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There is no acceptable proof of God for atheists

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    #182
    chozometroid
    Registered Users Posts: 626 ✭✭✭chozometroid


    Wicknight wrote: »
    A repeatable experiment would be a good start ... anyone got one of those ... anyone ... nope? ... didn't think so
    What sort of experiment? Who would be involved?


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    #183
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    maskofsanity wrote: »
    Yeah I get what your trying to say but are you sure your not a weed?

    I'm sure that to you I am just a weed, which comforts me enormously if you don't mind me saying :pac:


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    #184
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    I'm sure that to you I am just a weed, which comforts me enormously if you don't mind me saying :pac:

    Ahh quit being so negative:P,


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    #185
    monosharp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,981 ✭✭✭monosharp


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    If I’m wrong then I’m just a deluded fool, however if you’re wrong your really screwed.

    Well what if your wrong about the other thousands of religions out there ?

    Maybe the atheist position is the right one even if there is a god because wouldn't god or the gods be happier if we just remained neutral instead of choosing the wrong religion ?


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    #186
    monosharp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,981 ✭✭✭monosharp


    Malty_T wrote: »
    *Common Misconception*

    Actually that wouldn't really make a difference, Islam and Christianity (most forms) complement each other..

    Its been stated here a billion times that to be a christian (and get the subsequent benefits) you need to believe in Jesus Christ. Muslims, although they think Jesus was an OK guy, do not 'believe' in him.

    Are you saying I can be a Muslim and if Christianity is right I can still go to heaven ?


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    #187
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    monosharp wrote: »
    Its been stated here a billion times that to be a christian (and get the subsequent benefits) you need to believe in Jesus Christ. Muslims, although they think Jesus was an OK guy, do not 'believe' in him.

    Are you saying I can be a Muslim and if Christianity is right I can still go to heaven ?

    Pretty much...

    As far as I understand it works both ways,

    *correct me if I'm wrong*


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    #188
    monosharp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,981 ✭✭✭monosharp


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    If atheism can be defined as the belief that there is no God then that is as much a religious statement as any other religion's basic tenet of belief.

    Constantly repeating an argument already proven incorrect is not going to convince anyone.
    If it can be framed as a belief then it could easily become just another religion - the religion of no religion.

    This has been answered. If atheism is a faith then everything is a faith including maths.

    I don't 'believe' there is no god, I just have no belief that there is one.

    Maybe there is, maybe there are fairies, maybe we are all living inside a computer generated world on the planet of the amazons. I can't state 100% we aren't, I can just say its highly unlikely.

    I never said there 'is' no god, I only ever say I don't think there is a god or gods and there is no evidence either way.


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    #189
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    monosharp wrote: »
    Its been stated here a billion times that to be a christian (and get the subsequent benefits) you need to believe in Jesus Christ. Muslims, although they think Jesus was an OK guy, do not 'believe' in him.

    Just to clarify, I was under the impression that Muslims believed in Jesus and his ascension???:confused:

    *Methinks this is more suited for Islam forum*


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    #190
    maskofsanity
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭maskofsanity


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    I'm sure that to you I am just a weed, which comforts me enormously if you don't mind me saying :pac:

    Your not a weed to me because atheists dont believe in weeds if you get what im sayin


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    #191
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    monosharp wrote: »
    I don't 'believe' there is no god, I just have no belief that there is one.

    If you are actually going to argue against people who do believe in God and assert that they are wrong, then it very much does appear that you Believe that there is no god.


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    #192
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Malty_T wrote: »
    *Common Misconception*

    Actually that wouldn't really make a difference, Islam and Christianity (most forms) complement each other..

    There is a huge debate about it in Islam, but Surah 2 of the Qur'an claims that there is salvation for the People of the Book. It defines these people as Christians, Jews, and Sabians.

    Some say that this is only applicable to the Christians, Jews and Sabians that existed at the time of the Prophet Muhammad, others say that it is applicable for all Christians, Jews and Sabians.

    There was a discussion about this a while back on the Islam forum, so I'd recommend that you ask them for more information.

    However, in Christianity the means of salvation is through faith in the saving death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Islam denies that Jesus was even crucified.


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    #193
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    Wicknight wrote: »
    I am probably less screwed than you though because I'm banking on a god that prefers me to worship no god than worship the wrong god. You on the other hand, if you are wrong, have been worshiping the wrong god or a false god, and most human religions (including your own) consider that a big no no. Isn't it the worst crime in the Abrahamic religions?
    Saying that the Abrahamic God might not exist but that his rules do is a logical mistake.


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    #194
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Wicknight wrote: »
    I am probably less screwed than you though because I'm banking on a god that prefers me to worship no god than worship the wrong god. You on the other hand, if you are wrong, have been worshiping the wrong god or a false god, and most human religions (including your own) consider that a big no no. Isn't it the worst crime in the Abrahamic religions?

    This is a non-point. If the Abrahamic God does not even exist, Abrahamic standards won't be applicable.

    Hurín got there first :o


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    #195
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    If Islam turned out to be right I would have no truck telling Allah that I truly believed that Jesus was the Son of God. What can he say? That I was wrong?
    Well yes, and that you were worshiping him as a god when he was just a prophet and that you believed the Satanic lies of the New Testament authors who wrote that he claimed to be the Son of God when he didn't actually and that makes no sense because God already told you there is only one God. And you ignored his Muhammad when Muhammad tried to teach you the error of your ways.

    Why can't I say to God that I truly believed he didn't exist?
    Soul Winner wrote: »
    He can't say anything to Christians who worshiped Jesus as God because He never did anything to counteract the rise to Christianity.
    That is a bit of a silly excuse. He never did anything to counteract the rise of Hinduism or Tao either.


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    #196
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Húrin wrote: »
    Saying that the Abrahamic God might not exist but that his rules do is a logical mistake.

    Two points
    • it is a rule shared by other religions (as I already said)
    • Christians are always going on about how other religions are possibly imperfect representations of the true religion. Stands to reason it can go the other way and rules from Christianity could apply to the true religion, no?


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    #197
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Wicknight wrote: »
    • Christians are always going on about how other religions are possibly imperfect representations of the true religion. Stands to reason it can go the other way and rules from Christianity could apply to the true religion, no?

    Do we always go on about it?


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    #198
    maskofsanity
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭maskofsanity


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Two points
    • it is a rule shared by other religions (as I already said)
    • Christians are always going on about how other religions are possibly imperfect representations of the true religion. Stands to reason it can go the other way and rules from Christianity could apply to the true religion, no?
    the fact that these kind of issues divide the religious community speaks volumes on how much of it is based in reality. How do you figure out who's making stuff up?


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    #199
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    maskofsanity wrote: »
    the fact that these kind of issues divide the religious community speaks volumes on how much of it is based in reality. How do you figure out who's making stuff up?

    It's easy, no religion thinks they'r themselves making it up. That's up the believer and non believer to discern the truth. As both have biases, the truth will always be obscured. Doesn't mean we should stop searching though. :)


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    #200
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Do we always go on about it?

    Yeah it seems to be the standard response to the issue of the existence of other religions. It is easy to argue for since it is impossible to demonstrate either way.


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    #201
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    maskofsanity wrote: »
    the fact that these kind of issues divide the religious community speaks volumes on how much of it is based in reality. How do you figure out who's making stuff up?

    I figure they are all making stuff up. I've never seen any coherent argument for why one religion is true and the others are making it up, other than the silly ones already dealt with in this thread (Christianity is true because it has a resurrection, the others don't. QED :P)


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    #202
    monosharp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,981 ✭✭✭monosharp


    Húrin wrote: »
    If you are actually going to argue against people who do believe in God and assert that they are wrong, then it very much does appear that you Believe that there is no god.

    This will be the 4th time I have said this on this thread alone.

    I don't believe there is no god, I think its highly improbable that there is a god.

    I don't believe in the Christian god, I think its highly improbable that christianity is not just man-made.

    I don't believe 100% there is no god because I can't. Its not possible anymore then any of us can believe 100% that there are no fairies, gremlins, aliens, Roman Gods or mermaids.


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    #203
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    monosharp wrote: »
    I don't believe there is no god, I think its highly improbable that there is a god.

    Okay, but many different atheists have different views. Your view is not the only one that atheists have. Others genuinely don't believe there is a god.
    monosharp wrote: »
    I don't believe in the Christian god, I think its highly improbable that christianity is not just man-made.

    Right, that's fine. I think I would be pretty much the opposite, I would see it as improbable that Christianity was not man-made.
    monosharp wrote: »
    I don't believe 100% there is no god because I can't. Its not possible anymore then any of us can believe 100% that there are no fairies, gremlins, aliens, Roman Gods or mermaids.

    Some people do believe pretty much 100% if not 100% that there is no God.

    Belief is different from fact. I can't factually say that there is a God, I can believe there there is one based on indication though.

    The question that needs to be asked is this:
    What suggests to us that there is a God, or what suggests to us that there is no God?

    That is the best discussion we can do on whether or not God exists. So, what suggests to you that there is no God?


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    #204
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Some people do believe pretty much 100% if not 100% that there is no God.

    Belief is different from fact. I can't factually say that there is a God, I can believe there there is one based on indication though.

    The question that needs to be asked is this:
    What suggests to us that there is a God, or what suggests to us that there is no God?

    That is the best discussion we can do on whether or not God exists. So, what suggests to you that there is no God?

    I'm not one of those 100% ers either, in fact, at a guess I'd say there's little, if any.

    Suggestions that is there is no God, in short :

    Random Nature of the Universe.
    No physical evidence other than personal testimonies,
    Constant history of humanity of attributing the supernatural to things we cannot explain.


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    #205
    maskofsanity
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭maskofsanity


    Jakkass wrote: »
    So, what suggests to you that there is no God?
    A distinct absence of god in observable reality...


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    #206
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Well yes, and that you were worshiping him as a god when he was just a prophet and that you believed the Satanic lies of the New Testament authors who wrote that he claimed to be the Son of God when he didn't actually and that makes no sense because God already told you there is only one God. And you ignored his Muhammad when Muhammad tried to teach you the error of your ways.

    He'll have to condemn me then. What can I do but about the fact that Christianity rings truer to me than Islam? I'd have to admit I was wrong and take my licks should any be forthcoming. Even if there was never any Christianity I can't imagine I'd be attracted to Islam. It doesn't speak to my heart and I cannot relate to it. However Christianity does.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    Why can't I say to God that I truly believed he didn't exist?

    He knows your heart. He knows whether you are honest in what you say or not. He knows the personal reasons why you were turned off on the subject of religion and He knows if you hate Him or not. You've expressed a lot of that in these forums and He knows you reject the message of Christ as an unclean thing and He knows you put him on trial all the time. He wiped out all the Israelites over twenty years old in the Old Testament for the very same reason. Granted they at least seen all the great wonders He did and they still murmured. He might go easy on you but I wouldn't bank on it :D

    Wicknight wrote: »
    That is a bit of a silly excuse. He never did anything to counteract the rise of Hinduism or Tao either.

    Oh yes He did. He died in order to inaugurate Christianity :D


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    #207
    maskofsanity
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭maskofsanity


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    Oh yes He did. He died in order to inaugurate Christianity :D
    Yep gods one man crack suicide squad! That showed em :confused::P


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    #208
    Morbert
    Registered Users Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    I'm feeling bored so I'll just dump my two thousand cents here about what proof would be.

    Firstly, I don't think it's fruitful to argue that atheism is a lack of belief in God as opposed to a belief that there is no God. If we have some proposition X ('There is a God'), then atheists reject that proposition, but they accept the proposition ~X ('It is not true that there is a God'). If atheism was merely the rejection of X, then there would be no need for the 'agnostic' adjective in the phrase 'agnostic atheists' which I interpret as 'We accept the proposition ~X, but we also acknowledge our inability to know for sure'. Similarly, I see it as unhelpful to claim atheists have faith in the proposition ~X, due to conflations of the word faith mentioned in earlier posts.

    I don't expect to see proof of God in any philosophy or science journal (I am of course using the word 'proof' in the tradition sense of affirmation by evidence rather than the mathematical sense, where it means an impeccable argument). Any proof would probably be historical or personal. I don't actually have an issue with personal evidence, provided it is only used to personally affirm a belief in God. A deep personal experience would be enough to convert me, though I would not expect my experience to convert others. Because of this, it's very hard to say what would constitute proof, because it largely depends on personal incredulity, but proof would be possible.

    tl;dr: Atheists will differ on what it would take to convince them, but atheism itself does not automatically exclude convincing.


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    #209
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    He'll have to condemn me then. What can I do but about the fact that Christianity rings truer to me than Islam?

    What do I do about the fact that I find your god horrible and am thankful that I don't think he actually exists?

    God will have to condemn me as well.

    We both end up condemned if we are wrong. As I said I've a slightly slimmer chance of that than you because I've backed no horse rather than backing the wrong one, but we will probably both end up in some eternal punishment after death if supernatural deities do actually exist, since odd are it isn't going to you be your one simply going on statistics.

    Makes me glad to be an atheist to be honest. :p


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    #210
    chozometroid
    Registered Users Posts: 626 ✭✭✭chozometroid


    Wicknight wrote: »
    I figure they are all making stuff up. I've never seen any coherent argument for why one religion is true and the others are making it up, other than the silly ones already dealt with in this thread (Christianity is true because it has a resurrection, the others don't. QED :P)
    You don't bother reading replies? You completely misunderstood what I wrote, thinking that I said that all the qualities of the Christian God are proof of a god existing. You were totally off. I replied:
    Originally Posted by chozometroid
    And as far as the evidence for any god goes, unless every god you're considering is omnipotent, omnipresent, loving, forgiving, created all life, has personal relationships with man, died for the sins of mankind, promises an eternity with Him if we believe in Him, doesn't say we'll evolve into gods, doesn't say we reincarnate, then they simply will not share the same evidence as the Christian God.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    Are you seriously claiming that the Christian God has to be the true god because god would only fit the criteria of the Christian God?

    Just look at the list you just gave me of what a god has to be in order for it to exist. Does it sound familiar?
    :confused:
    I guess you missed the point. Read again.

    I guess you are the inventor of the straw man.


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    #211
    monosharp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,981 ✭✭✭monosharp


    Jakkass wrote: »
    That is the best discussion we can do on whether or not God exists. So, what suggests to you that there is no God?

    Nothing suggests it. The same way nothing suggests that there is a god.

    There is no evidence for or against a god or gods.


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