Lisbon: Yes for Jobs?

irishbanger

Here pass it on

ei.sdraob

irishbanger wrote: »

Hey I'm Irish, do we have another vote next year or what to change our minds . personally i don't mind if we go back to the stone age, i'm pissed at the moment and i don't care what europe thinks, **** them, let everybody in europe have a vote then I might agreed until then **** THEM ALL

and they ask why people think that some NO people are arrogant and ignorant

case in hand :rolleyes:

Tarobot

irishbanger wrote: »

Hey I'm Irish, do we have another vote next year or what to change our minds . personally i don't mind if we go back to the stone age, i'm pissed at the moment and i don't care what europe thinks, **** them, let everybody in europe have a vote then I might agreed until then **** THEM ALL

Well there's no point shooting yourself in the foot. Governments will come and go but Lisbon is really important to Ireland's future - with or without Fianna Fail!

mandysmithers wrote: »

It was never said that the Lisbon treaty had to be ratified by all states......unless, one actually turned it down. So when Ireland voted no, and it wasn't respected, that pisses me off.

Correct me if I'm wrong here!

No, I'm afraid that's incorrect. It has always been the case that every country needs to ratify the Treaty or it fails.

ei.sdraob

mandysmithers wrote: »

That just sounds like bullying though!

I'm not sure whether I'm going to vote yes or no, despite having read up on the treaty. Each side is just saying that the other side is lying, and both sides are contradicting each other. It's difficult to know who to believe.
!

then go to the Neutral Refendum Commision's site

http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/

read the Leaflets and info

and ignore the bickering here on boards, most of is due to brand new member jumping straight here and posting inflammatory comments that add no value to the debate, like the @irishbanger guy few posts up

mandysmithers

It was never said that the Lisbon treaty had to be ratified by all states......unless, one actually turned it down. So when Ireland voted no, and it wasn't respected, that pisses me off.

Correct me if I'm wrong here!

Tarobot wrote: »

Well there's no point shooting yourself in the foot. Governments will come and go but Lisbon is really important to Ireland's future - with or without Fianna Fail!


No, I'm afraid that's incorrect. It has always been the case that every country needs to ratify the Treaty or it fails.

I was being a bit sarcastic with the bit in bold. I know it has to be ratified by all states. What gets to me is when one state votes no, that sin't respected.

Tarobot

mandysmithers wrote: »

I was being a bit sarcastic with the bit in bold. I know it has to be ratified by all states. What gets to me is when one state votes no, that sin't respected.

Well I mean our No vote was respected: the Treaty wasn't ratified.

What happened then was the government did some research and found out that most No voters voted for reasons that had nothing to do with the Treaty (mostly their own fault for not explaining it properly in my opinion).

All 26 other countries plus Ireland then sat down together to work out a set of legally binding guarantees to assure the Irish people that neutrality, abortion wouldn't be touched and that we could keep our Commissioner.

So we're now voting on the Treaty, the Decision to keep the commissioner and the legally binding guarantees!

Dinner

mandysmithers wrote: »

I was being a bit sarcastic with the bit in bold. I know it has to be ratified by all states. What gets to me is when one state votes no, that sin't respected.

It was respected. Lisbon was not ratified.

What happened after was the government and the EU tried to sort out the issues that the Irish public had with the treaty. Something which is perfectly democratic.

Once these have been sorted isn't it only fair to have another referendum?

puffdragon

It's quite clear you have no idea how the green economy works.[/quote]

If I had a bag of wood pellets fr every time I've seen this kind of statement about people you dont know on boards i'd be laughing

Scofflaw

BlondieCait wrote: »

Hello,

Lisbon posters;

Lisbon, yes for jobs
Lisbon, yes for the economy


Have read the Treaty this morning, and to my disbelief I could not find the areas that mention jobs or the economy.

Could anybody point me in the right direction.

Article 3 TEU:

3. The Union shall establish an internal market. It shall work for the sustainable development of Europe based on balanced economic growth and price stability, a highly competitive social market economy, aiming at full employment and social progress, and a high level of protection and improvement of the quality of the environment. It shall promote scientific and technological advance. It shall combat social exclusion and discrimination, and shall promote social justice and protection, equality between women and men, solidarity between generations and protection of the rights of the child. It shall promote economic, social and territorial cohesion, and solidarity among Member States. It shall respect its rich cultural and linguistic diversity, and shall ensure that Europe's cultural heritage is safeguarded and enhanced.

"Full employment" is a new objective.

cordially,
Scofflaw

PaulieD

Scofflaw wrote: »

Article 3 TEU:



"Full employment" is a new objective.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Any mention of how the treaty will help to achieve that objective?

BlitzKrieg

PaulieD wrote: »

Any mention of how the treaty will help to achieve that objective?

article 166 has a section about the EU funding vocational training courses.

Scofflaw

PaulieD wrote: »

Any mention of how the treaty will help to achieve that objective?

If you'd like to look through all the articles that mention employment, you could go here. However, you won't find employment policy in the Treaties, because the Treaties don't set out policy.

cordially,
Scofflaw

rumour

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

Bizarrely for this claim, FDI in Ireland has apparently actually increased in Ireland since the no vote. Ours is essentially a construction-related recession. That is where it is coming from. It has nothing to do with the no vote whatsoever. Irish exports have risen 5% in the year up to April, compared to a drop of 29% in Germany. In June, Irish exports also rose 5%. Irish industrial production rose 8.9% in the year to July – rising by a huge 68.3% in the American pharmaceutical sector here. This evidence suggests strongly that the no vote has not impacted negatively on investor sentiment of Ireland. Intel and Ryanair have their own reasons for supporting Lisbon, relating to Intel’s appeal against the €1.06 billion fine, and Ryanair’s desire to takeover Aer Lingus which the Commission previously blocked. What is dragging the economy down has nothing do with Lisbon, but may partly be laid at the door of the ECB’s monetary policy, which has imposed Franco-German interests on an economy at the perhipery of Europe, which had an overheating economy until 2008. A property-bubble and crash became inevitable as a consequence. If anything, events underline the dangers of too much centralisation of economic sovereignty in supranational institutions, which tend to be dominated by the Big States.

Some welcome reason amongst the madness...

marco_polo

rumour wrote: »

Some welcome reason amongst the madness...

Must be a first time that has a FT post has been described that way. Only if you selectively omit the fact that there is on average a five year lead in for FDI projects.

K-9

rumour wrote: »

Some welcome reason amongst the madness...

From a certain point of view, YES!

Irish exports are reliant on FDI, unfortunately, because we used low EU Interest rates to concentrate on property bubbles, not growing indigenous companies with strong exports.

Irish people are a bit greedy and property obsessed, unlike the French and Germans.

The rising by a huge 68.3% in the American pharmaceutical sector here point?

Go on, think about it? What does that suggest about Irish exports?

dresden8

Scofflaw wrote: »

"Full employment" is a new objective.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Was it not before?

rumour

Scofflaw wrote: »

Article 3 TEU:



"Full employment" is a new objective.

cordially,
Scofflaw

You mighthave to help me with my ignorance here......I have a copy of the Lisbon Treaty here and can't find your reference. Maybe my copy is wrong but it has berties signature.
Anyway...I've got what I think is in Article 1, clause 3 under general provisions, it states the following clause 1a shall be inserted?
In clause 5 of Article 1 it says, article 3 shall be repealed and the following article 3a inserted..... (I presume it is referring to the treaty establishing the european union.)
Then i find Article 3 on page 134 which states ' this treaty is concluded for an unlimited period'

So where is your reference from?

Cordially,

Rumour

rumour

K-9 wrote: »

From a certain point of view, YES!

Irish exports are reliant on FDI, unfortunately, because we used low EU Interest rates to concentrate on property bubbles, not growing indigenous companies with strong exports.

Irish people are a bit greedy and property obsessed, unlike the French and Germans.

The rising by a huge 68.3% in the American pharmaceutical sector here point?

Go on, think about it? What does that suggest about Irish exports?

We're making the anti-flu vaceen?

marco_polo

rumour wrote: »

You mighthave to help me with my ignorance here......I have a copy of the Lisbon Treaty here and can't find your reference. Maybe my copy is wrong but it has berties signature.
Anyway...I've got what I think is in Article 1, clause 3 under general provisions, it states the following clause 1a shall be inserted?
In clause 5 of Article 1 it says, article 3 shall be repealed and the following article 3a inserted..... (I presume it is referring to the treaty establishing the european union.)
Then i find Article 3 on page 134 which states ' this treaty is concluded for an unlimited period'

So where is your reference from?

Cordially,

Rumour

Why not get the consolidated version?

Scofflaw

rumour wrote: »

You mighthave to help me with my ignorance here......I have a copy of the Lisbon Treaty here and can't find your reference. Maybe my copy is wrong but it has berties signature.
Anyway...I've got what I think is in Article 1, clause 3 under general provisions, it states the following clause 1a shall be inserted?
In clause 5 of Article 1 it says, article 3 shall be repealed and the following article 3a inserted..... (I presume it is referring to the treaty establishing the european union.)
Then i find Article 3 on page 134 which states ' this treaty is concluded for an unlimited period'

So where is your reference from?

Cordially,

Rumour

Sometimes I'm concerned that the No side claim of there being no consolidated text genuinely meant they were unable to find it. As marco_polo says - if you're still wading around in the unconsolidated version, you should probably wise up and get the consolidated text (from here, for example). I'm referring to Article 3 TEU (post-Lisbon numbering).

wisely,
Scofflaw

rumour

Scofflaw wrote: »

Sometimes I'm concerned that the No side claim of there being no consolidated text genuinely meant they were unable to find it. As marco_polo says - if you're still wading around in the unconsolidated version, you should probably wise up and get the consolidated text (from here, for example). I'm referring to Article 3 TEU (post-Lisbon numbering).

wisely,
Scofflaw

No need to be snooty, I believe I was quite polite in asking.

K-9

rumour wrote: »

We're making the anti-flu vaceen?

And?

How does it affect FT's "Facts"?

Oh and can you answer the previous question?

Scofflaw

rumour wrote: »

No need to be snooty, I believe I was quite polite in asking.

I'm sorry you've taken offence where none was intended - why are you using the unconsolidated text?

perplexed,
Scofflaw

rumour

dresden8 wrote: »

Was it not before?

I think it was, I've read the treaty and am reading the 'consolidated treaty' (which I admit I couldn't find for the last time I voted, but no matter at the time I read the previous treaties also....despite the snotty implications of others) it's not in the Lisbon Treaty so it must have been there before.

Scofflaw

dresden8 wrote: »

Was it not before?

No, it was "a high level of employment" in Article 2 TEU. This is the relevant bit from the unconsolidated text:

4) Article 2 shall be replaced by the following:
‘Article 2
1. The Union's aim is to promote peace, its values and the well-being of its peoples.
2. The Union shall offer its citizens an area of freedom, security and justice without internal frontiers, in which the free movement of persons is ensured in conjunction with appropriate measures with respect to external border controls, asylum, immigration and the prevention and combating of crime.
3. The Union shall establish an internal market. It shall work for the sustainable development of Europe based on balanced economic growth and price stability, a highly competitive social market economy, aiming at full employment and social progress, and a high level of protection and improvement of the quality of the environment. It shall promote scientific and technological advance.

This is what's being replaced:

The Union shall set itself the following objectives:
- to promote economic and social progress and a high level of employment and to achieve balanced and sustainable development, in particular through the creation of an area without internal frontiers, through the strengthening of economic and social cohesion and through the establishment of economic and monetary union, ultimately including a single currency in accordance with the provisions of this Treaty,
- to assert its identity on the international scene, in particular through the implementation of a common foreign and security policy including the progressive framing of a common defence policy, which might lead to a common defence, in accordance with the provisions of Article 17,
- to strengthen the protection of the rights and interests of the nationals of its Member States through the introduction of a citizenship of the Union,
- to maintain and develop the Union as an area of freedom, security and justice, in which the free movement of persons is assured in conjunction with appropriate measures with respect to external border controls, asylum, immigration and the prevention and combating of crime,
- to maintain in full the acquis communautaire and build on it with a view to considering to what extent the policies and forms of cooperation introduced by this Treaty may need to be revised with the aim of ensuring the effectiveness of the mechanisms and the institutions of the Community. The objectives of the Union shall be achieved as provided in this Treaty and in accordance with the conditions and the timetable set out therein while respecting the principle of subsidiarity as defined in Article 5 of the Treaty establishing the European Community.

cordially,
Scofflaw

jimmycrackcorm

BlondieCait wrote: »

Hello,

Lisbon posters;

Lisbon, yes for jobs
Lisbon, yes for the economy


Have read the Treaty this morning, and to my disbelief I could not find the areas that mention jobs or the economy.

Could anybody point me in the right direction.

Ever heard of the saying Read between the lines?

rumour

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'm sorry you've taken offence where none was intended - why are you using the unconsolidated text?

perplexed,
Scofflaw

Frankly I was using a pdf I had from the last time. I used that in order to establish the changes. The consolidated text is fine if you just want to know whats in front of your nose. I have tried to explain this before, I am more interested in the direction of the EU rather than the specifics of this treaty. Idon'tthinkI've raised ay concern other than the value systemupon which it is founded, which by any standards is vague. I do not see this as a good thingin the long term.

I would normally deal with this sort of thing by change marked documents, obviously that can't be made readily available. But thats just me it's habit.

rumour

Scofflaw wrote: »

No, it was "a high level of employment" in Article 2 TEU. This is the relevant bit from the unconsolidated text:



This is what's being replaced:



cordially,
Scofflaw

I'm really not following you now, is the treaty altered between signing and the consolidated version or have I read this incorrectly? Article 2 is being replaced by article 2 in article 3??

For the avoidance of doubt, this is a genunine question.

Scofflaw

rumour wrote: »

I'm really not following you now, is the treaty altered between signing and the consolidated version or have I read this incorrectly?

For the avoidance of doubt, this is a genunine question.

No, the document isn't altered. If you go here (part of this page, which is the publication of the Treaty in the European Journal), and do a search for the word 'full', you'll find the text I've quoted in my post above.

The problem with the unconsolidated version is that it doesn't show what text is being replaced. Hence this, which has the two side by side.

cordially,
scofflaw

BlitzKrieg

think of lisbon like a patch for a computer programme it comes with a readme which literally lists only what changes have been made in the current patch.

The consolidated version is those changes *applied* to the original readme in their correct positions with the full text.

The result is this

article 3 TEU

Article 3
(ex Article 2 TEU)
1. The Union's aim is to promote peace, its values and the well-being of its peoples.
2. The Union shall offer its citizens an area of freedom, security and justice without internal
frontiers, in which the free movement of persons is ensured in conjunction with appropriate measures
with respect to external border controls, asylum, immigration and the prevention and combating of
crime.
3. The Union shall establish an internal market. It shall work for the sustainable development of
Europe based on balanced economic growth and price stability, a highly competitive social market
economy, aiming at full employment and social progress, and a high level of protection and
improvement of the quality of the environment. It shall promote scientific and technological advance.
It shall combat social exclusion and discrimination, and shall promote social justice and protection,
equality between women and men, solidarity between generations and protection of the rights of the
child.
It shall promote economic, social and territorial cohesion, and solidarity among Member States.
It shall respect its rich cultural and linguistic diversity, and shall ensure that Europe's cultural heritage is
safeguarded and enhanced.
4. The Union shall establish an economic and monetary union whose currency is the euro.
5. In its relations with the wider world, the Union shall uphold and promote its values and
interests and contribute to the protection of its citizens. It shall contribute to peace, security, the
sustainable development of the Earth, solidarity and mutual respect among peoples, free and fair trade,
eradication of poverty and the protection of human rights, in particular the rights of the child, as well
as to the strict observance and the development of international law, including respect for the
principles of the United Nations Charter.
6. The Union shall pursue its objectives by appropriate means commensurate with the
competences which are conferred upon it in the Treaties.

and the link to my source: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2008:115:0013:0045:EN:PDF

You can find all the treaties here: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/en/treaties/index.htm