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Lisbon: Yes for Jobs?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Honestly, this is embarrassing for the entire nation. The EU asks us to vote on a treaty and the nuts come out of the woodwork and trick us into thinking it does all manner of sh!te, including that it allows the EU to raise or corporate tax and we refuse to listen to the sensible people telling us otherwise

    Our government then goes to Europe and gets a legally binding guarantee that "Nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon makes any change of any kind, for any Member State, to the extent or operation of the competence of the European Union in relation to taxation."............and we don't believe that either!!

    It's fcuking shameful is what it is


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    I'd tend to go more on the Irish Taxation Institutes opinion on tax, than 12.5% of Economists.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    O'Morris wrote: »


    I think it's more likely that they agree with this gent
    http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0520/lisbon.html

    Of course a slight flaw in his argument is that he completely fails to mention what it is in the Lisbon treaty would help lead to such a imaginary scenario. Or how a no vote would help prevent that imaginary scenario.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭O'Morris


    Sam Vimes wrote:
    I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the reason these people did not say for definite that the Lisbon treaty has no effect on our ability to set our own taxes is because they have not read this:

    I don't think so. This was the paragraph dealing with taxation from the indecon survey:
    Among those matters was taxation, and it was agreed that “Nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon makes any change of any kind, for any Member State, to the extent or operation of the competence of the European Union in relation to taxation”. This development is reflected in the views of economists where the results indicate that 87.5% indicated that ratification of the Lisbon Treaty would not result in imposed changes in Ireland’s corporate tax rate.

    The economists surveyed were clearly aware of the guarantee on taxation. The fact that some of them still seem to be unconvinced that the Lisbon treaty won't lead to an imposed change in Ireland's corporate tax rate is very interesting.

    K-9 wrote:
    I'd tend to go more on the Irish Taxation Institutes opinion on tax, than 12.5% of Economists.

    So would I. I don't believe our low corporate tax-rate is threatened by the Lisbon treaty but I do think it's interesting that 12.5% of independent economists are less convinced than I am about this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭O'Morris


    marco_polo wrote: »
    Of course a slight flaw in his argument is that he completely fails to mention what it is in the Lisbon treaty would help lead to such a imaginary scenario. Or how a no vote would help prevent that imaginary scenario.

    It's not a flaw in the argument, it's an omission.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    O'Morris wrote: »
    It's not a flaw in the argument, it's an omission.

    It's an omission that relegates it from an argument to an opinion.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    O'Morris wrote: »
    It's not a flaw in the argument, it's an omission.

    The absense of the actual argument is quite a serious flaw in any argument don't you think?


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    O'Morris wrote: »
    So would I. I don't believe our low corporate tax-rate is threatened by the Lisbon treaty but I do think it's interesting that 12.5% of independent economists are less convinced than I am about this.

    Well, it would be rare 100% of economists would agree on anything!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭mickoneill30


    K-9 wrote: »
    Well, it would be rare 100% of economists would agree on anything!

    If they did you'd get the posts here saying it was a conspiracy :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    The fact that the No proponents are reduced to this kind of quibbling promotion of barely possible uncertainty or outright lies is pretty telling.

    I'm loath to characterise anyone as dishonest (bar people like COIR and Ganley, obviously), but there's obviously a degree of intellectual dishonesty involved in this kind of tactical "whatiffery". It's obvious that people are starting from a position of saying No, and then proceeding to clutch at any scrap of information that can possibly be used to cast doubt on the Treaty. It's very clear that these are not the reasons why No proponents are voting No - I'm pretty certain, for example, that O'Morris doesn't really give a toss about the opinion of 12.5% of economists in some survey.

    Why not man up and argue your real position?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 268 ✭✭Martin 2


    O'Morris wrote: »
    Exactly. I'm asking why 12.5% of the economists surveyed aren't convinced that the Lisbon treaty won't lead to an imposed change in Ireland's corporate tax rate. Taxation was never an issue for me and I've always assumed that our veto and the guarantees would be enough to prevent any changes in our low corporate tax. That's why I'm genuinely curious to know why some of the country's leading experts on the economy feel differently. Maybe our low corporate tax rate is not as secure as many of yes side would like us to think?

    I think it's more likely that they agree with this gent
    http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0520/lisbon.html
    I'd have a more faith in that guy (Ray Kinsella) if he didn't give interviews for Coir's website and for Alive magazine.. wonder what he thinks of minimum wage of €1.84 after a yes?. Anyway he's contradicted by the majority of economists polled, the Irish Taxation Institute and indirectly by the multinational sector

    .


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    K-9 wrote: »
    Well, it would be rare 100% of economists would agree on anything!

    But it is possible (merely possible, not a certainty) if the sample size is one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    O'Morris wrote: »
    The economists surveyed were clearly aware of the guarantee on taxation. The fact that some of them still seem to be unconvinced that the Lisbon treaty won't lead to an imposed change in Ireland's corporate tax rate is very interesting.

    Then you know what it most likely is? Just like the rest of the Irish people they've been told the truth and it's pretty convincing but there's a consistent and determined campaign of liars telling them that the corporation tax will be effected and this makes them unsure. It's the same as the creationist "teach the controversy" argument over evolution. Just because the liars won't shut the fcuk up doesn't mean there's a controversy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    But it is possible (merely possible, not a certainty) if the sample size is one.

    As long as the single sample is the famous one-handed economist.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,039 ✭✭✭force eleven


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Honestly, this is embarrassing for the entire nation. The EU asks us to vote on a treaty and the nuts come out of the woodwork and trick us into thinking it does all manner of sh!te, including that it allows the EU to raise or corporate tax and we refuse to listen to the sensible people telling us otherwise

    Our government then goes to Europe and gets a legally binding guarantee that "Nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon makes any change of any kind, for any Member State, to the extent or operation of the competence of the European Union in relation to taxation."............and we don't believe that either!!

    It's fcuking shameful is what it is

    Given the shennanigans our politicians have been invlolved in over the past 15 years, plus we keep having to vote on these treaties again and again, thats the shame here. You can't blame people for being utterly sceptical and apathetic -


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Given the shennanigans our politicians have been invlolved in over the past 15 years, plus we keep having to vote on these treaties again and again, thats the shame here. You can't blame people for being utterly sceptical and apathetic -

    I can't blame them for being sceptical with our government but these guarantees come from the EU, an organisation that would cease to exist if people got the idea that it didn't honour legally binding commitments.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭ro09


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    as opposed to Declan Ganley's (the messiah of the NO side, whose second coming is eagerly awaited) company

    which makes money from disasters and wars (Hello needless war Iraq)

    :rolleyes:

    Why does every argument against voting No revolve around Declan Ganley.
    It just seems like so immature.

    I am voting No because every time we sign a treaty into law we loose some of our own law making abilities, the ability to govern our own people in certain areas because all EU Law supersedes our Constitutional Law - Article 29 . 10 of our constitution. have a read.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭O'Morris


    Scofflaw wrote:
    The fact that the No proponents are reduced to this kind of quibbling promotion of barely possible uncertainty or outright lies is pretty telling.

    I honestly thought that with the veto and the guarantee that our low-corporate tax rate was universally agreed to be untouchable. That's why I'm genuinely surprised that is there any economist in the country who believes differently.

    Scofflaw wrote:
    I'm loath to characterise anyone as dishonest (bar people like COIR and Ganley, obviously), but there's obviously a degree of intellectual dishonesty involved in this kind of tactical "whatiffery". It's obvious that people are starting from a position of saying No, and then proceeding to clutch at any scrap of information that can possibly be used to cast doubt on the Treaty.

    It wasn't me who carried out that survey of the independent economists. From reading through the report it seems to have been carried out by people advocating a yes vote.

    Scofflaw wrote:
    It's very clear that these are not the reasons why No proponents are voting No -

    I've already said that taxation is not an issue for me. Just because I think it's interesting that 12.5% of independend economists were unable to answer no when asked if they believed the EU would impose a lower corporate tax rate on us doesn't mean that I agree with them. I don't believe we will be forced to lower our corporate tax rates as a result of Lisbon.

    Scofflaw wrote:
    I'm pretty certain, for example, that O'Morris doesn't really give a toss about the opinion of 12.5% of economists in some survey.

    I am very interested in their opinion. I'm very curious to know why 12.5% of independent economists surveyed do not feel convinced that our corporation tax rate is not as secure as we have told. Aren't you curious to know why those economists feel the way they do?

    Scofflaw wrote:
    Why not man up and argue your real position?

    I'm opposed to the Lisbon treaty because I don't want to see any further erosion of our national sovereignty. I want Ireland to remain an independent country and I want the majority of the laws affecting the Irish people to be made in a democratically elected Irish parliament which is representative of and accountable to the Irish people. I think we've handed over too much power to Europe already and I don't want us to hand over any more. I don't want us to continue down the path to a federal Europe.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Could it be because it was a legal question and that they not qualified lawyers with expertise in EU and International law? Perhaps 12.5% haven't read the treaty fully?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭ro09


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Honestly, this is embarrassing for the entire nation. The EU asks us to vote on a treaty and the nuts come out of the woodwork and trick us into thinking it does all manner of sh!te, including that it allows the EU to raise or corporate tax and we refuse to listen to the sensible people telling us otherwise

    Our government then goes to Europe and gets a legally binding guarantee that "Nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon makes any change of any kind, for any Member State, to the extent or operation of the competence of the European Union in relation to taxation."............and we don't believe that either!!

    It's fcuking shameful is what it is

    Yes lets do everything the EU wants us to do, I'm sure your right, we will never question anything or do anything to upset them or why even bother to vote on anything. YOU ARE THE NUT IF THIS IS YOUR ATTITUDE


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    ro09 wrote: »
    Yes lets do everything the EU wants us to do, I'm sure your right, we will never question anything or do anything to upset them or why even bother to vote on anything. YOU ARE THE NUT IF THIS IS YOUR ATTITUDE

    im not sure why you keep shouting with oversized fonts in all you posts? maybe you need to go spec savers??

    theres no need to twist what a poster said

    a question for you anyways:

    has the EU ever harmed this country?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭ro09


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    im not sure why you keep shouting with oversized fonts in all you posts? maybe you need to go spec savers??

    theres no need to twist what a poster said

    a question for you anyways:

    has the EU ever harmed this country?


    I think the EU is good. I am in favour of Free movement of goods , capital , and business, anything else is an interferance in a Countries Domestic affairs.

    Maybe i will go to specsavers my eyes are kind of sore today.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    ro09 wrote: »
    I think the EU is good. I am in favour of Free movement of goods , capital , and business, anything else is an interferance in a Countries Domestic affairs.

    Maybe i will go to specsavers my eyes are kind of sore today.

    ok so what exactly do you think in Lisbon

    "interferes" in Irish affairs

    :confused:

    what im trying to get you to do is talk about Lisbon not be attacking other members (i know it can be hard at times not to want to punch the other person :D)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    "To attempt to re-run a referendum as a means of reversing the democratic decision taken by the people would rightly be regarded as an affront" Dick Roche.







    Or for people who need specsavers help to watch videos I can summarise.

    It opens the door, in time, for Turkey which will give free movement to another eighty million people at a time when Ireland has hundreds of thousands of unemployed people.

    33 MEPS have formed a group to counter balance the yes campaign called the 'Europe of freedom and democracy'.

    By voting yes there may be no need to have any further referendums in the future.

    The French said no, they were ignored, the Dutch said no and they were ignored. The Irish said no and we're being bullied into voting again.

    If the Irish people vote no it will cause a referendum in Britain, which would be a fine democratic thing for the peoples of Europe to have an opportunity to stop and debate their future.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    squod wrote: »
    33 MEPS have formed a group to counter balance the yes campaign called the 'Europe of freedom and democracy'.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe_of_Freedom_and_Democracy

    lets see now 33 MEPS:


    13 of them are from UKIP (a xenophobic party which wants for UK to leave the EU, introduce death penalty, force nationalists to swear allegiance to queen and close the border between the north and south )

    none are from ireland

    zero are elected by the irish people


    more on these "nice" people here

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055683358


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    squod wrote: »
    If the Irish people vote no it will cause a referendum in Britain, which would be a fine democratic thing for the peoples of Europe to have an opportunity to stop and debate their future.

    Ah, now the whole reason. Basically, "it will give me great exposure in a UK referendum".

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    ei.sdraob wrote: »


    more on these "nice" people here

    Oh yeah we should vote for the 'nice' people. Fairy Queens don't do politcs.
    In case your missing something, some of our politicians aren't 'nice' either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    squod wrote: »
    It opens the door, in time, for Turkey which will give free movement to another eighty million people at a time when Ireland has hundreds of thousands of unemployed people.

    Turkey can come in perfectly well under the Nice rules.
    squod wrote: »
    33 MEPS have formed a group to counter balance the yes campaign called the 'Europe of freedom and democracy'.

    By voting yes there may be no need to have any further referendums in the future.

    Nope. The simplified revision procedure is extremely limited in what it can do - more or less, it can just change policy aims or move voting from unanimity to QMV/codecision in certain areas of the treaties only.

    Anything else requires a full treaty in the usual way.
    squod wrote: »
    The French said no, they were ignored, the Dutch said no and they were ignored. The Irish said no and we're being bullied into voting again.

    The French said No, and got concessions. The Dutch said No, and got concessions. The Constitution was defeated, and the whole 'constitutional' apparatus was dropped - Lisbon contains only the reforms, plus the changes the Dutch and French wanted (not all of what they wanted, but most, including the dropping of the constitutional aspects).

    The Irish voted No, and got concessions. There's a pattern here.
    squod wrote: »
    If the Irish people vote no it will cause a referendum in Britain, which would be a fine democratic thing for the peoples of Europe to have an opportunity to stop and debate their future.

    Not really - it would be an opportunity for hysteria at a scale we can only dream of matching.

    regards,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Scofflaw wrote: »

    The French said No, and got concessions. The Dutch said No, and got concessions. The Constitution was defeated, and the whole 'constitutional' apparatus was dropped - Lisbon contains only the reforms, plus the changes the Dutch and French wanted (not all of what they wanted, but most, including the dropping of the constitutional aspects).

    The Irish voted No, and got concessions. There's a pattern here.


    It's highly probable that if the population of Europe was asked to vote for Lisbon there would be an overwhelming no vote. That's the pattern there.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    squod wrote: »
    It's highly probable that if the population of Europe was asked to vote for Lisbon there would be an overwhelming no vote. That's the pattern there.

    You're entitled to that as a belief, but the numbers are against you. If you tot up everyone who voted on the Constitution and Lisbon, the scores are 27m Yes against 23m No.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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