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Blatant Lies From Both Sides
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Because we're not voting for or against Europe? Although, the big parties would have us believe we are. It *might* backfire on them though considering the change in attitudes towards immigration and migrant workers of late though.How the hell is Vote Yes for Europe a lie? Seriously, it's a bad slogan but that's it, just a slogan it makes no factual claims about anything!Nesf wrote:Vote Yes for Recovery is nonsense all right but you could patch together an argument to support it
Absolute nonsense, although I think one would be harder pressed to patch together an argument to support the statement than not.Nesf wrote:There is an enormous difference between nonsense like "Vote Yes for Recovery" and "Vote No for Freedom" type slogans which while a bit silly can be backed up by a semi-argument and something like the Cóir's pure lies about factual matters like the minimum wage. We cannot completely rule in or rule out Recovery being boosted by a Yes vote while we can completely rule out the minimum wage point that Cóir are making.
Yes but again, Coir are a bunch of religious nutjobs who shouldn't be afforded the attention they seek. The same cannot be said about FF, FG and to a lesser extent Labour (I've yet to see their posters fwiw). How the Government and their main opposition parties treat the public should certainly be watched. If I were to base my vote in the next General purely on the behaviour we're witnessing now, and also over the past few months, from the bigger parties, I would most likely spoil my vote as I believe it to be disgraceful and completely unbecoming of parties who wish to be taken seriously, particularly in the stages of Europe.Nesf wrote:Edit: Also, this isn't about the text of the treaty but it is about the consequences of a No, which do exist, and being intangibles are very hard to pin down as complete fabrications. Similar to nonsense about a No vote having no consequences which is rolled out by the opposite side.
The worst thing about a No vote is that it leaves us in "unchartered territory", however if one is opposed to a further politically integrated union then a Yes to Lisbon itself will leave us in a form of "unchartered territory".0 -
Because we're not voting for or against Europe? Although, the big parties would have us believe we are. It *might* backfire on them though considering the change in attitudes towards immigration and migrant workers of late though.
The slogan does not say that we're voting for or against Europe, it could easily be read as "Vote Yes, it's the best choice for us and Europe" etc.Absolute nonsense, although I think one would be harder pressed to patch together an argument to support the statement than not.
Not really, you just need to show that a No vote might negatively affect Ireland's recovery, which isn't that hard to do.Yes but again, Coir are a bunch of religious nutjobs who shouldn't be afforded the attention they seek. The same cannot be said about FF, FG and to a lesser extent Labour (I've yet to see their posters fwiw). How the Government and their main opposition parties treat the public should certainly be watched. If I were to base my vote in the next General purely on the behaviour we're witnessing now, and also over the past few months, from the bigger parties, I would most likely spoil my vote as I believe it to be disgraceful and completely unbecoming of parties who wish to be taken seriously, particularly in the stages of Europe.
Yes but my point is that we're talking about factal lies with Cóir, not overreaching in slogans like with FF and FG. It's impossible to point to a book of law and show where FF or FG are lying, you can do that with Cóir.The worst thing about a No vote is that it leaves us in "unchartered territory", however if one is opposed to a further politically integrated union then a Yes to Lisbon itself will leave us in a form of "unchartered territory".
If you're opposed to further integrated union then you are willing to accept a two speed Europe where we along with Britain and a few others abstain while the others integrate further?0 -
The slogan does not say that we're voting for or against Europe, it could easily be read as "Vote Yes, it's the best choice for us and Europe" etc.
I believe most would take the statement literally. "Vote Yes for Europe". Come on, how can you claim that doesn't insinuate that voting yes = for Europe and voting no = against Europe.nesf wrote:Not really, you just need to show that a No vote might negatively affect Ireland's recovery, which isn't that hard to do.
"Patching together" a statement indeed. Although, I would be of the opinion that excuses shouldn't have to be dreamt up to cover widely published propaganda by the mainstream parties & opposition.Nesf wrote:Yes but my point is that we're talking about factal lies with Cóir, not overreaching in slogans like with FF and FG. It's impossible to point to a book of law and show where FF or FG are lying, you can do that with Cóir.
Well, isn't that convenient?Nesf wrote:If you're opposed to further integrated union then you are willing to accept a two speed Europe where we along with Britain and a few others abstain while the others integrate further?
Absolutely, if a "two speed" EU came with increased flexibility as to what we opt in/opt out of, such as Lisbon, Nice etc, then I can certainly see the benefits of being in such a system. It could even be optimal.
Indeed it may have its consequences, however I'm so vehemently opposed to such possibilities as Muslim member states that I'd certainly be willing to consider them.0 -
I believe most would take the statement literally. "Vote Yes for Europe". Come on, how can you claim that doesn't insinuate that voting yes = for Europe and voting no = against Europe.
Of course it insinuates it, it wouldn't be much use as a political slogan if it didn't paint the opposite side as bad now would it?Well, isn't that convenient?
Yeah, it's the difference between blatant lies and the normal political bull****.0 -
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Of course it insinuates it, it wouldn't be much use as a political slogan if it didn't paint the opposite side as bad now would it?
It's not really implying much else though, is it? Taken literally, I should say.
Vote Yes for No Rape would be an interesting one.Nesf wrote:Yeah, it's the difference between blatant lies and the normal political bull****.
Personally I see the whole lot as blatant lies. Lisbon will not directly aid Ireland's recovery from the economic downturn, so implying that voting Yes on it will is a lie as far as I'm concerned. Implied, indeed, but nevertheless present.0 -
:rolleyes:P. Breathnach wrote: »Is this today's line by the no campaign? "Let's frighten them with Turkey."0 -
Who are Fianna Fail and Fine Gael and why should we listen to them? Well, I believe that's self explanatory.
If you can't see the difference between the two main political parties in this country telling blatant lies and scare-mongering on almost every lamppost I've passed recently, and a fringe group of nutcases, then I believe the point is lost.
We don't need to listen to them, we could listen to most of the unions (since you're so worried about workers rights), our labour organisations, our academics, our media, our business organisations, the church etc, remember all those people that are calling for a Yes vote. Or we could read the treaty and see for ourselves.
The Yes posters are not blatant lies, they may be rubbish slogans that don't explain why any of those things could happen. However those things they claim could happen. No don't get me wrong I don't like those posters either. One other thing to remember is we did elect our politicians as bad as they are but I don't recall anyone electing Cóir.To be quite honest, and hopefully not to derail the thread, this government is one of the very reasons I will be voting No. Not because of the damage they've done to this country, that is a point in itself which will be reserved for the General, but because should we vote Yes, where do we draw the line?
We draw the line whenever it goes further than we the Irish people are willing to go. We still need a referendum if our government or the EU wants to take things further. But if I get this right you want to vote No now because of a hypothetical issue which could arise in the future which we can vote No to then or just reject at the negotiation stages. I don't know what to say to that, but did you really think it through?If, for example, 6 months after it is passed the EU proposes to harmonise corporation tax in the member states and it is put to vote and we say No, will we just be made vote on it again?
The EU has no say over direct taxes like corporation tax or income tax. But if they wanted to we'd have to vote on a new treaty for that which we'd reject so your whole point is nonsense.I don't believe this current Government can represent us in Europe, to stand up for our country and its citizens whatsoever. Nice was one thing, here we are yet again with Lisbon and what will we have to deal with in the future? Who knows, but I don't like the direction the EU in itself is headed and consequently do not like the tasks that may be put before us in the not so distant future by the institution.
You or I have no idea what we'll have to deal with in the future. So what we should do is vote now based on the now and then vote in the future based on the situation then. It's pretty simple. Since we the Irish people have the power we don't need to fear.
I'm amused by your whole line as if we can be forced to do something, we can't it's as simple as that nor have the EU even tried.If voting Yes in the hope that it magically brings about the recovery of our Economy (where voting No wouldn't) is considered valid, then voting No in anticipation of nasty surprises from Europe is equally as valid imo.
Voting yes improves the running of the EU and the potential success of the EU which in turn benefits Ireland. And really your whole 'assume the sky is gonna fall' line is just rubbish.0 -
We don't need to listen to them, we could listen to most of the unions (since you're so worried about workers rights), our labour organisations, our academics, our media, our business organisations, the church etc, remember all those people that are calling for a Yes vote. Or we could read the treaty and see for ourselves.
You've missed my point entirely.The Yes posters are not blatant lies, they may be rubbish slogans that don't explain why any of those things could happen. However those things they claim could happen. No don't get me wrong I don't like those posters either. One other thing to remember is we did elect our politicians as bad as they are but I don't recall anyone electing Cóir.
Yes but a lot of things could happen, I find it appalling that the main parties have to resort to threatening, albeit veiled threats, instead of selling the treaty in a positive manner.We draw the line whenever it goes further than we the Irish people are willing to go. We still need a referendum if our government or the EU wants to take things further. But if I get this right you want to vote No now because of a hypothetical issue which could arise in the future which we can vote No to then or just reject at the negotiation stages. I don't know what to say to that, but did you really think it through?
The EU has no say over direct taxes like corporation tax or income tax. But if they wanted to we'd have to vote on a new treaty for that which we'd reject so your whole point is nonsense.
Oh, how easy it is to say that now. Yet, here we are again voting on a treaty that the Irish people have said no to, regardless or reasons for doing so. Not only that, but our own Government is filling our streets with non-issue, BS propaganda in an effort to force the damn thing through.You or I have no idea what we'll have to deal with in the future. So what we should do is vote now based on the now and then vote in the future based on the situation then. It's pretty simple. Since we the Irish people have the power we don't need to fear.
We should be voting in the interests of now and the future, not merely for now.I'm amused by your whole line as if we can be forced to do something, we can't it's as simple as that nor have the EU even tried.
Almost as soon as the results of the first referendum were published, EU leaders said "they'll have to vote again", before even considering the issues the voters had with the text.
Now we're back again to do so, only with more veiled threats this time as now it's not merely the No side doing so.
I'm more concerned that we more than likely do not currently have a party that can represent this country in the EU and stand up for it's citizen's.Voting yes improves the running of the EU and the potential success of the EU which in turn benefits Ireland. And really your whole 'assume the sky is gonna fall' line is just rubbish.
Wow, congrats on absolutely not getting the point. Twice in the one post, I think I'll just avoid engaging in future to be quite honest. Good luck.0 -
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Rb it's like we're talking different languages. I really don't see your problem.
As I keep saying I don't like how the Yes campaign is being run, I really don't. But I can still see the difference between bad advertising slogans, that could happen and blatant unashamed lies. What is it with you No people, hardly any of you gave a damn about scaremongering or lies until you felt that the Yes side were doing it. Even though that's how the No campaign got the win the last time.
I'm sorry but most of what you're saying is rubbish.0 -
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Daftendirekt wrote: »I'm not talking about posters specifically here, but rather the campaigns in general. Both of which, are failures.
The job of the No campaigners is to highlight the drawbacks of the treaty, and anything that might not be in the best interest of the Irish people. In this, they have failed utterly, instead resorting to lies and threats, completely unrelated to the text of the treaty. I have yet to see a single factual point made by the No campaign that I found jarring.
The job of the Yes campaigners is to highlight the benefits of the treaty, and explain why the document as a whole is in the best interests of the Irish people. In this, they have also failed utterly, instead resorting to wishy-washy slogans and catchphrases about how great Europe is, completely unrelated to the text of the treaty. I'm still waiting to hear the government put forward the Citizens' Initiative as an advantage of voting Yes to Lisbon,
Personally, I find both campaigns almost equally distasteful. The No campaign for obvious reasons (its lies), and the Yes campaign for slightly different reasons: if, after doing your own research and reading, you find something in the text of the Lisbon treaty that you strongly oppose, with good reason, and that you genuinely believe not to be in best interests of Ireland, then it doesn't really matter how great the EU has been for Ireland. Of course you should oppose it.
I'd love to see most of the Yes/No posters gone, and replaced by posters with the simple slogan: Make up your own f*cking mind!
What group or party or people are you talking about there with regards to the "no" campaigns ?
Joe Higgins, Patricia McKenna and Vincent Browne have all highlighted good reasons to vote no. It's Coir spinning lies and threats.P. Breathnach wrote: »There are no bribes set up and ready to be paid, but there is a long-term record of the EU conferring great favour on Ireland, much of which might be attributed to goodwill.
Are they going to take away their roundabouts (or whatever % of them they own) if we vote no again ? Come on really, this spreading of fear that there'll be sanctions against Ireland if this gets shot down again is just ludicrous.
Where was it on the 9 o'clock news though? I don't remember it being mentioned.
It was on the 9 O'Clock news whatever night Ireland for Europe launched its campaign. It was 2nd story from the top if I remember correct. Don't think they archive their newscasts on the website though.PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »One of the most vocal 'No' advocates on boards.ie disagrees:
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FutureTaoiseach doesn't speak for me on this. He/she has their own reasons and arguments on this.0 -
Alan Rouge wrote: »Don't think they archive their newscasts on the website though.
They do. About a week's worth I think.
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Alan Rouge wrote: »... Are they going to take away their roundabouts (or whatever % of them they own) if we vote no again ? Come on really, this spreading of fear that there'll be sanctions against Ireland if this gets shot down again is just ludicrous...
It's not in the least bit ludicrous to point out that the EU has treated Ireland well, and that goodwill has been involved. A loss of goodwill is not equivalent to the imposition of sanctions, and to suggest that I was was spreading such a fear is a gross distortion of what I said.
Remind me of the thread title.0 -
Alan Rouge wrote: »Joe Higgins, Patricia McKenna and Vincent Browne have all highlighted good reasons to vote no. It's Coir spinning lies and threats.
Do you mean when he took an article of the treaty, chopped half of it out to change its meaning to something negative and put it up on his website?
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20556773940 -
Joe Higgins
Im still searching the Treaty to find out what it has to do with Privatization or where its mentioned0
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