Everything HPAT and medicine for 2010 (R1 points post #1247)

QueenOfLeon

Zenith23 wrote: »

Just curious, but what do you reckon the points range will be for Med this year.

I'm on 719 and I'm quite uncertain

Like any other course, no one can guarantee that you will or won't get in. You'll just have to wait another 3 weeks or so! I'm sure you know from last year that this would have gotten you a place in UCC, RCSI or NUIG. The general consensus is that there won't be too much of a change in points, as the hpat percentiles were very similar between the 2 years, and the bell curve of points is roughly the same every year. I would say you'd be ok for at least 1 of the colleges, it'll just depend on whether the higher ones move down a couple of points, or the lower ones go up.

Hookie

Ugh i hate waiting.. getting very impatient now! Just wanna know if Im doing medicine so I can get stationary shopping already!!

On another note, has anyone read any medicine/doctor-themed books at all?! Came across a list of a few on some GEM blog so I think I'll hit the book shop to get something to keep me occupied for the next few weeks! :rolleyes:

Zenith23

Hookie wrote: »

Ugh i hate waiting.. getting very impatient now! Just wanna know if Im doing medicine so I can get stationary shopping already!!

On another note, has anyone read any medicine/doctor-themed books at all?! Came across a list of a few on some GEM blog so I think I'll hit the book shop to get something to keep me occupied for the next few weeks! :rolleyes:

Ah! Would you mind listing a few?

james5001

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Theres a few factors in how people improved between the year they did the leaving cert and this year. Obviously there was a lot less pressure on the people doing the hpat while not in Leaving cert, as the hpat is around the time of the mocks, just before the orals, when schoolwork and study is piling up. As well as that, doing it the second time round means you've already had experience of the exam, conditions and the time allowance. Most courses are only offering practice and advice on time management which you'll already have experienced last year.

I know a lot of people who resat the hpat while in college and did a lot better without doing any prep courses. You can't stop people from preparing for it by doing practice tests, but at least acer aren't releasing the actual hpat exams so anything else published are only going to be rough guidelines. But ya, people are going to splash out on whatever courses claim to improve your hpat. Its impossible to tell, however, if its a person's natural aptitude for the exam or the preparation course that gives them a high result, as theres such a variation in the statistics.

Id agree with that to an extent. I do believe the experience of repeating the hpat is a factor in the increase in percentile. I also think the less stress is an important influence on your score. But when you say that most courses are ''only'' offering practice and advice on time management, it is here i disagree. practice tests and keeping on time are key in improving your score, i believe.The practice course I did, to tell you the truth, was excellent. It covered those 2 aspects brilliantly and it showed me different methods on how to complete questions. I know there is no 'proof' at the moment regarding the positive effects of repeating the hpat exams and also doing a practice course, but from my point of view, the course i did was a huge boost. I got 52nd or 53rd percentile last year, compared to 98th this year. my friend did the same course and got 100th percentile this year, compared to around 50 last year. I would rate the importance of certain factors in this order:
1: stress
2: practice, experience and time management
3:quicker methods of doing questions

QueenOfLeon

james5001 wrote: »

But when you say that most courses are ''only'' offering practice and advice on time management, it is here i disagree. practice tests and keeping on time are key in improving your score, i believe.The practice course I did, to tell you the truth, was excellent. It covered those 2 aspects brilliantly and it showed me different methods on how to complete questions.

I have no experience of the preparation courses, I did the hpat in 2009 and am only going on what I've heard from others Maybe last year the quality of the courses weren't as good as the hpat had never been sat before? I really don't know but the few I know who took a course said it was mainly things they could have learned themselves, like time management, and then some extra aptitude tests. Of course, 1 test could have had a lower standard than the other.

james5001 wrote: »

I know there is no 'proof' at the moment regarding the positive effects of repeating the hpat exams and also doing a practice course, but from my point of view, the course i did was a huge boost.

I don't think anyone will ever be able to show the effect that prep courses have. People that claim the prep courses were to thank for their high score may have got that on their own, and vice versa, people who got lower scores may not improve with any course. Its not like academic exams where a student's progress is monitored over years.

james5001

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

I have no experience of the preparation courses, I did the hpat in 2009 and am only going on what I've heard from others Maybe last year the quality of the courses weren't as good as the hpat had never been sat before? I really don't know but the few I know who took a course said it was mainly things they could have learned themselves, like time management, and then some extra aptitude tests. Of course, 1 test could have had a lower standard than the other.


I don't think anyone will ever be able to show the effect that prep courses have. People that claim the prep courses were to thank for their high score may have got that on their own, and vice versa, people who got lower scores may not improve with any course. Its not like academic exams where a student's progress is monitored over years.

Id say the quality of the courses was very good, because the same test is in australia and the UK, therefore the material would be up to date. And no, I do believe that my course that i did could improve ANYONES percentile, as it shows you how easy it is to improve your score. Also, I do believe that there are courses out there that are mediocre. I did another course and found it alright, but not very good. So there are differences in quality out there

Hookie

Zenith23 wrote: »

Ah! Would you mind listing a few?

The Intern Blues, Robert Marion
Direct Red - A Surgeons Story, Gabriel Weston
Complications, Atul Gawande
How Doctors Think, Jerome Groopman
Trust Me I'm a Junior Doctor, Max Pemberton

Dunno what they're like, apparently the first one really makes you think twice about studying medicine! Its set in the 80's or something though. I just bought the last one, it's a diary-type story through a docs first year and its meant to be really good. Think its quite funny too.. perfect summer reading

QueenOfLeon

Theres a lot of blogs that you can read, real life up to date experiences of med students, interns, junior doctors and doctors in specialty training.

http://imamedicalstudentgetmeoutofhere.blogspot.com/ ....Blog from a med student in 3rd year up to final year, he then moved to here after qualifying. Really interesting blog, read it from the start if you have the time!

Really like this one: http://thejuniordoctor.blogspot.com/
Hasn't been updated in a while but theres loads of posts to read back through, going from his time as a Senior House Officer to anaesthesiology training. If you thought anaesthetics would be a boring field, this one could change your mind

Irish one, written by boardsies (I think): http://twoweeksonatrolley.blogspot.com/

Theres loads more but some may appeal to different people more than others, so theres a fairly good list on the side of this page that you can pick and choose from

jumpguy

To add to QueenOfLeon's fine list:

http://internal-optimist.blogspot.com/

Favourite medical blog ever (then again, one of the few I've properly read and followed <_<). Goes into wonderful details in most of his posts about the surgeries, medications or procedures.

pr0

why has no one mentioned that the HPAT was almost or exactly the same as last year. I know its hard to remember but Im sure a large ammount of the stuff was the exact same. Mabye the stimulus was the exact same and the questions a little different I cant recall.

QueenOfLeon

pr0 wrote: »

why has no one mentioned that the HPAT was almost or exactly the same as last year. I know its hard to remember but Im sure a large ammount of the stuff was the exact same. Mabye the stimulus was the exact same and the questions a little different I cant recall.

I have heard this from someone who re-sat it alright, I'd imagine this is why they're so strict on no question booklets leaving the exam hall. I don't think it would make much of a difference, I for one could barely remember any of the questions, let alone the 4 possible answers, after leaving it. As well as that you don't know for sure which one was right, plus if you're resitting the hpat you wouldn't really be able to trust your answers from first time round!

pr0

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

I have heard this from someone who re-sat it alright, I'd imagine this is why they're so strict on no question booklets leaving the exam hall. I don't think it would make much of a difference, I for one could barely remember any of the questions, let alone the 4 possible answers, after leaving it. As well as that you don't know for sure which one was right, plus if you're resitting the hpat you wouldn't really be able to trust your answers from first time round!

Well yeah it wasnt an advantage at all , I mean you would be a complete freak/genious if you remembered all the questions.

QueenOfLeon

pr0 wrote: »

Well yeah it wasnt an advantage at all , I mean you would be a complete freak/genious if you remembered all the questions.

Wouldn't be surprised if the patterns were the exact same actually, as no matter when/how often you did them you'd still have to work them out from scratch.

The_Fear_1993

i got in the 53% and got 154 points and i dont no whether i should repeat or go on and do a science course and do the h-pat next year again???
wat sort of leavin would you need to have if u wanted to get in on a science degree

QueenOfLeon

The_Fear_1993 wrote: »

i got in the 53% and got 154 points and i dont no whether i should repeat or go on and do a science course and do the h-pat next year again???
wat sort of leavin would you need to have if u wanted to get in on a science degree

Anything from 325 to 440 (going on last years points) depending on the college. With a really good leaving cert you may still have a chance of getting in though? 600 points will give you 714, 590 gives 712, 580 gives 710...

briankirby

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Anything from 325 to 440 (going on last years points) depending on the college. With a really good leaving cert you may still have a chance of getting in though? 600 points will give you 714, 590 gives 712, 580 gives 710...

I have 706.Sickened when i got the hpat result-150.:o

Hannah Emilie

i'm in a v.similar situation! i got in the 75th percentile but i'm REALLY not confident at ALL bout my l.c results. Not meaning to sound too pessimistic but i know i didn't get medicine so if i get science am i better off doing that and then attempting to go into medicine or wud i be better off repeating?? PLEASE HELP!! :(

gem2010

Well, if it makes you feel better, I didn't get in with my leaving cert back in 2006 (got 540 points) I did a chemistry degree which I am SO glad I did, wouldn't change anything, got to go to California for 3rd year on exchange, and met my boyfriend of 3 years... AAND, just got an offer for graduate medicine on thursday, HAPPY DAYS. slightly older and more able to handle a medicine degree now IMO so all has worked out for the best.

Completely up to you of course, if you were to repeat the LC it's just another year, or go for the science and get in the graduate way (...just don't forget it will cost ~100 thousand to do it that way) don't worry too much, everything happens for a reason.

BEST OF LUCK in your decision, you're only young and will get there eventually.

QueenOfLeon

Hannah Emilie wrote: »

i'm in a v.similar situation! i got in the 75th percentile but i'm REALLY not confident at ALL bout my l.c results. Not meaning to sound too pessimistic but i know i didn't get medicine so if i get science am i better off doing that and then attempting to go into medicine or wud i be better off repeating?? PLEASE HELP!! :(

Well done on the hpat! I think you'd be better off repeating if its the leaving cert that drags you down. If you think you'd still be interested in medicine after a 4 year science degree, you have to sit the GAMSAT (a fairly long and apparently really tough exam) and then pay for your 4 years of grad medicine. Its 8 years in college, 8 years of normal expenses plus paying thousands for the graduate entry course.

If you repeat its only adding on one year to your 5 or 6 year medical degree. It might seem like the end of the world now to have to go back to school while your friends go to college but you should be able to improve on the LC and college isn't such a great place if you're not happy with your course. Fingers crossed til you get your results though!

gem2010

The GAMSAT is an absolute BITCH of an exam... if you thought the HPAT was bad... this one's ALL DAY LONG and, in my opinion (having done both), a lot tougher.

Must admit, if I hadn't been successful first time around (phew) It would have taken a lot to persuade me to re-take that GODAWFUL exam.

...something to think about...

blogger 3000

Hannah Emilie wrote: »

i'm in a v.similar situation! i got in the 75th percentile but i'm REALLY not confident at ALL bout my l.c results. Not meaning to sound too pessimistic but i know i didn't get medicine so if i get science am i better off doing that and then attempting to go into medicine or wud i be better off repeating?? PLEASE HELP!! :(

i wudnt trust that gamsat like, we all know the HPAT is a bit of a lottery but at least if you dont do extraordinary in it you still hav a chance if your LC is good but i've read that when deciding on applicants for GEM, the gamsat is the be all and end all. you havta be unreal in the gamsat or else you dont hav a chance, you wudnt wana do a 4 year degreee only to realise you cant get into med cos u mite be bad at the gamsat, its a big gamble and if it doesnt pay off, youre in a very tricky situation

blogger 3000

A Neurotic wrote: »

The Independent had a serious anti-HPAT campaign last year, so I wouldn't be too taken with any of its claims. Nothing has been proven.

EDIT: Just to add, demand for medicine is apparently down 9% this year, and other health science courses are up, probably as a result of poor HPAT performers changing their CAO forms after they got their HPAT results. I'm not sure, but I don't think this will correlate with a drop in points.

they did not hav an anti HPAT campaign, they just showed the facts with all the people that were unfairly denied a place in med just cos they did badly in this unproven exam, any doctor or medical expert will tell you that its a ridiculous exam,
did you see the times had an article a few weeks where they tested various doctors with the hpat and the only ones that succeeded were graduate entry students who had done these types of tests before yet even tho the others did poorly, theyre still perfect doctors,
are the times serious anti-hpat campaigners too?

A Neurotic

blogger 3000 wrote: »

they did not hav an anti HPAT campaign, they just showed the facts with all the people that were unfairly denied a place in med just cos they did badly in this unproven exam, any doctor or medical expert will tell you that its a ridiculous exam,
did you see the times had an article a few weeks where they tested various doctors with the hpat and the only ones that succeeded were graduate entry students who had done these types of tests before yet even tho the others did poorly, theyre still perfect doctors,
are the times serious anti-hpat campaigners too?

I wouldn't be too keen on defending the HPAT (in fact I'd be quite skeptical about the whole thing too), but The Independent's campaign last year was a bit much. They didn't just "show the facts", they put their own slant on things by interviewing clearly biased parties and running sob stories on grim-faced 600-pointers who failed in the HPAT.

As I said, I'm no great champion of the HPAT (though I do owe my presence in med school to it, so I'm biased), I just hate knee-jerk "scandal" reactions from newspapers, when the viability of the new testing system still hasn't been proven either way.

EDIT: Sorry, missed your second point there. It was my belief that the HPAT was introduced specifically because of those doctors, and because it was felt that they were lacking a certain form of aptitude. Again, I have no idea if that's true, but if it was, it shouldn't be surprising at all that many current doctors wouldn't do very well in the HPAT. Circular logic!

Hannah Emilie

If i do end up doing sci in tcd i was wondering if anyone knows if i can do chemistry as part of my credits without having done it as a l.c subject?? i can't seem to find this out anywhere!

QueenOfLeon

Hannah Emilie wrote: »

If i do end up doing sci in tcd i was wondering if anyone knows if i can do chemistry as part of my credits without having done it as a l.c subject?? i can't seem to find this out anywhere!

I'm fairly sure you can pick whatever science subjects you want to do whether or not you did them for lc, thats what I know from other colleges anyway.

blogger 3000 wrote: »

they did not hav an anti HPAT campaign, they just showed the facts with all the people that were unfairly denied a place in med just cos they did badly in this unproven exam, any doctor or medical expert will tell you that its a ridiculous exam

I agree with A Neurotic here, they made a massive big deal of all the 600 point-ers who didn't get their place. They didn't mention, however, all the people on 550 etc who managed to get in, who wouldn't have done so before. I don't think theres any difference in intelligence between people who get in the mid to late 500s, any of those would be capable of studying medicine so I think the HPAT is a good idea to have another way to seperate people out. Just because those doctors who did badly in the HPAT are fully qualified and experienced doesn't mean that they're good at dealing with patients, which is a fairly big part of being a "good" doctor.

whadabouchasir

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

I agree with A Neurotic here, they made a massive big deal of all the 600 point-ers who didn't get their place.

i'd agree too,i don't think that just because you got 600 points in the LC you are automatically suited to medicine.If you got 600 points and didn't get medicine then you probably got around 150 or lower in the Hpat which is average at best.Do you really think that someone who scores below average in a test specifically designed to test for an aptitude for medicine would make a good doctor?

gem2010

blogger 3000 wrote: »

i wudnt trust that gamsat like, we all know the HPAT is a bit of a lottery but at least if you dont do extraordinary in it you still hav a chance if your LC is good but i've read that when deciding on applicants for GEM, the gamsat is the be all and end all. you havta be unreal in the gamsat or else you dont hav a chance, you wudnt wana do a 4 year degreee only to realise you cant get into med cos u mite be bad at the gamsat, its a big gamble and if it doesnt pay off, youre in a very tricky situation

I wouldn't say that necessarily. Having done both, I can say that you can definitely 'study' more and prepare more for the gamsat whereas the HPAT is much more just assessing your aptitude (to a degree). Having done a science degree (rather than arts for eg) I can say that I definitely had an edge for the science section of gamsat although doing english or law would certainly give people an edge for the essays section etc. I got a 62 first time (enough for UCD, UCC and UL ...RCSI round zero cutoffs are 64) however, I know of one girl who had no science background (science section is worth 50%) and that section really pulled her down in the gamsat last year, I think first time she got 57 overall (enough for UL only)... anyways, she took a year out and brushed up on her science, retook the gamsat and her score jumped up to 66 (WOWZERS enough for anywhere and some!)... SOOO what i'm saying is, your gamsat score can reflect on how much effort you put into the preparation of it, this girl went from a very mediocre score to an exemplary score as an example. You can keep your score for two years so what alot of people do is do the exam in 3rd year of your degree as a 'practice run' and if they don't get enough then they redo it in fourth year.

EDIT:in fact she tells her story here: http://doc2be.ie/category/gamsat-2/page/2/

bnm

whadabouchasir wrote: »

i'd agree too,i don't think that just because you got 600 points in the LC you are automatically suited to medicine.If you got 600 points and didn't get medicine then you probably got around 150 or lower in the Hpat which is average at best.Do you really think that someone who scores below average in a test specifically designed to test for an aptitude for medicine would make a good doctor?

What proof is there to suggest that a good HPAT score correlates with good clinical skills? I'm very familiar with all the propaganda the State have bombarded us with, believe me, but you have to keep in mind that we've yet to experience a Doctor who fits this "ideal", thus, how do we know he/she will be a "good doctor"? Outline to me the qualities of "a good doctor". Obviously, competent listening skills are a must, a sympathetic character etc. etc; but ultimately, our qualities of preference in regard to a practitioner's character and/or personality vary. For example, extrovert or introvert? There is clinical proof to suggest that doctors of both these varieties succeed and win the praise of patients. Similarly, audacious or prudent? Again, both can excell. What type of doctor is the HPAT creating? Will we have a generic brand of practitioner in years to come?

I'm aware of the copious amount of work and study required to graduate med school, and i've seen extremely intelligent students with exceptionally high brain capacities struggle with the sheer volume of information they are required to regurgitate. Most of us agree that the LC is a memory test of sorts, thus I question how a student with say, 530 points and a very good HPAT score, will handle the workload that has been previously managed by someone with upwards of 580/590 points. Call me a cynic perhaps but I'm a firm believer in the old method. Unjust, it may have been, but it produced fairly competent practitioners in my opinion.

I'll admit, it's absolutely possible that the new breed of doctors will outrun the old....but personally, I'm somewhat sceptical.

Sorry about this rant. It wasn't actually aimed at you in particular, whadabouchasir, just I find I can't stop myself once I get going on the HPAT! Your views are equally, if not more justifiable I'm sure!

HQvhs

bnm wrote: »

I'm aware of the copious amount of work and study required to graduate med school, and i've seen extremely intelligent students with exceptionally high brain capacities struggle with the sheer volume of information they are required to regurgitate. Most of us agree that the LC is a memory test of sorts, thus I question how a student with say, 530 points and a very good HPAT score, will handle the workload that has been previously managed by someone with upwards of 580/590 points. Call me a cynic perhaps but I'm a firm believer in the old method. Unjust, it may have been, but it produced fairly competent practitioners in my opinion.

I know people with 530 in medicine who handle the workload just fine. Equally, I know people with 580, 590 in medicine who also handle the workload fine. There are also people on both ends of the scale who don't handle the workload well either. It goes both ways. The most important thing isn't just memory - it's also understanding, recognising patterns and most importantly being interested and dedicated. If you can do this, you'll remember things easier. What's the point in memorising a useless stream of facts?

blogger 3000

whadabouchasir wrote: »

i'd agree too,i don't think that just because you got 600 points in the LC you are automatically suited to medicine.If you got 600 points and didn't get medicine then you probably got around 150 or lower in the Hpat which is average at best.Do you really think that someone who scores below average in a test specifically designed to test for an aptitude for medicine would make a good doctor?

thats a fair point but you havta look at it the other way round too. I mean is someone that gets 530 or 540 in the LC but does well at the HPAT more likely to be a good docor than someone who gets 600 and does badly in the HPAT?
I know the HPAT is supposed to weed out the people who aren't suited to career in medicine but there's no proof that it does that. The only section that has any real relevance to medicine is section 2 but that can be seen more of a test of vocabulary at times with all the different language they use to confuse the candidate.
It could be argued that someone who gets 580,590, 600 is more suited because they've shown the hard work and perseverance that it takes to get that many points so they have work ethic to do medicine and medicine is all about hard work and endeavor