's standard procedures ?

When looking at agriculture in general, country is definitely relevant. Enormous differences exist between countries in areas like dairy, meat and eggs. If profit was the be all, end all of agriculture in this country, we would already have adopted all of the disgusting industrial practises which exist in countries like America.

I am not saying that you are wrong; in fact it makes sense...I dont however think the general assumption that chick-shredding exists in Ireland is enough here.

In a sort of perverted way, I kind of want the practise to exist here, so that I can find a solid reason for taking eggs out of my diet.