Everything HPAT and medicine for 2010 (R1 points post #1247)

Zenith23

randylonghorn wrote: »

That's not much good for change-of-mind though ...

Junior, go to the log-in page on the CAO website here.

Beside where you would normally enter your application number / candidate ID, there is a "Help!" link ... click and follow the instructions.

Wouldn't that just give you your CAO number and not your HPAT application number?

randylonghorn

Zenith23 wrote: »

Wouldn't that just give you your CAO number and not your HPAT application number?

Oops!

I'm afraid I'm so used to people with the other problem around this forum that I jumped to the wrong conclusion without thinking about which thread I was in!

Mea maxima culpa! >.<

blogger 3000

jumpguy wrote: »

Any exact figure and source? I very much doubt that "loads" got in with less than 540, at the most. Only a few.

sorry for not carrying out a survey(sarcasm) but plenty got in with that points range, why else do you think so many with higher leaving cert results eg:580, 590, 600, lost out, the places must have gone somewhere

QueenOfLeon

aine92 wrote: »

I also read in the paper that last year there was a record number of guys who got in and very few girls!

As someone who has sat the hpat, I dont personally see how it favours guys, but I'll update that on Monday :rolleyes:

Theres a way higher percentage of boys that got in last year compared to other years. In my class there is pretty much a 50:50 ratio of boys and girls, whereas the year before us it was more like only 20% boys or so.

blogger 3000 wrote: »

ah no, the LC points haven't come down cos people with lower points are getting in at the expense of higher achievers.
I know lots of people in med in UCC an very few got 575 points which is what it was originally an what in my opinion it still should be.
550 points as the target is a big drop in points like, and there are loadsa people who got in with only 550 or less, the lowest was 510 an loads got in with only 520,530 an 540 aswell

I think its a better system. Anyone who gets over 520/530 is obviously intelligent and can handle a college course with some work. The only difference in points after that could be down to an unlucky mistake, 1 question on the paper that went wrong, 1 subject that the person isn't all that great at but still wouldn't need it for medicine.

I think its unfair that say, 1 person gets around 600 cos they have a talent in languages and get their A1s there, and another, who gets the A1s in science (more important for med) loses out cos their Irish isn't so strong. And yes, I know the leaving cert is just as much a test of your ability to learn, memorise, etc, but adding something that is at least related to the course you're going for (like the hpat, interviews, portfolios) take the pressure off doing well in some unnecessary subjects.

Leah6

'1f person gets around 600 cos they have a talent in language..'

To get 600 points you need to excel in both the sciences (given that you are required to have some of them as an entry requirement)and also languages given that Irish, English and generally French are core subjects in the Leaving cert. So it's neither accurate or fair to say this.

Anyhow, as languages are all about communication, then your comment, if true, would imply that the person who got the 600 would be a better communicator.

The sort of people we need in medicine are good scientists with good language skills so that they can communicate with their patients. People with a good spread of language and science subjects.

The HPAT does not do this. What we need is a system like they have in Cambridge and Oxford where they first do a test like the HPAT (BMAT). Applicants are then called for interview to see if they are good communicators/are able for the course etc. Then they are made a provisional offer outlining the grades they have to get in the A levels. Only if they meet the grades can they take up the place.

tracker-man

Leah6 wrote: »

To get 600 points you need to excel in both the sciences (given that you are required to have some of them as an entry requirement)and also languages given that Irish, English and generally French are core subjects in the Leaving cert. So it's neither accurate or fair to say this.

Well actually many people would do a fourth language and maybe history which also has lots of essay writing to get the points.

Leah6 wrote: »

Anyhow, as languages are all about communication, then your comment, if true, would imply that the person who got the 600 would be a better communicator.

I doubt that very much. In fact, you'll find that many of those who score 600 points are more introverted than those who score lower. They are able to learn off heaps of notes/books etc. but when it comes to a social setting they are like rabbits in headlights.

Leah6 wrote: »

The sort of people we need in medicine are good scientists with good language skills so that they can communicate with their patients.

I think there is too much emphasis now on all of this communication bull. Speaking to a consultant recently, he remarked how current med students are taught more communication than anatomy in the universities! I agree, personally I would prefer a Doctor who can cure me of my illness, not the Doctor who can gently tell me he cannot cure me :rolleyes: [/quote]

Leah6 wrote: »

The HPAT does not do this. What we need is a system like they have in Cambridge and Oxford where they first do a test like the HPAT (BMAT). Applicants are then called for interview to see if they are good communicators/are able for the course etc. Then they are made a provisional offer outlining the grades they have to get in the A levels. Only if they meet the grades can they take up the place.

I agree that we need an interview/personal statement for entry into medicine. If they can do it for Art courses why not medicine?!

Zenith23

Three days... eep!

zam

I'm not sure if an interview would necessarily work in Ireland. I know it's done for some arts subjects but medicine is seen as the top course, hardest to get into, etc. There could be a lot of nepotism and the such going on what with Ireland being such a small country.

wouldbedoc

The suspense is killing me!:eek:!Roll on Monday morning:

zam

wouldbedoc wrote: »

The suspense is killing me!:eek:!Roll on Monday morning:

I know! Put us out of our misery!!

whadabouchasir

tracker-man wrote: »

I doubt that very much. In fact, you'll find that many of those who score 600 points are more introverted than those who score lower. They are able to learn off heaps of notes/books etc. but when it comes to a social setting they are like rabbits in headlights.

What exactly are you basing this on?I'm doing medicine and there are a good few in my class that got 600 or there abouts.none of them are these introverted social retards that can't handle social situations.in fact i'd say that the go out more than most other students and they are (mostly) genuinely nice people that are easy to get on with and mad craic on a night out.

tracker-man wrote: »

I think there is too much emphasis now on all of this communication bull. Speaking to a consultant recently, he remarked how current med students are taught more communication than anatomy in the universities! I agree, personally I would prefer a Doctor who can cure me of my illness, not the Doctor who can gently tell me he cannot cure me :rolleyes:

You seem to be contradicting yourself here mate.First you say that you don't want people that are introverted and book smart to be doctors and then you go on to say that communication doesn't matter to Doctors,it's all about what you know.There is a reason why we are taught so much about communication and professionalism.It's because there are more malpractice suits for poor communication skills than anything else,and that includes negligence and poor clinical skills.

How about we all don't make wild assumptions about people we haven't met because of their Leaving Cert results?

almostnever

Good luck with the HPAT results everyone!

TowlieMcD

how does everyone know they're out on monday? is that what happened last year or is the date up somewhere?

*EDIT: Oh and whats this craic about candidate ID?? what happens if you cant find it?

stainluss

TowlieMcD wrote: »

how does everyone know they're out on monday? is that what happened last year or is the date up somewhere?

*EDIT: Oh and whats this craic about candidate ID?? what happens if you cant find it?

Its up, the 28th so they say

I presume if you cant find it in your old emails and you rang them and gave some personal details they will tell you.

wouldbedoc

TowlieMcD wrote: »

how does everyone know they're out on monday? is that what happened last year or is the date up somewhere?

*EDIT: Oh and whats this craic about candidate ID?? what happens if you cant find it?

On the HPAT-Ireland website under Uni Admission there's a timeline of important Hpat dates: last year they came out just before 6:00am!:eek:.
It's a love-hate relationship with the 28th at the moment:D

QueenOfLeon

Leah6 wrote: »

'1f person gets around 600 cos they have a talent in language..'

To get 600 points you need to excel in both the sciences (given that you are required to have some of them as an entry requirement)and also languages given that Irish, English and generally French are core subjects in the Leaving cert. So it's neither accurate or fair to say this.

To get 600 points, yes, you have to excel in languages/sciences/business...basically all the subjects you're doing. I wasn't talking about getting 600, i was talking about getting medicine.

Leah6 wrote: »

Anyhow, as languages are all about communication, then your comment, if true, would imply that the person who got the 600 would be a better communicator.

The sort of people we need in medicine are good scientists with good language skills so that they can communicate with their patients. People with a good spread of language and science subjects.

Being able to sit down and learn off an Irish essay, all your French grammar, and a bunch of notes on how many similes there are in a poem will not make any difference to how good you are at communicating with your patients. There is no leaving cert subject that can determine anyone's skills in this. You could find great communication skills in people who achieve less in the leaving cert, and then a high-achiever who would have no empathy for a patient. Not generalising, just saying.

I'm not saying the HPAT is any better at sorting out those who will be good doctors to those who are not...the effects won't be seen for another few years. But as the leaving cert doesn't help this, and there is a lot of positive evidence from other countries, the hpat is at least worth a shot. Some sort of interview system would be better, but that brings up a whole load of other problems.

randylonghorn

tracker-man wrote: »

I think there is too much emphasis now on all of this communication bull. Speaking to a consultant recently, he remarked how current med students are taught more communication than anatomy in the universities! I agree, personally I would prefer a Doctor who can cure me of my illness, not the Doctor who can gently tell me he cannot cure me :rolleyes:

Actually, I think the ability to communicate is very important to doctors (not as important as knowing their stuff medically, ofc, but close). I have seen patients unnecessarily scared silly because their doctor could not or did not explain their prognosis properly, nor make any attempt to reassure them when needed. I'm sure you wouldn't argue that the stress engendered is in any way helpful to the patient or to the process of healing.

That said, the kind of communication involved in doctor / patient interaction is far more dependent on some ability to empathise with and relate to the patient as a person rather than on the ability to communicate effectively in several languages (an ability which, it should be said, is certainly not a disadvantage either ... it's simply irrelevant in most cases).

It's that basic ability at an interpersonal level which is very hard to test for. The HPAT claims to do so to some extent; I'm not so sure how successful it is.

By the way, I am making absolutely no assumptions here about those who get very high points in the LC and interpersonal abilities: I have known such people to be the life and soul of every group they ever encountered, and to be highly empathic as well (sometimes too much so, in fact, when confronted with the harsh realities of life and death in medicine). I have also know the opposite to be the case, sometimes to an extreme extent.

To attempt to argue a correlation one way or the other between high points and interpersonal skills is to position oneself on extremely shaky ground, imho, and I certainly have no intention of going there!

Zenith23

TowlieMcD wrote: »

how does everyone know they're out on monday? is that what happened last year or is the date up somewhere?

*EDIT: Oh and whats this craic about candidate ID?? what happens if you cant find it?

http://www.hpat-ireland.acer.edu.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=9&Itemid=7

Hope that clears that up

Piste

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Being able to sit down and learn off an Irish essay, all your French grammar, and a bunch of notes on how many similes there are in a poem will not make any difference to how good you are at communicating with your patients. There is no leaving cert subject that can determine anyone's skills in this. You could find great communication skills in people who achieve less in the leaving cert, and then a high-achiever who would have no empathy for a patient. Not generalising, just saying.

I'm not saying the HPAT is any better at sorting out those who will be good doctors to those who are not...the effects won't be seen for another few years. But as the leaving cert doesn't help this, and there is a lot of positive evidence from other countries, the hpat is at least worth a shot. Some sort of interview system would be better, but that brings up a whole load of other problems.

Yeah but being good at languages and being able to learn off new words is extremely helpful for all the latin you have to learn for anatomy, new terms in physiology and all the drug names in pharmacology. For me studying for anatomy is reminiscent of learning French/German/Irish vocab, if I hadn't gotten to so used to it for the JC and LC I would have found anatomy extremely tough going. The ability to learn off and quickly recall huge chunks of information is extremely important in medicine- as much as effective communication, I think- and the LC prepares students well for this.

QueenOfLeon

Piste wrote: »

Yeah but being good at languages and being able to learn off new words is extremely helpful for all the latin you have to learn for anatomy, new terms in physiology and all the drug names in pharmacology. For me studying for anatomy is reminiscent of learning French/German/Irish vocab, if I hadn't gotten to so used to it for the JC and LC I would have found anatomy extremely tough going. The ability to learn off and quickly recall huge chunks of information is extremely important in medicine- as much as effective communication, I think- and the LC prepares students well for this.

I'd agree that the type of learning needed for the LC is very useful for all the material you need to learn in medicine. It was the statement that doing well in languages makes you a better communicator to patients that i was disagreeing with

Leah6

The purpose of language is to communicate!!

Language enables doctor's to relate to and empathisise with a patient. While some doctors have highly developed interpersonal skills and rely less on language, a combination of both is best in my opinion.

QueenOfLeon

Leah6 wrote: »

The purpose of language is to communicate!!

Language enables doctor's to relate to and empathisise with a patient. While some doctors have highly developed interpersonal skills and rely less on language, a combination of both is best in my opinion.

Leaving cert language courses are focussed on grammar, vocabulary, the ability to learn off large chunks of material of a different language than your own. The only part that needs communication skills is the oral...and even there, your personality, whether friendly or not, doesn't come into it all that much. Having fluent French isn't going to make you any more empathetic, friendly, caring and helpful to your patients.

Zenith23

Leah6 wrote: »

The purpose of language is to communicate!!

Language enables doctor's to relate to and empathisise with a patient. While some doctors have highly developed interpersonal skills and rely less on language, a combination of both is best in my opinion.

I agree that the purpose of language is to communicate, yes. However, I'd doubt that a person who's really good at both the English and Irish Language has any real advantage over a person who is really good at English only in terms of communication skills and empathy.

In short; I think that decent ability in only one language is sufficient to allow for the full potential of ones communication skills.

JSK 252

What do ye think are chances of getting medicine with 580 points with a decent HPAT ( nothing extraordinary)?

s0ur_cherry

JSK 252 wrote: »

What do ye think are chances of getting medicine with 580 points with a decent HPAT ( nothing extraordinary)?

I'd say fairly decent chances, that's worth 556 i think and it was around 715 last year so you'd prob need around 160? and 150 was 50th percentile.. i think..

JSK 252

s0ur_cherry wrote: »

I'd say fairly decent chances, that's worth 556 i think and it was around 715 last year so you'd prob need around 160? and 150 was 50th percentile.. i think..

Its really hard to tell. Preparation was based on HPAT practice booklets which I did ok in, nothing extraordinary, getting 3/5 right on average so who knows.

H2student

Well there's about 4-5 days left and I'm really doubting I'll get medicine based on my LC performance alone. Just wondering, what other courses do you guys have below medicine in the Cao form.

Zenith23

H2student wrote: »

Well there's about 4-5 days left and I'm really doubting I'll get medicine based on my LC performance alone. Just wondering, what other courses do you guys have below medicine in the Cao form.

Dentistry, Pharmacy, Phisiotherapy, Science and Human Health & Disease are mine.

blogger 3000

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

To get 600 points, yes, you have to excel in languages/sciences/business...basically all the subjects you're doing. I wasn't talking about getting 600, i was talking about getting medicine.



Being able to sit down and learn off an Irish essay, all your French grammar, and a bunch of notes on how many similes there are in a poem will not make any difference to how good you are at communicating with your patients. There is no leaving cert subject that can determine anyone's skills in this. You could find great communication skills in people who achieve less in the leaving cert, and then a high-achiever who would have no empathy for a patient. Not generalising, just saying.

I'm not saying the HPAT is any better at sorting out those who will be good doctors to those who are not...the effects won't be seen for another few years. But as the leaving cert doesn't help this, and there is a lot of positive evidence from other countries, the hpat is at least worth a shot. Some sort of interview system would be better, but that brings up a whole load of other problems.

what sort of problems does an interview throw up? in my view its way a better idea than the hpat and wheres the evidence from the other countries that aptitude tests work, theres lots of controversy in every country over aptitude tests without any clear evidence that theyre producing good doctors eg: theres big controversy in the US at the moment over the standardised aptitude tests (or SATs)
and who says the HPAT actually proves that you have good communication, section2 is the only part thats supposed to do this but it seems to be more of a vocabulary test than anything else, if youre good at english you can do well in section2.
Call me old fashioned but i believe you still can't beat the tried and tested leaving cert method that was there pre 2009. It's fair and more importantly it takes dedication and a strong academic ability which are the most important things if youre gonna be a doctor, i mean theres no point in having good communication if you don't have the dedication to do the work and the academic ability to learn the material and be able to apply it to diagnosing patients and knowing what treatments to give them.