To all the people who marched today with "No to Lisbon" leaflets/signs.

I think it's a disgrace.

Some of the leaflets that were handed out about 'one world government' etc were unbelievable. We're trying to have a rational march to save this country from the catastrophe that is NAMA, and you're making everyone marching look like absolute lunatics.

Secondly, to all the SF people who had signs saying "No to NAMA, No to Lisbon".. The no to NAMA part was fine, thats what we were marching about. But to bring Lisbon into it is totally irresponsible. Every single picture in the papers tomorrow will probably have some sort of anti-Lisbon sign in it and every single 'yes' or undecided voter that see's them will think "I don't like NAMA but I don't want to march against Lisbon" and hundreds of thousands of people will be put off.

All it showed me was that your own agenda was far more important than the welfare of this country - just like FF always put their agenda ahead of the country, you are now no better than them. NAMA is the issue at hand, and I would PLEAD with you that you keep your own anti-Lisbon agendas out of it.

I said it to Sean Kearns (I think) at the end of the rally too and I will be emailing SF about their behaviour. There was at least 4 anti-Lisbon signs behind the heads of everyone who spoke at the end.


So PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE keep such a divisive issue as Lisbon out of a protest which seeks to UNITE everyone in the saving of our country from absolute robbery.



I would ask that this thread not be joined with the march thread as I feel this is one of the most important issues that needs to be sorted and I would like as many people as possible to see it.




Thank you for reading,

Ronan McDonnell

andrewdeerpark

While I have no direct involvement in today's march this "double no" agenda being pushed by SF and others is deplorable.

Well said Rojomcdojo keep the focus of today's march to NAMA as that is todays important issue.

Shame on those Lisbon No hijackers, as I am personally no to NAMA and yes to Lisbon.

I would also ask if someone could post this on politics.ie because the more people that see it the better.

I am unable to register at the moment.

marco murphy

Big deal :rolleyes:

I would also ask if someone could post this on politics.ie because the more people that see it the better.

I am unable to register at the moment.

Whats your agenda?

Perestroika

Perestroika wrote: »

Big deal :rolleyes:

So, as a Sinn Fein member you're saying that you don't care if hundreds of thousands of people are put off marching against NAMA as long as you get to advertise 'No to Lisbon'?


I have no agenda, at this point in time I could care less which way Lisbon went (We can deal with that later). NAMA is the robbery of tax payers money - mine and YOURS too - to bail out private investors, developers and bank officials who, lets face it, will remain extremely wealthy at our great expense.

Mario007

i've got an account on politics.ie and so i'll replicate your post, though i am in no way involved with the protest.

Kev_ps3

eh, people can have whatever that want on their banners ffs..

Mario007

Mario007 wrote: »

i've got an account on politics.ie and so i'll replicate your post, though i am in no way involved with the protest.

Thanks for that. I'm not involved in the organisation or anything like that, I was merely an attendee of the march making an observation.

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

eh, people can have whatever that want on their banners ffs..

You have 100% missed the point of my post.

Mario007

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Thanks for that. I'm not involved in the organisation or anything like that, I was merely an attendee of the march making an observation.

no prob, you've got people complaining over the post there too...but then again thats to be expected.

nice observation btw! well done!

Euro_Kraut

Its really bad form to hijack a protest. Not 100% unexpected, but shameful nonetheless. If people wanted to have a No to Lisbon march they should have organised it themsleve and not piggybacked on someone elses march.

bleg

What are you people rabbling about now?

Colonel Sanders

Most of the chants were about cutbacks.

I am staunchly anti NAMA and went along to support the 'No to NAMA' message, not No to Lisbon or anything else

bleg

The amount of men with beards at that march was a disgrace. Do they want people to think they're trade unionists?

marco murphy

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

So, as a Sinn Fein member you're saying that you don't care if hundreds of thousands of people are put off marching against NAMA as long as you get to advertise 'No to Lisbon'?


I have no agenda, at this point in time I could care less which way Lisbon went (We can deal with that later). NAMA is the robbery of tax payers money - mine and YOURS too - to bail out private investors, developers and bank officials who, lets face it, will remain extremely wealthy at our great expense.

Wow, were hundreds put off? Did you count?
Why are you putting so much effort into this if you really think its having a negative impact on the No to NAMA campaign?

Personally, I'm passionately campaigning against Lisbon, I will use every opportunity to campaign for a No vote, even at NAMA marches.

Perestroika

Perestroika wrote: »

Wow, were hundreds put off? Did you count?
Why are you putting so much effort into this if you really think its having a negative impact on the No to NAMA campaign?

Personally, I'm passionately campaigning against Lisbon, I will use every opportunity to campaign for a No vote, even at NAMA marches.

So then let's say that 'yes' voters aren't put off by the massive anti-Lisbon presence, and instead they decide to carry their own 'YES TO LISBON' signs in the next march.
Do you think the true message of the march will get through?

Or do you even care about NAMA and what it means for Ireland?

Like I said, no better than FF. "Our agenda ahead of whats best for Ireland". Disgusting.

thebman

They are Sinn Fein supporters, they aren't good at following rules.

RedPlanet

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

So then let's say that 'yes' voters aren't put off by the massive anti-Lisbon presence, and instead they decide to carry their own 'YES TO LISBON' signs in the next march.
Do you think the true message of the march will get through?

Or do you even care about NAMA and what it means for Ireland?

Like I said, no better than FF. "Our agenda ahead of whats best for Ireland". Disgusting.

By saying No to Lisbon we are keeping Ireland at the heart of the EU. We'll keep our vetos and our current voting strength. The Yes side seeks to diminish ireland's representation in Europe.
I was at the march.
I support the No to NAMA and No Lisbon slogans.
These 2 policies stem from the same government, the same crowd of ****.

If you don't like it, its your problem.

hobochris

+1 to what the op said.

I collected 11 separate pieces of literature from papers to booklets to fliers most of which had a hidden agenda and had very little to do with why we were there.

Two girls even had a sign saying "Save our ladies hospital" Whats that got to do with the No to nama campaign?

I was very disappointed that certain groups appeared to promote their own agenda despite being asked not too by the organizers.

walrusgumble

thebman wrote: »

They are Sinn Fein supporters, they aren't good at following rules.

well, according to the many tribunals we have witnessed in the past 15 years, a small minority in other political parties seem to have problems following the rules, ethics etc.

i agree with op here though, the issue of lisbon should not have being involved. still ya gotta hand it too them, brass neck and political opportuntism or what.

walrusgumble

RedPlanet wrote: »

By saying No to Lisbon we are keeping Ireland at the heart of the EU. We'll keep our vetos and our current voting strength. The Yes side seeks to diminish ireland's representation in Europe.
I was at the march.
I support the No to NAMA and No Lisbon slogans.
These 2 policies stem from the same government, the same crowd of ****.

If you don't like it, its your problem.

i voted no in lisbon the last time round, mainly i was not happy with additional areas being sent over to qmv as oppose to veto (i was not concerned with taxation etc because the treaty, to me was clear that it was not included in lisbon---- this time) i am happy to see the protocols. i can't remember the union ever rescinding similar protocols on member states, without their consent, so i think i can trust the union. if i can ask a genuine and frank answer, do the irish have something really to fear, what?

but, one positive note on lisbon, as seen in the draft constitution: do people not think that its a great idea that national parliaments will now get a chance to have a say or recommendation when legislation in brussels is being drafted?

i remember, during the constitutional debate, i checked the european barometer report (see www.europa.eu) and i believe that many of the reports had shown the ireland was regularily in the top 4 when it came to acceptance and co-operation and voting yes to various work. (pitty about the dodgy history with implementing the directives on time and in an effective manner)

can anyone recall at least 3-4 irish meps came home and told the nation that there was a certain issue in parliament that they were not happy with? (for sitting meps at the last election, should that not have being a core issue and what they achieved? - did that really come up?)

the lisbon issue is completely different issue to what op raised, so sorry for sidetracking. but, to briefly return to lisbon (or another thread) can some clever clogs pick out 5-8 different scenerios, with exception to taxation, family rights etc when the irish in either the council or parliament voted against something but that issue succeeded and ireland had to put up with it. where there no offer of protocols as seen in some eu legislation regarding third country nationals

do you really believe that a majority of irish people really would go out of their way by voting and campaigning for a yes vote in order to diminish the country's standing in europe? what are the alternatives now that there is now over 25 states?

(the tone here is not an indication or a plea for yes or no. it is t ask questions that i am uncertain about and on the fence this time)

Stark

It's a disgrace that people hijacked such an important protest for their own selfish interests, but not at all unexpected. It's why I for one stayed away from the protest (I'm Pro Lisbon and want to stay well away from any anti-Lisbon protests). Well this is Ireland and the selfishness doesn't stop at the top. When people see the footage of the protest on the news, they'll see just another crowd of cranks and nutjobs and the ordinary Irish person will be lost in the noise once again.

walrusgumble wrote: »

(the tone here is not an indication or a plea for yes or no. it is t ask questions that i am uncertain about and on the fence this time)

Some good questions. You should start a thread with them in the European Union subforum. There'll be plenty of people who'll be happy to answer them.

thebman

RedPlanet wrote: »

By saying No to Lisbon we are keeping Ireland at the heart of the EU. We'll keep our vetos and our current voting strength. The Yes side seeks to diminish ireland's representation in Europe.
I was at the march.
I support the No to NAMA and No Lisbon slogans.
These 2 policies stem from the same government, the same crowd of ****.

If you don't like it, its your problem.

They are distinct issues. By trying to hijack the protest both messages are lost and its all for nothing TBH.

One of my lecturers once said you should try to get one point across in a lecture, focus on one thing and people will be much more likely to remember it.

If you focus on multiple things in a protest, people just think well which is it for and then say to friends that there was a protest but they don't know what for as there seemed to be all sorts of protesters at it protesting about anything and word doesn't spread.

Joey the lips

This is very funny. Its not often you see a protesting thread giving out about someone else protesting.

But let me see if i understand. You disagree with Sinn Fein because the say no to nama and no to lisbon.? I am write yes!

Well done sinn fein! If you cant get them on one you might get them on the other!

RedPlanet

RedPlanet wrote: »

By saying No to Lisbon we are keeping Ireland at the heart of the EU. We'll keep our vetos and our current voting strength. The Yes side seeks to diminish ireland's representation in Europe.
I was at the march.
I support the No to NAMA and No Lisbon slogans.
These 2 policies stem from the same government, the same crowd of ****.

If you don't like it, its your problem.

That's just sheer arrogance, the same arrogance that you would slate the government for having. If I don't like it you're right, it is my problem. It's my problem, it's your problem and every single person in the countries problem when NAMA gets passed because the message is hijacked and we're unable to get a coherent point across to the government.

Like I said, all you're doing is turning 'Yes' voters and the undecided voters off attending future protests. Are you satisfied with that result? Because it hurts the 'No to NAMA' movement as a whole. Although from every reply like yours so far I've gathered that you really don't care about our message. So why hijack a NAMA march? Why not have your own?

Tbh I seem to be getting the same responses here. They are:

1 - I went and didn't like the 'No to Lisbon sentiment'
2 - I didn't go because I don't want to be associated with the "Other messages" that were being pimped at the march
3 - I don't give a damn if we turn people away from the march because our message is more important.


Now, like I said - I couldn't care less about Lisbon at the moment. I feel that NAMA is far more important to us as a country. But I can understand why people get so worked up about it.
That was my whole point in the OP. People get so worked up about it that all it can do is HURT the 'No to NAMA' campaign being associated with EITHER side.



But you obviously don't really care about NAMA, do you?

reabhloid_rua

Hi all,

Firstly, I am Dublin Sinn Féin's main organiser.
I'm sorry our presence at today's march has offended some of you because of our No to Lisbon placards.

Let me clarify some things first.
The people's union invited us along to todays event many weeks ago, hijacking it was not an issue. Initially they said there was to be no political banners etc and we agreed. From last week on the PU were in contact with us again and our friends in the PBPA pretty much panicking that they weren't going to get a crowd from the march and asked us to pull out all the stops to get people on the street.

We agreed, of course, to help. At this point it was ok to bring along political placards etc. This march today, was 90% made up of left wing organisations. large numbers from from Sinn Féin were present, SWP, SP, IRSP, CPI, WSM, members of trade unions and many more. In fact the march was made largely up of No to Lisbon campaigners.

Our placards are not designed to offend anyone, and I would like to assure the OP of that.
If you wish to contact Sinn Féin Átha Cliath direct, you can do so at dublinsinnfein[at]gmail[dot]com

Well done to everyone who marched today and made a solid gesture to the government.

I look forward to contributing to further debates with you guys.

Slán

reabhloid_rua

reabhloid_rua wrote: »

Hi all,

Firstly, I am Dublin Sinn Féin's main organiser.
I'm sorry our presence at today's march has offended some of you because of our No to Lisbon placards.

Let me clarify some things first.
The people's union invited us along to todays event many weeks ago, hijacking it was not an issue. Initially they said there was to be no political banners etc and we agreed. From last week on the PU were in contact with us again and our friends in the PBPA pretty much panicking that they weren't going to get a crowd from the march and asked us to pull out all the stops to get people on the street.

We agreed, of course, to help. At this point it was ok to bring along political placards etc. This march today, was 90% made up of left wing organisations. large numbers from from Sinn Féin were present, SWP, SP, IRSP, CPI, WSM, members of trade unions and many more. In fact the march was made largely up of No to Lisbon campaigners.

Our placards are not designed to offend anyone, and I would like to assure the OP of that.
If you wish to contact Sinn Féin Átha Cliath direct, you can do so at dublinsinnfein[at]gmail[dot]com

Well done to everyone who marched today and made a solid gesture to the government.

I look forward to contributing to further debates with you guys.

Slán

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I just want to ask if you see where I'm coming from? That the 'No to Lisbon' placards will put a lot of people off and can only hurt the 'No to NAMA' message, which I'm sure you'll agree is of the utmost importance at the moment. We need to send a clear decisive message to the government about NAMA, and I certainly don't think that's what we did today.

If anything, today ensured that the turn out next week wont reach it's full potential. Like I said to Sean at the end of the march, if I was to get 20 people to come, after seeing pictures of todays march at least 10 wouldn't want to come.
They would be anti-NAMA but pro-Lisbon.

Lisbon is such a divisive issue, that I feel we're in very dangerous territory having it associated with the anti-NAMA movement.
Based on the latest polls, I would say that at least half of the people at the march were pro-Lisbon - yet they kept Lisbon out of it - but were effectively in an anti-Lisbon march.

Like I said I'm not actively supporting any side as far as Lisbon is concerned at the moment as I feel that NAMA should take precedent right now.

stepbar

Ah Lisbon ain't all that bad.....

stepbar

From what I'm reading, the PU march today was a bit of a sham. And as expected it turned out to be a march for all and sundry. It doesn't suprise me the Shinners were asked to drum up a bit of support seeing that they are the party that practically protests against everything. I mean does Sinn Fein stand for anything?

flamez911

reabhloid_rua wrote: »

Hi all,

Firstly, I am Dublin Sinn Féin's main organiser.
I'm sorry our presence at today's march has offended some of you because of our No to Lisbon placards.

Let me clarify some things first.
The people's union invited us along to todays event many weeks ago, hijacking it was not an issue. Initially they said there was to be no political banners etc and we agreed. From last week on the PU were in contact with us again and our friends in the PBPA pretty much panicking that they weren't going to get a crowd from the march and asked us to pull out all the stops to get people on the street.

We agreed, of course, to help. At this point it was ok to bring along political placards etc. This march today, was 90% made up of left wing organisations. large numbers from from Sinn Féin were present, SWP, SP, IRSP, CPI, WSM, members of trade unions and many more. In fact the march was made largely up of No to Lisbon campaigners.

Our placards are not designed to offend anyone, and I would like to assure the OP of that.
If you wish to contact Sinn Féin Átha Cliath direct, you can do so at dublinsinnfein[at]gmail[dot]com

Well done to everyone who marched today and made a solid gesture to the government.

I look forward to contributing to further debates with you guys.

Slán

Thanks for getting in touch- I'm pretty undecided on Lisbon but I still didn't like the volume of anti-Lisbon posters that you guys brought along- of course it's okay to have some, especially if you're bringing a good proportion of the guys, but it would be nice if at least half the posters were just NAMA-focused at an anti-NAMA protest. It's fine if you want to have an anti-Lisbon protest, but I'm sure you'll agree that NAMA is a huge issue confronting our country and deserves to have marches which are purely against it.

is_that_so

What did people expect? Any anti-government type march will attract the usual suspects who will happily exploit the occasion for their own agenda. As long as the message gets across there is little you can do about others protesting about something else. Incidentally can anyone explain why there appears to have been an enormous discrepancy between the "expected" numbers(50K on RTE site earlier today) and the numbers who actually showed up. It does give the impression of delusion and misrepresented the level of opposition to NAMA.

Daftendirekt

reabhloid_rua wrote: »

The people's union invited us along to todays event many weeks ago, hijacking it was not an issue. Initially they said there was to be no political banners etc and we agreed. From last week on the PU were in contact with us again and our friends in the PBPA pretty much panicking that they weren't going to get a crowd from the march and asked us to pull out all the stops to get people on the street.

We agreed, of course, to help. At this point it was ok to bring along political placards etc. This march today, was 90% made up of left wing organisations. large numbers from from Sinn Féin were present, SWP, SP, IRSP, CPI, WSM, members of trade unions and many more. In fact the march was made largely up of No to Lisbon campaigners.

None of which explains why you felt it was okay to hijack an anti-NAMA protest.

The fact that 'the march was made largely up of No to Lisbon campaigners' is utterly irrelevant. I feel confident in saying there were probably plenty of Yes to Lisbon campaigners there as well. These were people who had agreed to march under a banner of opposition to NAMA.

In displaying your anti-Lisbon signs, you are not only attempting to portray the march as an anti-Lisbon one (and misrepresenting the position of any Yes voters attending), but you're also diluting the message of the protest, which was 'No to NAMA'.

Thanks to you and anyone who brought their 'No to Lisbon, No to NAMA' signs, the no to NAMA protesters will be lumped in with Cóir and their ilk whether they want to be or not, and possibly dismissed as cranks by potential allies who didn't know what the march was actually about.