Has Irish Independence Been A Success?

ballsymchugh

dkin wrote: »

The only reason we are on our feet is due to the billions that the EU spent on us. This was British, French and German money. If we had stayed part of Britain we would have joined the EU anyway and the British would probably have spent a significant amount propping up the country in the bad pre EU days, money we didn't get as an independent state.
The EU indulges us by allowing us a corporate tax rate that is significantly less than others and allowing us access to their enormous markets, this helps us to attract foreign multinationals. They pay for our farmers in a grossly unfair policy that effectively denies access to EU markets for people in developing countries who are on the breadline and sometimes forced into famine themselves. Our enormous public service is propped up by the ECB who allow unlimited access to their funds.

We are a dependent country and always have been a dependent country far from being on our own two feet.

very true, but we can't say how britain would have spent it's money if it joined the EU and we were still under the rule of london. could we then compare dublin to say, glasgow, which has the lowest life expectancy in western europe?
and of course this is going to compare irish life to british life, if we were still ruled from london then it would be uk policies that would be in force here too.

asdasd

The only reason we are on our feet is due to the billions that the EU spent on us. This was British, French and German money. If we had stayed part of Britain we would have joined the EU anyway and the British would probably have spent a significant amount propping up the country in the bad pre EU days, money we didn't get as an independent state.

Firstly, incorrect. And typical sleveenism. The EU money is a tiny percentage of our GDP,and if getting money from external countries were a guarantee of success Africa nations would have the world's biggest economies. More importantly it is less than our loss in fishing to the EU, and less - per capita - than the UK gets from North Sea oil. One of the reasons why I hope this country never finds oil is because the sleeven ochón for the Empire chaps like yourself would claim that would be the only reason we ever achieved wealth. We are one of hte richest countries in the world on our own bat, and with far less resources (oil, coal, tin etc.) than the English ( where you can make a historical point that said resources helped the Industrial revolution start there - coal particularly). If your internalised racism cant get to grips with that then thats a personal psychological question. The Economist debunked the EU money made the Irish boom years ago.

The EU indulges us by allowing us a corporate tax rate that is significantly less than others and allowing us access to their enormous markets, this helps us to attract foreign multinationals.

utter sutpidity. The corporation tax of any country is a sovereign issue, as is income tax. They dont indulge us. Every European country can do the same. On the same topic we are not indluging their higher income tax rates.

They pay for our farmers in a grossly unfair policy that effectively denies access to EU markets for people in developing countries who are on the breadline and sometimes forced into famine themselves. Our enormous public service is propped up by the ECB who allow unlimited access to their funds.

The CAP applies to farmers all over Europe, not just Ireland, where agriculture is a minor part of our economy now. ( And the developing world wouldnt gain from a free trade in Agriculture - it would be Argentina, Russia, New Zealand and Australia). The ECB does not pay for our Public Servants. We pay for them by taxinf ourselves, and/or issuing loans - like most other countries.

In fact - as an aside - entering the Euro was Ireland's biggest mistake. The EU zone was run for Germany and France, leaving us with negative real interest rates. Those negative real interest rates were the real reason for the boom.

We are a dependent country and always have been a dependent country far from being on our own two feet.

All countries are dependent in the modern global economy. We depend on America for our exports, and Germany too - the Germans need to Export to China and the US - China needs to keep America alive by exporting to it, the US depends on China buying it's dollar backed debts. Maybe the whole thing is a bit unstable, come to that.

asdasd

Its kind of ironic that this whole thread about Irish independence is really just based on British comparison.

Well spotted. That's because some people have a habit of shouting before their brain is engaged.

Yes, terribly ironic. I just wonder why?

On yeah the question is about whether Irish independence is a success, or not. Since we were part of the UK, comparisons with the UK are exactly the comparison we should make - not a comparison with a Utopia where all politicans are clean, all trains run on time, and everything is just hunky dory.

YOu would think this would be obvious.


And what is this nonsense that Bock talks about "shouting"? Is debunking the ill-formed an unstatistical opinions on the internet shouting? Or is it debate. I say the latter.

dkin

asdasd wrote: »

This is not the question. The econmic war was foolhardy and knocked us back a generation. The question is now would we be any better. The answer is no. We are better in GDP per capita, better than the North, and better than Scotland or Wales.

I prefer to use GNI as due to Ireland's tax status GDP is grossly overvalued as it includes the income of multinationals who repatriate most of their profits home. You are however correct Ireland does have a higher GNI than the UK. However we also have an enormous mountain of private sector debt (morgages, car loans etc. etc.) higher than Japan's much of which was due to bad economic management. Not to mention the madness that is NAMA and the effect this is going to have on our public debt.

Bock the Robber

asdasd wrote: »

And what is this nonsense that Bock talks about "shouting"? Is debunking the ill-formed an unstatistical opinions on the internet shouting? Or is it debate. I say the latter.

Bombastic broadsides are not debate.They're masturbation.

asdasd

Bombastic broadsides are not debate.They're masturbation.

Stop faspping off then, and answer my points. what I do, unlike you, is take you or dKins points, quote them and demolish them. What you do is cry about the nasty men on the internet "shouting" at you when your points are systematically demolished.

You want to keep changing the terms of the debate, too. We have to debate independce but not in relation to the UK. That, you decided mid-thread. Jesus wept.

The only statistic we need to know is that Ireland has a higher GDP than the UK. Or GNI. End Thread.

If this doesnt fit with your worldview , fine. Bigots can never be convinced. I am here for the neutrals.

Keeping the internet honest.

bkelly86

irish independence has been a great success.ireland could have easily become a military dictatorship in its early days especially after civil war so to have the democracy we have today we have done well.

Bock the Robber

asdasd wrote: »

Bigots can never be convinced. I am here for the neutrals.

Keeping the internet honest.

Calling people idiots, sleveens and bigots is not debate. Accusing them of being drunk is not debate. Neither is misquoting people or putting words in their mouth.

Who knows- perhaps in your world these things pass for debate, but in mine you just sound like an overbearing loudmouth.

Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe you're the mildest of people in real life, compensating by pretending to be a dribbling thug.

I'm tired of you now, and I have an early start. Enough of all this harrumphing from you.

asdasd

Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe you're the mildest of people in real life, compensating by pretending to be a dribbling thug.

Good man. YOu will note that I launch my supposed ad hominens in a general sense - i.e. bigots can never be persuaded( you can take that you mean you, or not - it is however a general truism) but that you - and let the record show - have made a clear personal attack.

one which, clearly, and let the record show again - does not answer any points I made.

We'll let neutrals decided on that one.

Bock the Robber

You won't slither out of it that easily, kid.

You've been patronising and flinging insults at everyone who disagrees with you since I started this thread, in the time-honoured bar-room bully tradition, and you don't like it being thrown back at you.

Show a little more respect for other people's opinions, and you might start to look less like a boorish, opinionated know-all.

dkin

asdasd wrote: »

We are one of hte richest countries in the world on our own bat, and with far less resources (oil, coal, tin etc.) than the English ( where you can make a historical point that said resources helped the Industrial revolution start there - coal particularly). If your internalised racism cant get to grips with that then thats a personal psychological question. The Economist debunked the EU money made the Irish boom years ago.

We have a high GDP because we have a low corporate tax rate that allows american multinationals to relocate here. Our wealth is entirely reliant on a low tax rate and access to EU markets. 80% of our exports come from american multinationals who have set up shop here, hardly from the sweat off our own backs. We benefit far more from the EU than they do from us. I agree however on the fishing rights, but why did we never have a national fishing industry? We are an island nation and we gave away our fishing rights as farming was the majority employer, an effective government would have encouraged a much larger fishing industry and capitalised on probably our most valuable resource. I'm not claiming that the EU money keeps us rich but it was extremely valuable investment at a time when Ireland was on it's knees and allowed us to develop. The EU is valuable to Ireland for different reasons today.

utter sutpidity. The corporation tax of any country is a sovereign issue, as is income tax. They dont indulge us. Every European country can do the same. On the same topic we are not indluging their higher income tax rates.

We have an unfair economic advantage due to our lower corporate tax rate, most of the major european countries are not happy about this but they allow it continue for the moment traditionally as we were seen as disadvanaged . It's a soverign issue but how useful would a low corporate tax rate be if we didn't have access to EU markets? This is precisely the point, it's better to work together.

The CAP applies to farmers all over Europe, not just Ireland, where agriculture is a minor part of our economy now. ( And the developing world wouldnt gain from a free trade in Agriculture - it would be Argentina, Russia, New Zealand and Australia). The ECB does not pay for our Public Servants. We pay for them by taxinf ourselves, and/or issuing loans - like most other countries.

Although agriculture is a minor part of our economy it is one of our few indiginous industries in which we have a world class reputation and in my opinion therefore one of the most sustainable and important. I was simply highlighting that our agricultural industry is reliant on foreign countries. The ECB currently offers unlimited liquidity for Irish bonds, this is primarily how the governement funds the cost of the public service atm.

In fact - as an aside - entering the Euro was Ireland's biggest mistake. The EU zone was run for Germany and France, leaving us with negative real interest rates. Those negative real interest rates were the real reason for the boom.

No bad economic management due to poor governance was the cause of the boom, we were simply allowed into the sweet shop and told to act like responsible people. Ten years later we're obese and finally coming to terms with the consequences.

All countries are dependent in the modern global economy. We depend on America for our exports, and Germany too - the Germans need to Export to China and the US - China needs to keep America alive by exporting to it, the US depends on China buying it's dollar backed debts. Maybe the whole thing is a bit unstable, come to that.

I agree.

ballsymchugh

dkin wrote: »

I prefer to use GNI as due to Ireland's tax status GDP is grossly overvalued as it includes the income of multinationals who repatriate most of their profits home. You are however correct Ireland does have a higher GNI than the UK. However we also have an enormous mountain of private sector debt (morgages, car loans etc. etc.) higher than Japan's much of which was due to bad economic management. Not to mention the madness that is NAMA and the effect this is going to have on our public debt.

isn't the reason we have so much private sector debt because of the low interest rates from the ECB? i'm basing this on David McWilliams, so i could be wrong? but if i'm not then using the ECB as the reason we are on our feet, and then talking about the bad effect it caused is a bit, erm, shnarey.

ballsymchugh

dkin wrote: »

No bad economic management due to poor governence was the cause of the boom, we were simply allowed into the sweat shop and told to act like responsible people. Ten years later we're obese and finally coming to terms with the consequences.

oops, you answered while i was typing!!

dkin

asdasd wrote: »

The only statistic we need to know is that Ireland has a higher GDP than the UK. Or GNI. End Thread.

You must remember that the Irish GNI is so large in part due to FDI to but also due to the enormous amount of money that flooded the country due the housing boom. Billions of euros were generated and spend all around the country building and selling house to each other at one stage 25% of the economy was construction related. With the collapse in the construction I expect our GNI to fall fairly dramatically, not to mention all the wage cuts in the news further reducing it. This borrowed money all has to be paid back and our wealth for the most part was simply a short term credit binge with long term consequences.

Ireland's key problem is a lack of diversification and this will cost us dearly in the future. Many of the eastern european countries are matching our corporation rates and international competition is fierce to attract further FDI.

LordSutch

Bock the Robber wrote: »

Is Ireland a better place thanks to independence?

'NO' for the first seventy odd years of so called independence, and 'YES' since the mid nineties.

Current 'short term' economic difficulties taken into account

rant_and_rave

asdasd wrote: »

Presumably, unless the Catholic church was banned by the British.

The existance of the Ryan report either tells us that

1) Ireland has had more Child abuse than other countries, or
2) Other countries dont do Ryan reports.

it is probably not that popular an opinion on here but I tend to believe 2).

( Jsersey, Islington, Kincora, and all post English schools. Lots of buggery. No reports).

2 is correct. And this is not an anti-English tirade. There were 55,000 cases of child abuse reported in Australia last year. That would be 1,935,000 over 35 years V 5000 in Ireland over a similar period. Ryan Report that!

http://www.theage.com.au/national/size-of-child-abuse-problem-horrific-20090428-am2a.html

rant_and_rave

Camelot wrote: »

'NO' for the first seventy odd years of so called independence, and 'YES' since the mid nineties.

Current 'short term' economic difficulties taken into account

That period coincides with Ireland moving from being a poorish country by European standards with high unemployment to being relatively rich with a full employment. Nobody likes being poor.

If the Irish had not been able to pursue an independent industrial policy in the 60s and 70s the country would still be an economic backwater reliant on agriculture and tourism like most of Scotland is today. For better or for worse UK economic policy is dictated by the needs of the City of London to the detriment of most of the country outside the home counties where of course most of the voting population live.

anonymous_joe

rant_and_rave wrote: »

2 is correct. And this is not an anti-English tirade. There were 55,000 cases of child abuse reported in Australia last year. That would be 1,935,000 over 35 years V 5000 in Ireland over a similar period. Ryan Report that!

http://www.theage.com.au/national/size-of-child-abuse-problem-horrific-20090428-am2a.html

They've endemic problems with Aborigines abusing their children. It's heartbreaking.

What we had was a small backwards country with a too powerful clergy who acted with impunity. In that regard we probably weren;t worse than many Catholic countries, but then again, nowhere else has been quite so bad...

prinz

ballsymchugh wrote: »

have to agree with the shell issue, i still don't get why it isn't being brought in by the state..

Probably because the state weren't bothered their hole looking for it, Shell et al. were. Would you support the government spending millions of euros on oil exploration without a guarantee of success?

blinding

When the british empire withdrew from the 26 counties it would have been fortuitous for us if the had brought the Catholic empire with them but they just were destined not to get along. Maybe too similar to be compatable.

ballsymchugh

prinz wrote: »

Probably because the state weren't bothered their hole looking for it, Shell et al. were. Would you support the government spending millions of euros on oil exploration without a guarantee of success?

when the government were awash with money, then it could've been an interesting option. a google search on oil exploration revealed something interesting though....

from wiki
In 1985 Dick Spring modified, Minister for Industry and Commerce Justin Keating's 1975 exploration terms to give a sliding scale of royalties but retained a right to state participation in oil and gas finds In 1987, in a move described by Dick Spring, then a member of the opposition, as "economic treason",[1] Fianna Fáil Minister for Energy Ray Burke abolished all royalties on petroleum and natural gas extraction and removed the state's right to participation.[2][3]He also surrendered the state's atake in the Kinsale Head gas field. In 1992, then Minister for Finance, former Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern extended licensing terms for fossil fuel companies, drastically reduced the tax rate for exploration companies to the lowest in the world.[4] This was compounded by Department of the Marine and Natural Resources tying the fiscal measures into the licencing terms for oil and gas exploration in November 1992.[5] Following the locking in of fiscal measures, into the licensing terms, the licence for the Corrib field was issued in January 1993.


every single decision that ray burke made should be investigated. there had to be some serious brown envelopes there..

Johnny Utah

dkin wrote: »

Have you any evidence to back this up? It's at most a best guess. Ireland was approximately equal to Britain in 1910 on GDP per capita and after independence due to civil war, terrible economic polices etc. we went backward in comparison this is despite Britain having to fight several world wars.

Yes, look at the economic situation in Northern Ireland since our independence. In the early 20th century, Belfast was thriving. The reason the 6 counties were kept is simply because that was the centre of industry on this island at the time. The North's economy gradually declined in the decades after our independence.

Look at how nationalists and Catholics were abused and discriminated in the North, and the subsequent civil rights movement and long campaign of violence. How can you have economic prosperity in that sort of environment?
And why do you think Irish Catholics would be treated any better in the 26 counties had we remained under British rule?


Furthermore, the GDP figures do not give a true reflection of the economic state of our nation back in 1910 either. On paper, we might have been equal to Britain at the time; but most of the wealth was controlled by the aristocracy and the ruling class, while the vast majority of the Irish population lived in dire poverty.

dkin wrote: »

I am not trying to defend the prior acts of British rule in Ireland famine, penal laws etc. These were unacceptable and terrible acts. I'm more interested in the time line from 1910 onwards. Would we have been better off econmomically staying as a part of Britain? 1920-1990 were not exactly times of great prosperity or national development.

No. Ireland may not have enjoyed great prosperity from 1920-1990, but we were still better off being independent. As I said above, we were a very poor country under British rule, so the economic situation didn't alter too much in the decades following independence. However, at least the Irish people were no longer suppressed by the British ruling class.

MrMicra

dkin wrote: »

Irish average GDP per capita was the same as Britains pre WW I, putting us in the top 10 world wide. After independence this would have collapsed as Britain forged ahead despite fighting several world wars and we were left with bad economic polices and mass emigration and the after effects pf a civil war.

The point above is valid but does not control for:
Northern Ireland. Many of the richest individuals in the old UK lived in Belfast. The region was comparitively wealthy by British standards. The same can not be said for most of the rest of the island of Ireland.

Capital flight. There was a high degree of capital flight in post independence ireland. Many people whose political sympathies were with the old UK (a group much richer than average population) left for the north and the UK. Further the British civil service was wound down and those individuals involved in it left for the UK.
Concerns about instability led to movements of money to the UK by large numbers of the bourgeoisie (of all religions) who remained.


This country has only been truly independent for about 30 years. Prior to that the mind forged manacles of the RC church inhibited all development.

MrMicra

Terrontress wrote: »

Does anyone think that the UK will have done a lot better without the 26 counties than it would have done, had it been politically forced to keep them?

The loss of the 26 counties can be used as a symbolic beginning of the end of the British Empire. As such the UK elite would certainly have been better off had they held on to the 26 counties.

BennyLava

Of course it's a success, (if your a politician)

we've come a long way since independence, matured to the point where we are well able to f@ck up our one destinies, without needing the UK to do it for us.

Makes me proud:(

Dark_lord_ire

I think we should hand back to the british and say sorry for the mess we made lol

Sand

A success? Look at our government and point out the success...

Half of the sitting TDs are thieves or corrupt, the other half enable the thieves and the corrupt. Our electorate elect them all whilst kidding themselves that the scum do "great work in the community".

We get what we deserve.

asdasd

UKs deficit is 12% this year. Shockin'

Maybe we should take em over - they'd have better trains.

anonymous_joe

Sand wrote: »

A success? Look at our government and point out the success...

Half of the sitting TDs are thieves or corrupt, the other half enable the thieves and the corrupt. Our electorate elect them all whilst kidding themselves that the scum do "great work in the community".

We get what we deserve.

That's not Irish, that's democratic.

Name one democracy without corruption of any form.

Take Obama versus Haughey, Haughey took cutbacks, etc, but when Obama leaves the presidency he'll make a fortune from various interest groups and companies whom he blessed with favourable legislation during his tenure. That's what every Yank president in living memory has done. Same with each UKian PM, German Chancellor, etc.

dkin

asdasd wrote: »

UKs deficit is 12% this year. Shockin'

Maybe we should take em over - they'd have better trains.

You do realise our government has just announced it is planning to pay €54 billion for (mostly) useless assets no private investor will touch, has a projected current deficit of €20 billion and rising this year, has undergone massive bank recapitalisations AIB (3.5 billion), BOI (3.5 billion), Anglo Irish Bank (4 billion + nationalisation) in the last 12 months.
All this while taking in optimistically €34.4 billion in tax this year and falling. AIB has already said NAMA is not enough and they will need more recapitalisation money.

The massively unpopular supplementary budget in april is projected to raise revenue by €1.8bn from pension levy, taxes etc. but unfortunately the economic situation has got worse since they made those projections. Total government debt is €90 billion at current 10 year bond rates we are paying 4.9% vs 3.73% for the UK so we're paying €11.7million more in interest each year than the UK for each €1 billion we get by selling bonds. Assuming a very very approximately 3% over all interest we're paying €2.7 billion per year interest, so so much for the supplementary budget.

Guess what it continues to get worse by the hour. The government through NAMA have sold us down the river and we will be paying for this folly for years, have a look at the soaring stocks of the banks and see the choice the government made, banks vs the people. Trust me it was an easy decision for them and they'll sleep soundly tonight.

I would be very careful criticising how other countries conduct their business.