Everything HPAT and medicine for 2010 (R1 points post #1247)

sheep-go-baa

I got a book on psychometric testing to day as a christmas pressie (sign of the times eh?) so anyone else doing this kind of prep?

cantona56

HPAT is a loada balls Anne-Marie:D:D....should never have been brought in tho i think, seriously!...you can argue that it levels the playing field as regards money but it works both ways!!...i know a few people who went to ordinary schools and worked their asses off, got 565+ and still didn't get in!

Lots of people have their juries out on the Hpat, including most of the countries top consultants from stuff i read in the papers at the time of offers. Its a subjective exam crammed into 1 hour or so and there are too many variables that can go wrong on the day like sickness, nerves, family issues etc!!

Australia have criticized us for starting to use it and have since gotten rid of it ( or are in the process of it). Wont be surprised if the hp;at is history in a few years!...hope your enjoyin your xmas AM!!

Calum196

The main problem I find with the HPAT is the element of luck which does come onto play. I know someone who got 575 in the leaving cert and ended up 1 point short. So if he had gotten one lucky guess he would have gotten in. It takes a hell of a lot of work and dedication to get 570+ (grind school or no grind school), therefore people willing to work at that level should be allowed their place.

Because of what happened last year as regards precentiles and cutoff points many people are now forgetting notions of getting in on 520/530. Most people will be looking to get in with 600 points. Its a ot easier to predict and control your leaving cert points than it is hpat points. 560+155=715. It frustrates me than the person who gets 150 in the hpat doesnt get in.

Also the hpat is in no way getting rid of emotional robots.

theowen

Calum196 wrote: »

The main problem I find with the HPAT is the element of luck which does come onto play. I know someone who got 575 in the leaving cert and ended up 1 point short. So if he had gotten one lucky guess he would have gotten in. It takes a hell of a lot of work and dedication to get 570+ (grind school or no grind school), therefore people willing to work at that level should be allowed their place.

Because of what happened last year as regards precentiles and cutoff points many people are now forgetting notions of getting in on 520/530. Most people will be looking to get in with 600 points. Its a ot easier to predict and control your leaving cert points than it is hpat points. 560+155=715. It frustrates me than the person who gets 150 in the hpat doesnt get in.

Also the hpat is in no way getting rid of emotional robots.

Perhaps interviews are the next step.

whadabouchasir

cantona56 wrote: »

HPAT is a loada balls Anne-Marie:D:D....

I'd agree with you there.We're only using the HPAT because the colleges can't be bothered to make up their own aptitude test or invent some new admissions process.

HQvhs

whadabouchasir wrote: »

I'd agree with you there.We're only using the HPAT because the colleges can't be bothered to make up their own aptitude test or invent some new admissions process.

To be fair, designing admissions exams is neither easy nor cheap. A lot of medical entry exams take on the format of the HPAT. We're hardly going to re-invent the wheel just for 6 small medical schools in one small country. Chances are, whatever they develop would be worse than the HPAT.

To give an example of how much effort goes into setting exams, the NBME in America, which controls the USMLEs (licensing exams for medical students and doctors) spends millions developing, tweaking and designing their exams. We cannot compete.

Anyway, I don't disagree that the HPAT has flaws, but I believe ultimately we will get better doctors out of it And at the very least, it'll clamp down on the ridiculous situation where up to 40% of new entrants into medical school were LC repeat students.

whadabouchasir

HQvhs wrote: »

To be fair, designing admissions exams is neither easy nor cheap..

But it costs 90 euro to sit it so they're passing the cost on to the applicant.If they were going to borrow an admissons test off another country and then charge us for it then they would have been able to make their own one.The Hpat I did ( last year) wasn't even developed for ireland it was just the australian one with a different name.

HQvhs wrote: »

Anyway, I don't disagree that the HPAT has flaws, but I believe ultimately we will get better doctors out of it And at the very least, it'll clamp down on the ridiculous situation where up to 40% of new entrants into medical school were LC repeat students.

If it's so great why are they phasing it out in Australia?The only reason it was brought in was to reduce the number of repeat students getting in and to restore the gender balance.I don't think any psychimetric test is ideal.we really need some sort of interview process.

HQvhs

whadabouchasir wrote: »

But it costs 90 euro to sit it so they're passing the cost on to the applicant.If they were going to borrow an admissons test off another country and then charge us for it then they would have been able to make their own one.The Hpat I did ( last year) wasn't even developed for ireland it was just the australian one with a different name.

Because someone has to pay for it, and lord knows the government and the universities won't! But also, if it was free then a lot of people would do it just for the sake of it, and it would be a logistical nightmare!
How would you propose we just develop one? It takes years, a lot of expertise and tonnes of research to design any sort of admissions exam. We just can't justify that kind of expenditure for 6 small medical schools.
And so what if it was an Australian exam? Australians hardly think different to us or anyone else, we're culturally very similar.
Also, we also take into account the LC, and weight it far more then the HPAT so unlike the Australians, we aren't relying almost solely on the HPAT.

If it's so great why are they phasing it out in Australia?The only reason it was brought in was to reduce the number of repeat students getting in and to restore the gender balance.I don't think any psychimetric test is ideal.we really need some sort of interview process.

I'm sorry, I hadn't heard they were. I did a quick google and all I could find was a report by the AMA dated in July 2006 opposing the sole use of psychometric testing for medicine admission. There was nothing to suggest that it was actually being phased out, however I probably didn't search well enough.
Are those reasons bad in of themselves? Also it did ease the points race a little, though you'll always find people who will dispute that.
Coupling an aptitude test, which measures suitability and controls for factors such as socioeconomic background and subjects, with the LC, a target based exam which is focused on memory and work ethic is, I think, a fairly decent system.

Sure, it could be better, and there are always going to be teething issues, but I honestly believe it's an improvement.

Calum196

HQvhs wrote: »

Anyway, I don't disagree that the HPAT has flaws, but I believe ultimately we will get better doctors out of it And at the very least, it'll clamp down on the ridiculous situation where up to 40% of new entrants into medical school were LC repeat students.

Is that statistic correct ? It will be interesting to see if it changes this year. I cant see how it will decrease... if anything repeats have an extra advantage of being through the hpat before or may even not have to worry about the hpat if there score was good enough.

Granted I am a repeat myself, but I cant see the problem with repeats getting in. For one they are clearly dedicated and are willing to put in the effort. I think the old system of needing to get 570+ was fair. Everyone knew exactly where they stood and the level of work necessary. Now we have a 715 figure in our head, but we still have this wishy washy hpat that could go either way.

Has there been any word on the number of applicants so far ?

whadabouchasir

HQvhs wrote: »

Because someone has to pay for it, and lord knows the government and the universities won't! How would you propose we just develop one? It takes years, a lot of expertise and tonnes of research to design any sort of admissions exam. We just can't justify that kind of expenditure for 6 small medical schools.

DIT have an aptitude test just for architechture.So if one college can do it for one course then it could be done for medicine when you consider that the applicants would be paying for it.I don't think that psychometruc tests are the answer though.Medicine is such a wide field that one 2.5 hour test could not possibly asses all of the different traits that would be required.We could easily conduct interviews for the same cost.in australia they use interviews as well as the aptitude test.

HQvhs

whadabouchasir wrote: »

DIT have an aptitude test just for architechture.So if one college can do it for one course then it could be done for medicine when you consider that the applicants would be paying for it.I don't think that psychometruc tests are the answer though.Medicine is such a wide field that one 2.5 hour test could not possibly asses all of the different traits that would be required.We could easily conduct interviews for the same cost.in australia they use interviews as well as the aptitude test.

My point isn't that we couldn't do it, it's that if we did it probably wouldn't be better than the HPAT.

Who don't you believe the HPAT is a useful addition to the determination of medicine admissions?
Medicine is such a broad field, so how can you measure suitability based on the LC? That's an exam where in some cases people can get into medicine with as little as one science subject out of six or seven. I think it should be based mainly on the LC, as that shows hard work and dedication. But the LC favours people who can afford grinds, repeat students, girls (they consistently outperform boys on the LC but not on aptitude or intelligent tests) and so on. We do need something else to allow for these factors.

Interviews open up a world of problems to do with nepotism and the like. Ireland is too small a country and there aren't many med schools here, it's wide open to abuse.
Plus, how can you decide someone is suitable for medicine based on an interview any better than other methods?

whadabouchasir

HQvhs wrote: »

My point isn't that we couldn't do it, it's that if we did it probably wouldn't be better than the HPAT.

Who don't you believe the HPAT is a useful addition to the determination of medicine admissions?

I think that it would be better.As I've already said The Hpat was basically just bought from australia and used here without even the slightest alteration being made to allow for social,cultural and educational differences between the two countries.Also the fact that it's only 2.5 hours is ridiculous.I could spend longer playing the xbox.the GAMSAT is much longer and asseses scientific knowledge too.An interview is part of the graduate application process too.i think that it would be very helpful if conducted by say english interview specialists,doctors or psychologists.you can learn a lot about a person from even a 10 minute interview.It's not that i think the LC alone is better than a combination of the both,but i don't think that the Hpat has done much other than decrease the amount of repeat students and girls who got in,i really don't think that we will end up with better doctors as a result.

clartharlear

theowen wrote: »

Perhaps interviews are the next step.

Ireland is so small a country that 'pull' would be too great a factor in interviews.

HQvhs wrote: »

girls (they consistently outperform boys on the LC but not on aptitude or intelligent tests)

Someone who consistently outperforms someone else of equal or greater intelligence shows a remarkable work ethic, which should be highly welcomed in medicine. I'm spitting angry about this positive discrimination in favour of boys. The world hasn't turned far enough to be needed to push it back again.

whadabouchasir wrote: »

i don't think that the Hpat has done much other than decrease the amount of repeat students and girls who got in,i really don't think that we will end up with better doctors as a result.

I agree with you on the impact of the hpat so far. It remains to be seen whether there will be any difference in the quality of the doctors produced. I'd be interested in seeing some longitudinal med school exam stats there alright. However, as I said, I think it's crazy to discriminate against girls just because they study harder, and I also think that (while repeating the leaving does suck) being a year older starting university is no harm at all. I know seventeen year olds who are bursting with brains and enthusiasm yet who are just not ready for the college experience. Enforcing transition year is another topic though...

tracker-man

clartharlear wrote: »

However, as I said, I think it's crazy to discriminate against girls just because they study harder

You are naive to think that girls perform better in the LC "just because they study harder". They score better for a number of varying reasons, social, cultural and psychological.
There is no reason to directly suggest that girls study harder.
Did you know that studies show boys out perform girls in third level education?

I just had to take you up no that point!

My opinion of the hpat itself is... It is a step in the right direction to ensure those entering the medical profession are the right people and best people for the job. But, alone the hpat is useless. I think the same system as the uk should be adopted. Their combination of an interview, an aptitude test and school results (both junior cert and leaving cert) is the best way of deciding if a person is suited to a career in medicine. This system is a great way of knowing the character of the individual and it is easy to differentiate
Those who really want and are suited to medicine from those who select it just because they can get it. I know because i've gone through the application process myself.

HQvhs

clartharlear wrote: »

Someone who consistently outperforms someone else of equal or greater intelligence shows a remarkable work ethic, which should be highly welcomed in medicine. I'm spitting angry about this positive discrimination in favour of boys. The world hasn't turned far enough to be needed to push it back again.

As the previous poster said, girls don't outperform boys because they study harder. It's for a wide variety of reasons. One could say that since the LC favoured girls boys were being discriminated against with the use of the LC. The HPAT brings it back to equilibrium with roughly a 50:50 ratio of males to females being admitted to medicine now.

I agree with you on the impact of the hpat so far. It remains to be seen whether there will be any difference in the quality of the doctors produced. I'd be interested in seeing some longitudinal med school exam stats there alright. However, as I said, I think it's crazy to discriminate against girls just because they study harder, and I also think that (while repeating the leaving does suck) being a year older starting university is no harm at all. I know seventeen year olds who are bursting with brains and enthusiasm yet who are just not ready for the college experience. Enforcing transition year is another topic though...

It does indeed remain to be seen, and the effect of the HPAT won't be seen for decades realistically. So there's no use jumping the gun and declaring it a failure with no evidence. I'm sure the med schools themselves will start to get an idea after a few years by checking their own exam results.
Well, that's just opening up the whole argument of should we have a graduate-medicine only system as in the States..

m19

lizt wrote: »

Hey guys, just wanted to say prep courses are a complete waste of time and money. ACER have even admitted there's nothing you can learn from it and the medical times had a front page article supporting this statement a few weeks ago. All they do with you is time management - and you can figure that out from the info online anyway. I've done a HPAT (a slightly different one for entry into SLT up north) and I know from personal experience there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING you can learn for it. All you can do is be familiar with the layout of the paper and keep track of your timing.

Hope this helps!!

agree with that

clartharlear

tracker-man wrote: »

You are naive to think that girls perform better in the LC "just because they study harder". They score better for a number of varying reasons, social, cultural and psychological.

It's those varying reasons that you mention that cause the girls to study more.
I'll grant that by 'harder', I mean 'more appropriately, given the nature of written summative exams'.

Blackbetty68

the hpat is a lottery imo.. its not a true representation of the ability of the person. theres never going to be a 'fair' alternative for entry into medicine because there will always be someone unhappy with it

So...has anyone started preparing for the HPAT yet? How are you finding it?

I'm finding that I'm quite strong in Section 2, but weak in Section 3.

People who did the HPAT last year: were your strengths/weaknesses the same in your practice tests and the real deal?

Jessibelle

I just started looking at the papers today. I'm ok at section 1, needs a bit of work on any questions with stats, section 2 grand and section 3 would be my weak spot (stupid middle sequences ) Did anyone else find they had loads of time over in section 2 though?

Jessibelle

Jessibelle wrote: »

I just started looking at the papers today. I'm ok at section 1, needs a bit of work on any questions with stats, section 2 grand and section 3 would be my weak spot (stupid middle sequences ) Did anyone else find they had loads of time over in section 2 though?

Ugh middle of sequences are horrid! Yeah I've loads of time left after Section 2. Those qs seem to come to me naturally, but I've a friend who's the opposite of me, being weak at section 2 and strong at section 3.

Jessibelle

Section 2's the empathy part so what I was told is if you're weak in it, to read novels of any sort then half way through say when a character is doing something, to stop and try and guess what they do next, then check in the book.
Section 3 I was told that Suduku (sp?) helps develop the type of sequential logic thinking you need.
Section 1 I was told I'm on my own

Jessibelle

Actually has anyone done one of the prep courses? If so, was it of any use??

Jessibelle

Jessibelle wrote: »

Section 2's the empathy part so what I was told is if you're weak in it, to read novels of any sort then half way through say when a character is doing something, to stop and try and guess what they do next, then check in the book.
Section 3 I was told that Suduku (sp?) helps develop the type of sequential logic thinking you need.
Section 1 I was told I'm on my own

Ooh I love sudoku! I better get playing it more often so now that I have an excuse to :P

clartharlear

Jessibelle wrote: »

Section 1 I was told I'm on my own

Read scientific journals and imagine what sort of questions could be asked based on the text. Conclusions, assumptions, weaken/strengthen arguments etc. Do logic puzzles. Study stats and probability in maths.

Jessibelle wrote: »

Actually has anyone done one of the prep courses? If so, was it of any use??

I did the **** one. It was two days of patronising rubbish.

Anthony16

clartharlear wrote: »

Read scientific journals and imagine what sort of questions could be asked based on the text. Conclusions, assumptions, weaken/strengthen arguments etc. Do logic puzzles. Study stats and probability in maths.



I did the **** one. It was two days of patronising rubbish.

Really?I know someone who did it and said the same.Apparently the guy doing it claimed all his relations were doing medicine because of med entry.Is that true?:pac:

ch252

Anthony16 wrote: »

Really?I know someone who did it and said the same.Apparently the guy doing it claimed all his relations were doing medicine because of med entry.Is that true?:pac:

I know a lad who said that to me too before I did it, but it really is a load of sh** I thought. All I gained from it was timing, which tbh you can teach yourself by doing the practise one under examination conditions. SOme people swear by it though, thats just my two cents.

cweeva

where can I get sample material from does anyone know?
I have the sample booklet from hpat, and the ones from umat, but is there anymore tests i could get??

clartharlear

Anthony16 wrote: »

Really?I know someone who did it and said the same.Apparently the guy doing it claimed all his relations were doing medicine because of med entry.Is that true?:pac:

His credentials, which he told us about at the start, included that his wife was a GP and he worked nearby the people who actually make out the UMAT... He seemed to have a dozen children and they ALL got 100th percentile in the UMAT thanks to his coaching. :rolleyes:

On the other hand, the practice tests etc on the **** website might be worth the money if you had several months to devote to the hpat.

I didn't buy the HPAT booklet because I have a copy from someone who did it last year (and it's bloody expensive!). Except I don't have an answer sheet for it, and I'd like a copy of that so I can practice the filling in the circles thing. Is it ok for me to ask if anyone has a scan of that?