There is no acceptable proof of God for atheists

Soul Winner

Wicknight wrote: »

We not only know that praying could have evolved, we have a pretty good idea why it evolved in humans.

Praying is the end result the evolved ability of humans to communicate and to see human like agents in nature. We have a natural instinct to communicate with humans and non-humans (we talk to animals, despite rationally knowing they don't understand us).

We also have a very strong instinct to see a mind behind events in nature. It makes perfect sense then that humans would attempt to communicate with this mind in nature, particularly by asking it for stuff (praying) since we are much more likely to fall back on this instinct to see agency in nature when we are under stress (ie we need something to help us)

Animals understand many things. I tell my dog to go to bed and she goes to bed, I call her to go for a walk and she is straight up off the bed waiting for her lead to be put on her and so on. I can understand how communicating with people might have evolved over time and become more refined with time and I can even understand how communicating with Gods and spirits might have evolved too but I find it really hard to believe that the actual belief that the God you believe in is in fact actually existing in another dimension and knows how many hairs there are on your head to have evolved. Beliefs are things one establishes in one's life through the things one has heard, they do not evolve. For instance the belief that Jesus was the Son of God is only 2000 years old and blasted onto the stage of history, no evolution there. Christianity is not like other religions which made deities out of their founders hundred of years after their deaths. Jesus was believed to be the Son of God right form the get go. How do you explain that in evolutionary terms?

Wicknight wrote: »

How is believing in the Christian god counter productive from an evolutionary point of view?

Because the New Testament tells us that we should present ourselves to Him as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable unto God, which is our reasonable sacrifice seeing what He did for us. It conveys the picture of a person totally devoting him/herself to God daily. Where is the survival benefit of that if such a Being doesn't exist?

Wicknight wrote: »

Since when has feeling adequate and comfortable kept anyone alive?

I would guess loads of times. Look at all the millionaires and billionaires in the world. Do you think their sense of inadequacy is what drives them to be the success stories they are in their entrepreneurial endeavors? No, it is their positive outlook on life and their beleif in themselves that does that.

Wicknight wrote: »

Humans have a natural instinct to believe thing worst about themselves, and to believe others when they say the worst about them.

I could say the same in the other direction, humans have a natural instinct to think too much of themselves and need to be brought down a peg or two.

Wicknight wrote: »

A person may paint a picture and have 10 people say it is lovely but start bawling crying because 1 person hates it.

Again the opposite is also true, a person may draw a picture and have 10 people hate and 1 person love it and it will make their day.

Wicknight wrote: »

We have a natural tendency to over emphasis the negative things said about us and under emphasis the positive.

Again the opposite is also true. We can also get big headed when complimented.

Wicknight wrote: »

From an evolutionary point of view we do this to keep ourselves on our toes.

So why do the prideful and confident do so well in survival terms?

Wicknight wrote: »

L. Ron Hubbard put this to great use. The first thing you want to do if you want to start a successful religion is start telling people there is something wrong with them, because they will believe it.

Christianity tells people that God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosever believes in Him will inherit eternal life. That is putting a pretty high premium of worth on the target audience, that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Most Christians I know who came to Christianity didn't do so because Christianity told them they were sinners, they already knew that they were sinners because they had fell short of even their own standards of rightness at some point in their lives and couldn't free themselves of their guilt. When they heard the message of Christianity it just rang true for them and they latched onto it and God delivered them from their mental anguish. How can a Being who does not exist have the power to free people like this of their guilt? Which results in a phrase the Lord used: “Those who have been forgiven much, love much.” This is the real proof that God exists and anyone who doesn’t accept it is just being willfully ignorant for prideful and hateful reasons.

monosharp

Soul Winner wrote: »

For instance the belief that Jesus was the Son of God is only 2000 years old and blasted onto the stage of history, no evolution there. Christianity is not like other religions which made deities out of their founders hundred of years after their deaths. Jesus was believed to be the Son of God right form the get go. How do you explain that in evolutionary terms?

Our ancestors probably worshiped the sun or nature. Then they evolved them into personalities, Zeus, Apollo etc. Those beliefs changed over time Zeus (Greek) -> Jupiter (Roman).

To personify animals/nature is seen in every culture that has ever existed. When you personify them you give them human traits.

Many of these religions share traits which are seen to be 'sacred' in some respect. Virgin birth, raising the dead, walking on water, eternal life, curing the sick etc etc etc. These are not Christian inventions.

Look at the flood story in the Bible for example. There are similar accounts in other religions that existed long before Judaism. Is that a coincidence ?

The leap from worshiping the sun to worshiping Zeus to worshiping Yahweh to worshiping Jesus is actually quite straightforward.

Other religions made deities out of their founders hundreds of years after their deaths ?

Right. So as evidence of this, of course you will cite a collection of writings written by 'nobody knows who' about Jesus, the earliest dating to 50 years after his death.

Oh but you'll say the bible gives eyewitness accounts of Jesus' escapades. Well I can point you out at least a half dozen religious texts of other religions which claim to do the same for their leader.

Lets take the Buddha, Buddhism doesn't even believe in a deity and I can still use it. According to belief he was born from his mothers side, who just so happened to be a virgin. So right away at birth we have the supernatural sticking its nose in.

Because the New Testament tells us that we should present ourselves to Him as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable unto God, which is our reasonable sacrifice seeing what He did for us. It conveys the picture of a person totally devoting him/herself to God daily. Where is the survival benefit of that if such a Being doesn't exist?

The belief in survival after death of course, but thats not the point. You seem to be purposely making a false argument.

The above belief would of course serve no real physical world survival benefit but neither does music or art. There are far more factors that drive us then survival.

Christianity tells people that God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son,

Who just so happened to be immortal. I don't see the sacrifice here ? Crucifixion, while a terrible way to die is hardly the worst and I think you'll find many people will agree that there are far worse tortures and ways to go then Jesus experienced during his death and subsequent resurrection.

Jesus' suffering while terrible in the Biblical account would pale in comparison to some of the tortures people have really gone through in this world.

That is putting a pretty high premium of worth on the target audience, that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

People die everyday for many different reasons, some voluntarily, some not. What makes a soldiers self-sacrifice any less worthwhile then Jesus' ?

How can a Being who does not exist have the power to free people like this of their guilt?

I'm honestly surprised you used this as an argument.

There are any amount of people in many other religions who say the exact same thing. Do you believe in Krishna ? in the Buddha ?

Which results in a phrase the Lord used: “Those who have been forgiven much, love much.” This is the real proof that God exists and anyone who doesn’t accept it is just being willfully ignorant for prideful and hateful reasons.

I could say the exact same thing to you about Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Hindu, Paganism etc etc.

What makes them wrong ?

MrPudding

monosharp wrote: »

Who just so happened to be immortal. I don't see the sacrifice here ? Crucifixion, while a terrible way to die is hardly the worst and I think you'll find many people will agree that there are far worse tortures and ways to go then Jesus experienced during his death and subsequent resurrection.

Jesus' suffering while terrible in the Biblical account would pale in comparison to some of the tortures people have really gone through in this world.



People die everyday for many different reasons, some voluntarily, some not. What makes a soldiers self-sacrifice any less worthwhile then Jesus' ?

This is something I find strange. What is the big deal about allowing yourself to be killed safe in the knowledge that you will be alive again in three days?

MrP

monosharp

MrPudding wrote: »

This is something I find strange. What is the big deal about allowing yourself to be killed safe in the knowledge that you will be alive again in three days?

MrP

Me too. Especially when its meant to be such a huge sacrifice.

'Jesus died for us', Ok. What about the people who have died in war for other reasons ?

'God sacrificed his only son', Ok. Again, not exactly uncommon in history.

Zombrex

Soul Winner wrote: »

Jesus was believed to be the Son of God right form the get go. How do you explain that in evolutionary terms?

There might be a bit of misunderstanding here. I'm not (and I'm not sure the others were) saying that the concept of Jesus Christ, or even the concept of the Abrahmic god, "evolved"

What evolved was our instinct to see concepts like these as being probably real. It doesn't really matter the details of the specific religion (from the point of view of this argument, obviously it matters to you guys). The vast majority of religions follow a very similar partner, and we know that people are much more willing to accept as true certain properties of religions.

Soul Winner wrote: »

Christianity tells people that God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosever believes in Him will inherit eternal life. That is putting a pretty high premium of worth on the target audience, that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

So what Christianity tells us is

• we are wicked and sinful, a belief we are naturally predesposed to believe
• that there is a god out there who exists in nature - a belief we are naturally predisposed to believe
• that if we please this god he will help us avoid the consequences of our failings - a beilef we are naturally predisposed to believe

Again Christianity simply does what most religions do, tell you that there is something wrong with you but provide a solution through a supernatural agent.

We have evolved to believe things like this. It is the path of least resistance to our cognitive mind.

It is not particularly surprising that people are happy to believe this is true but offer up no evidence apart from that it makes sense to them.

Soul Winner wrote: »

Most Christians I know who came to Christianity didn't do so because Christianity told them they were sinners, they already knew that they were sinners because they had fell short of even their own standards of rightness at some point in their lives

Well yes, that is the point.

Christianity (along with other religions) tells people what they expect to hear, what they expect to be true.

They then do Wow, yeah, that makes sense. How weird

Soul Winner wrote: »

When they heard the message of Christianity it just rang true for them and they latched onto it and God delivered them from their mental anguish. How can a Being who does not exist have the power to free people like this of their guilt?

It doesn't, they freed themselves from the guilt by latching on to a system that confirmed for them a sub-conscious feelings.

This is very easy to do, to trigger in another person. Tricksters and Mediums use this all the time, tell a person their dead grandmother forgives them and you will get a euphoric out pouring from the person. And the medium gets paid often much more than asked.

It is very easy to manipulate people through guilt, as we naturally feel bad about ourselves and gravitate towards people or institutions who claim to be able to help us with that.

Soul Winner wrote: »

This is the real proof that God exists and anyone who doesn’t accept it is just being willfully ignorant for prideful and hateful reasons.

Under that logic no one in another religion has ever felt much better about themselves for understanding what is wrong with them and being forgiven for it. Which is obviously not true, most religions provide this "service", you just have to join the religion bizarrely enough.