Has Irish Independence Been A Success?

asdasd

Would we have needed a Ryan report?

Presumably, unless the Catholic church was banned by the British.

The existance of the Ryan report either tells us that

1) Ireland has had more Child abuse than other countries, or
2) Other countries dont do Ryan reports.

it is probably not that popular an opinion on here but I tend to believe 2).

( Jsersey, Islington, Kincora, and all post English schools. Lots of buggery. No reports).

Bock the Robber

Or unless the British didn't put reformatories, education and health in the hands of the Catholic church?

Oh, wait!

asdasd

You clearly didnt read my answer. They are buggering their children senseless in Eton. Catholicism has little to do with it. We investigate. They dont. google the bits in parenthesis and add Child Abuse.

Bock the Robber

Sorry. I didn't realise Eton was paid for by the government.

asdasd

Sorry. I didn't realise Eton was paid for by the government.

We are clearly into the stupid part of the night, huh. I can only assume you've been drinking.

It doenst matter if Eton is government owned , run, or not. My point is that child abuse in England or the UK is probably as bad - per capita - as Ireland but they dont investigate. In fact the Jersey thing has dropped off the political radar.

I mean they only found skulls there.

ballsymchugh

Terrontress wrote: »

I'd say in order for the British to have willingly signed Ireland over, they must have agreed that there would be no forcible removal of property. Same thing that if Ireland were to become 32 county, anyone who leaves Northern Ireland to go to the UK will still own their house and property unless they sell them.

there's a difference between rent and ground rent though, like, weren't these places kinda stolen in the first place?? i mean, paying a british lord ground rent for a building like the GPO is different from paying a local sham for a room in a house in belfast..
and no, there probably wouldn't have been a ryan report, it would've had a name like the walpole report. or *** report.


*** = insert stereotypical british lord's name here..

Bock the Robber

It's a bit early in the discussion to descend to ad hominem accusations of drunkenness, wouldn't you say?

Government involvement has everything to do with the issue, unless you were answering a different question.

asdasd

Government involvement has everything to do with the issue, unless you were answering a different question.

You're question was would we have had a Ryan report.

You then went onto say that

Or unless the British didn't put reformatories, education and health in the hands of the Catholic church?

Now this is really simple. My points were simple. I think that child abuse is not limited to the Catholic church, or in fact to religions ( check out Jersey, Islington). So it wouldnt have mattered.

But we wouldnt have had a report becasue the English dont do tribunals.

ballsymchugh

ok so it seems like people are equating irish nationhood with catholic abuse...
what about hurling, the finest game in the world, which flourished after being suppressed, or the irish language, and i don't care how much you hated it in school (imo it's taught the wrong way) but it's still a beautiful language (the weather girl on tg4 being case and point).

asdasd

weren't these places kinda stolen in the first place??

Possilby. Lots of stuff was. The Catholic church has claim to a lot of English churches now owned by the Church of England. What makes property legal is law, and we continued with common law - we didnt have a marxist revolution.

Bock the Robber

No.

My question was whether Ireland is a better place following independence.

Stay with the programme.

asdasd

ok so it seems like people are equating irish nationhood with catholic abuse...

Quite.

I think Bock the Robber comes from the Empire ioving part of Limerick. I've met that type.

Note the way he went quickly onto the Ryan Report ( the Ace in the Hole of post-colonial sleveenism) when I pointed out that we would never have had the kind of foreign direct investment with a UK parliament.

Bock the Robber

asdasd wrote: »

Quite.

I think Bock the Robber comes from the Empire ioving part of Limerick. I've met that type.

Note the way he went quickly onto the Ryan Report ( the Ace in the Hole of post-colonial sleveenism) when I pointed out that we would never have had the kind of foreign direct investment with a UK parliament.

It isn't about individuals. Are you able to address the question or are you only able to play the man?

asdasd

My question was whether Ireland is a better place following independence.

That was your first qeuestion. When I answered it with the FDI answer, you - the thread owner - moved onto the Ryan Report.

So, child abuse is first mentioned by you, and now offtopic. We must stay with the programme, which is to not answer your suplementary questions unless that proves you wrong.

asdasd

It isn't about individuals. Are you able to address the question or are you only able to play the man?

I did answer it!!!!!!!

Your response to that was to poison the well with the Ryan Report. That having not worked you want, now, to get back on topic ignoring all answers you disagree with.

i can't be clearer. Ireland's present day wealth depended on an Irish government, or instutions set up by it - the IDA - attracting foreign capital which is something the UK government would have spent little, or no time on.

Bock the Robber

The Ryan report is an example. If you prefer, we can talk about NAMA, or we can talk about Bertie's 1.27 billion bailout for the Catholic church.

Alternatively, we can discuss why Ireland gets not a penny for its 14 billion euros worth of gas from Shell.

We could discuss why our hospitals are in excrement, why we have no transport infrastructure or why our schools are in prefabs.

If you prefer, we could talk about the reasons why our communications infrastructure was sold off to asset strippers with the result that we have the worst broadband in Europe.

I don't mind.

ballsymchugh

Bock the Robber wrote: »

The Ryan report is an example. If you prefer, we can talk about NAMA, or we can talk about Bertie's 1.27 billion bailout for the Catholic church.

Alternatively, we can discuss why Ireland gets not a penny for its 14 billion euros worth of gas from Shell.

We could discuss why our hospitals are in excrement, why we have no transport infrastructure or why our schools are in prefabs.

If you prefer, we could talk about the reasons why our communications infrastructure was sold off to asset strippers with the result that we have the worst broadband in Europe.

I don't mind.

have to agree with the shell issue, i still don't get why it isn't being brought in by the state.
but if you ask an older person about hospitals and the state they're in, they'll usually say that they were never in that condition when they were run by the nuns. and i'd agree.

asdasd

Since we are comparing to the UK where I live.

. If you prefer, we can talk about NAMA, or we can talk about Bertie's 1.27 billion bailout for the Catholic church.

NAMA is a necessity, the US is spending trillions on its banks. The UK is quantitve easing.

Alternatively, we can discuss why Ireland gets not a penny for its 14 billion euros worth of gas from Shell.

Probably because they cant get it ashore due to luddites blocking the way. I realy dont have the time for pseud talk about oil, or gas, exploration. Fields with limited potential at the start will have to be given at preferential rates. So too with the original North Sea.

We could discuss why our hospitals are in excrement, why we have no transport infrastructure or why our schools are in prefabs.

The NHS is worse ( largely the NHS Is fetisihed by people who havent used it), we have nearly finished a motorway system as good as anywhere, schools are not "in prefabs" in genreal ( although none should be). The Cork-Dublin train is better than anything in England.

If you prefer, we could talk about the reasons why our communications infrastructure was sold off to asset strippers with the result that we have the worst broadband in Europe.

Um, riiiight. AS opposed to the publically owned versions in the UK which is what you are comparing us too. Or wold Lady Thatcher have had a different, less free market ideology with Ireland.

In this thought experiment you have to pretend we were still part of the UK, not Utopia.

Bock the Robber

Let's deal with facts instead of shouting.

How much are we getting for our gas?

asdasd

By the way when ever the post-colonial sleeveens come creeping out of the wood complaining about the Ireland is the Worst at Something there is little recourse to sources.

So

that we have the worst broadband in Europe.

Do you mean speed, or penetration. For either, source? I expect to see Ireland at the bottom of the list, not above the European average, which is what 2 seconds of googling showed me.

Bock the Robber

One point at a time.

How much are we getting for our gas?

ballsymchugh

asdasd wrote: »

The NHS is worse ( largely the NHS Is fetisihed by people who havent used it), we have nearly finished a motorway system as good as anywhere, schools are not "in prefabs" in genreal ( although none should be). The Cork-Dublin train is better than anything in England.

have to disagree there asdasd, (and it pains me to do it!!) but the nhs is way better than the hse. i've worked in the nhs for the past 7 years, i moved back to ireland in april. the nhs has set targets which are mostly pointless and ridiculous, but in general, it is better than what the hse are trying. what ireland needs is to get rid of mary harney and her ideas. if they thought about closing down hospitals that care for cancer patients in the nhs there'd be war.

asdasd

How much are we getting for our gas?

As for the Gas, I have no idea. Probably the same as for any new oil, or gas exploration in a new field anywhere.

But, totally off-topic.

Just say that is worse than the UK, and worse than the first ever North Sea oil field ever. ( I doubt it, there is always a controversy about the taxation level of the primary fields in a development).

But lets cede that.

so what?

We were poorer per-capita than the UK during the British control of Ireland, and richer now, even with the recent gdp decline.

so the answer is - empirically - we are better off.

asdasd

Now having answered that. Worst broadband in Europe - source?

Bock the Robber

asdasd wrote: »

As for the Gas, I have no idea. Probably the same as for any new oil, or gas exploration in a new field anywhere.

Let me help you there.

Luddites or no Luddites, Shell will pay us nothing for our gas. Not only that, but we don't even get first call on our gas. They can send it to Russia if they want, and we have no say. Thanks Bertie. Thanks Ray.

Next point: are you really serious when you suggest that we have a motorway system equal to anywhere?

I just need to check that before we go any further. Are you genuinely serious when you say that?

asdasd

I just need to check that before we go any further. Are you genuinely serious when you say that?

We will have when completed. Which is pretty soon now. Take the little town you live in. It will have a motorway to Dublin pretty soon, all the way.

That is massively over-specified given the size of a small town like Limerick. It would be like building a motor awy through Cornwall. I think we over-did it.

In any case we can only compare to the north, which is the part governed by the UK. Try travel north from Dublin. There is a part where the bad roads start, and its not the Republic.

remember the thought experiment is not - If Ireland was ruled by Utopia now, but by the UK now.

And empirically we are better off. i say Empirically. By that I mean, Empirically. The evidence is there in the GDP per capita figures. And nor can you say England has better roads than Ireland ( which is not empirically proven); since we wouldnt have been ruled as England is, but as Scotland, Norn Ireland, or Wales are.

So it goes.

Got the broadband statistics yet?

asdasd

And in case it isnt clear. The existance of motorways had to be dependent on the size of the population. WE really dont need a motorway to Donegal, for instance.

And so, to bed. Will join the fray amarach,

Bock the Robber

I'm coming to the broadband issue and I want to give it the respect it deserves. Therefore, I'll produce a proper analysis as opposed to your googling.

That will happen tomorrow.

If you really believe our motorway system is the equivalent of the best, you can't have had much chance to get outside our little borders, which is a pity, but that's your business. I'm not here to convince you of anything.

I'm not sure why you think a motorway to Dublin is a good thing. A proper road to Galway and Cork is what we need, unless, of course, you think the rest of the country is irrelevant. Maybe you'd have the balls to say that out straight if it's what you're trying to suggest.

Incidentally, when you say "WE" don't need a motorway to Donegal, could you clarify who you mean by "WE"?

ballsymchugh

this is pretty shyte broadband.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/locals-forced-to-log-on-in-graveyard-1884013.html

Pride Fighter

Bock the Robber wrote: »

One point at a time.

How much are we getting for our gas?

Corporation tax for Irish raw materials is double the 12.5% rate for other companies. Shell will be taxed at 25%.