Besiktas JK vs. Manchester United [Tues]

flahavaj

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Another dreadfully boring away performance in Europe by United.
Par for the course,they havent had a decent attacking away performance in Europe for years.
Ferguson is so afraid of losing that he sets up his team too defensively .
I hate to say it but United away from home in Europe are painful to watch.

So what? It works, hence their being in the last two finals. Would you prefer gung ho performances that got less decent results?

Pro. F

Tom65 wrote: »

Arsenal at the Emirates in last year's semi-final?

We got in front early in that game, that changes everything.

United have definitely been a very defensive team in Europe for the last few years, which i find fùckin annoying tbh. It's partly strategy and partly the players available (weak central midfield) imo.

NaiveMelodies

Pro. F wrote: »

We got in front early in that game, that changes everything.

United have definitely been a very defensive team in Europe for the last few years, which i find fùckin annoying tbh. It's partly strategy and partly the players available (weak central midfield) imo.

I find it brilliant, being in two finals in two years to be honest, far from annoying!

Pro. F

flahavaj wrote: »

So what? It works, hence their being in the last two finals. Would you prefer gung ho performances that got less decent results?

Playing more attractive football works just as well, if not better. And it's not as if you have to play defensive or all out attacking gung ho, there is a good middle ground.

ScholesyIsGod

Pro. F wrote: »

We got in front early in that game, that changes everything.

United have definitely been a very defensive team in Europe for the last few years, which i find fùckin annoying tbh. It's partly strategy and partly the players available (weak central midfield) imo.

That style took us to a record 25 game unbeaten run and 2 finals which has already been mentioned, you're not easily pleased.

flahavaj

Pro. F wrote: »

Playing more attractive football works just as well, if not better. And it's not as if you have to play defensive or all out attacking gung ho, there is a good middle ground.

If it ain't broke don't fix it. Fergies struggled for a long time to find a successful formula in Europe. Now hes found one that has a proven track record of working and people still aren't happy just because it doesn't "entertain" them enough? And we wonder why people give out about United fans.:mad:

Pro. F

flahavaj wrote: »

If it ain't broke don't fix it. Fergies struggled for a long time to find a successful formula in Europe. Now hes found one that has a proven track record of working and people still aren't happy just because it doesn't "entertain" them enough? And we wonder why people give out about United fans.:mad:

I don't agree with you that there is such a clear link between Ferguson's current defensiveness and our recent success in Europe. Our success also coincided with having the best defense in the world (in terms of quality and depth) and the best player in the world. When you consider that it's quite common for us to get to the quarters of the CL then two finals in a row isn't so unusual. And we were playing defensively in Europe for a good few years before the recent success anyway.

On the point of whether we should expect that United play attacking football or not - it's a fundamental tradition of the club. It was espoused by Busby. It is constantly stated by Ferguson that it is an essential part of United. Solskjaer recently talked about how important it is to our traditions. I don't see what's wrong with wanting to respect the traditions of my club and asking that we actually play by the values that we constantly hear about.

carlop

Pro. F wrote: »

We got in front early in that game, that changes everything.

United have definitely been a very defensive team in Europe for the last few years, which i find fùckin annoying tbh. It's partly strategy and partly the players available (weak central midfield) imo.

Obviously it can be frustrating, but it has worked. It's worth noting that the times Ferguson has adopted a gung-ho attitude in Europe it has often backfired. Think back to when we tried to outplay Milan in 2007, or even to an extent the final last year. We were taught a footballing lesson on both occasions.

For every 7-1 versus Roma, there has been a 3-0 defeat in the San Siro

Boggles

I can see it from both points of view, Fergies tactics especially away in europe are infuriating at times.

It is vital not to lose your first CL group game though, so you can see why Fergie set out his stall.

I have no doubt though if we started with Berbs Owen/Rooney up front last night we would have hockied them. Starting with one up front turns the match into midfield ping pong especially against a side that are hard working like the Turks.

The result is what counts and we won't remember the performance next month.

I did say if we won the 4 games against Arse - Spurs - Beskitas - City it will set us up nicely for the season, 3 down and 1 to go.

Job done last night, key players rested, massive game Sunday. Can't be too critical of Fergie in fairness.

anplaya

Headshot wrote: »

yes 3 points is great but mate that performance against a a very average bes side was disgrace

playing Rooney as a lone striker is beyond me

tactics?cant see berbatov or owen running around like rooney,making up ground in fairness.

Mitch Connor

anplaya wrote: »

tactics?cant see berbatov or owen running around like rooney,making up ground in fairness.

So? You could play Owen or Berbatov up top WITH Rooney (so he can still run around) which would give Rooney better support.

It shouldn't be necessary to 5 across the midfield every time we play away.

Nalz

Headshot wrote: »

playing Rooney as a lone striker is beyond me

10 men versus Spurs he did more than a good job, not ideal I know but maybe that played on the managements thoughts

LuckyLloyd

Great result last night. The performance is irrelevant in so far as Utd never really looked like losing and would win the game a fair bit more than half the time. Effective, nothing else matters.

ntlbell

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The negativity on this thread has me baffled. Disgraceful performance? United went to one of the most hostile atmospheres in Europe, didn't hit top gear and yet still came away with all 3 points, managing to rest several players along the way. I fail to see the disgrace in that.

Seriously why do people take newspapers nonsense and use it in the day to day life.

Do you think Manchester united really give a hoot about "hostile" environments? are those fans on the pitch? did they cause so many united players not to pass? to move slower? to give putting terrible crosses? did they pick the formation? did they cause players to keep launching the ball up to rooney and leave him isolated?

Is this the same team in the same hostile environment that were slaughtered 8-0 by the pool?

a team that's won one game in a shockingly poor league in their last 5 games?

stop talking absolute sun/sky rubbish

Spud83

ntlbell wrote: »

a team that's won one game in a shockingly poor league in their last 5 games?

I thought Liverpool lost the game in Turkey, and the 8-0 was in Anfield.

ntlbell

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

I thought Liverpool lost the game in Turkey, and the 8-0 was in Anfield.

Fair enough.

They were still slaughtered 8-0 and shame on the pool!

Nalz

ntlbell wrote: »

Do you think Manchester united really give a hoot about "hostile" environments? are those fans on the pitch? did they cause so many united players not to pass? to move slower? to give putting terrible crosses?

Yea I think the atmostphere in the ground can effect players, and especially as lasers and objects were used throughout the game. Nani and Evans had complained about such things

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/m/man_utd/8258085.stm
The United players had to cope with a rogue Besiktas fan trying to upset their concentration by pointing a laser in their direction.

"It was in the first half, although thankfully the police did something about it," explained Ferguson.

"They managed to get the culprit, which is good because I noticed it particularly on Jonny Evans. It seemed to be on him all the time."

Besiktas had frustrated United for most of the game, and coach Mustafa Denizli said: "I am sad about the result. To concede so late after putting in so much effort is quite demoralising."

ntlbell

Trilla wrote: »

Yea I think the atmostphere in the ground can effect players, and especially as lasers and objects were used throughout the game. Nani and Evans had complained about such things

It shouldnt affect one of the best teams in Europe with the experience in that team it's absolute nonsense

world class players thrive on that or should.

lasers and objects....I've heard it all now

that should be lobbed in with the dodgey color jersey we had and couldn't see our own players :rolleyes:

ntlbell

Trilla wrote: »

"They managed to get the culprit, which is good because I noticed it particularly on Jonny Evans. It seemed to be on him all the time."

and yet evans was one of the few players who had a flawless performance :rolleyes:

ScholesyIsGod

Pro. F wrote: »

I don't agree with you that there is such a clear link between Ferguson's current defensiveness and our recent success in Europe. Our success also coincided with having the best defense in the world (in terms of quality and depth) and the best player in the world. When you consider that it's quite common for us to get to the quarters of the CL then two finals in a row isn't so unusual. And we were playing defensively in Europe for a good few years before the recent success anyway.

On the point of whether we should expect that United play attacking football or not - it's a fundamental tradition of the club. It was espoused by Busby. It is constantly stated by Ferguson that it is an essential part of United. Solskjaer recently talked about how important it is to our traditions. I don't see what's wrong with wanting to respect the traditions of my club and asking that we actually play by the values that we constantly hear about.

2008 was our first final in 9 years and it had been 31 years since we had been in one before that, so in the history of the club playing in the European Cup up until 2008 we had only ever been in two finals so to make two in a row in 2008 and 2009 was actually quite an unusual achievement.

Pro. F

ScholesyIsGod wrote: »

2008 was our first final in 9 years and it had been 31 years since we had been in one before that, so in the history of the club playing in the European Cup up until 2008 we had only ever been in two finals so to make two in a row in 2008 and 2009 was actually quite an unusual achievement.

The discussion was about our performance in the CL in the Ferguson era. I'm on my phone at the minute, when i'm at a computer later i'll root out the stats so we can argue about them.

I'm not saying that I'm certain that the defensive tactics haven't had a positive effect on our results, just that i'm not sure if the evidence is as clear, either way, as people are saying.

This is probably getting way too far off topic for this thread. When i get the stats i'll post them on the United thread.

ScholesyIsGod

Stats or no stats the fact is that the system we are using at the moment is providing results and has been very successful there is no arguing with that.

Nalz

ntlbell wrote: »

world class players thrive on that or should.

Oh I agree with you there, but it can make the task tougher. Especially when lasers were reported to be used. I know ye bla bla lasers you've heard it all now, but it can effect the players. Yes Evans had a great game, probably the most solid out of all the 11 on the night, but at the end of the day, world class or not (half that United team aren't btw) players are human and hostile environments can get to a few. I've no doubt about that.

Pro. F

ScholesyIsGod wrote: »

Stats or no stats the fact is that the system we are using at the moment is providing results and has been very successful there is no arguing with that.

lol You've just used a stat to back up your argument!!

I didn't introduce the stats to this discussion - in fact i've argued at length about this previously and the most common argument i'm faced with is the stat that our results have been better since Fergie became defensive. I'm just going to check out these stats to see if they're actually valid.

anplaya

Mitch Connor wrote: »

So? You could play Owen or Berbatov up top WITH Rooney (so he can still run around) which would give Rooney better support.

It shouldn't be necessary to 5 across the midfield every time we play away.

tactics as i said. generally most teams when they play away from home are defensive.but i suppose ya know more than fergie?

Mitch Connor

anplaya wrote: »

tactics as i said. generally most teams when they play away from home are defensive.but i suppose ya know more than fergie?

Man, thats an annoying comment.

I was simply suggesting another way we could have gone.

I'm surprised you comment at all on United, given that you seem to think everything Fergie does is beyond reproach and should never be discussed unless it is to heap lavish praise on him and his decisions.

The Muppet

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Man, thats an annoying comment.

I was simply suggesting another way we could have gone.

I'm surprised you comment at all on United, given that you seem to think everything Fergie does is beyond reproach and should never be discussed unless it is to heap lavish praise on him and his decisions.

The object of the exercise was to win. United did that in a tough invironment , what's to criticise?

anplaya

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Man, thats an annoying comment.

I was simply suggesting another way we could have gone.

I'm surprised you comment at all on United, given that you seem to think everything Fergie does is beyond reproach and should never be discussed unless it is to heap lavish praise on him and his decisions.

since when i have i said i think everything fergie does is beyond repoach?
puttin words into my mouth ive never said.ive criticise decisions hes made in the past but that was a very good decision he made last night in a potential tricky situation,if it works why change it?

as someone else pointed out it got the result.i bet when they play at home hell go back to the two up front.its a marathon not a sprint,3 points in the bag,tricky one out of the way.

curry-muff

The Muppet wrote: »

The object of the exercise was to win. United did that in a tough invironment , what's to criticise?

TV3, lets criticise them, their commentary and punditry was woeful :pac:

Mitch Connor

anplaya wrote: »

since when i have i said i think everything fergie does is beyond repoach?
puttin words into my mouth ive never said.ive criticise decisions hes made in the past but that was a very good decision he made last night in a potential tricky situation,if it works why change it?

as someone else pointed out it got the result.i bet when they play at home hell go back to the two up front.its a marathon not a sprint,3 points in the bag,tricky one out of the way.

I said we could have gone 442, giving Rooney better support. You dismissed the suggestion out of hand and finished up with snide "suppose ya know better than Fergie?" comment - which indicates to me that you believe suggesting different approaches to the one Fergie took is a stupid thing to even contemplate doing.

ntlbell

The Muppet wrote: »

The object of the exercise was to win. United did that in a tough invironment , what's to criticise?

You can't be serious?

I very very rarley EVER criticize united's performances so it takes a REALLY bad one for me to make any sort of negative comments.

Last night's performance was shocking.

Yes it's a win 3 points woopy doo. I'm not talking about united having to put on an epic entertaining performance every single game, I'm talking about the basics here the bare bones and there was nothing last night nothing.

Rooney up on his own doesn't work there's posters here stating "just look at the results on CL" yes look at them a ton of draws and most of the time rooney wasn't up there on his own.

if you want to rest players for a big game then get them on early kill it off and get them off.

we had this last year in the prem.

throwing on a heap of forwards to try and rescue a game when he could have just killed it off from the start.

no one is doubting alex's record christ, it's simple that the formation last night didn't suit us, we're not sure what to do, we're used to playing fast free flowing football sharp passing and getting to the strikers early.

when we play 5 in midfield or a diamond or whatever you want to call it we just knock it about and do it too slowly we're unsure of how to get it to the lone striker quickly and affectivley without lumping the ball up there and leaving the striker isolated.

the fact we got out of jail last night and got a winner doesn't suddenyl excuse everything else.

Mitch Connor

The Muppet wrote: »

The object of the exercise was to win. United did that in a tough invironment , what's to criticise?

I was talking in general - the 'suppose ya know better than Fergie' comment really annoyed me - as if anything he does shouldn't be discussed apart from to say he was 100% spot on.

Yeah, we won last night, maybe it would have been easier if Rooney had some support and wasn't surrounded by defenders everytime Nani or Valencia went to put a ball in.

Maybe we would have lost if we only played 4 in midfield. MAYBE. MAYBE it is something we should be able to discuss without someone making snide dismissive comments.

anplaya

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I said we could have gone 442, giving Rooney better support. You dismissed the suggestion out of hand and finished up with snide "suppose ya know better than Fergie?" comment - which indicates to me that you believe suggesting different approaches to the one Fergie took is a stupid thing to even contemplate doing.

ah dont take it personally.
what if he had gone 442 and it didnt work out?

edit,just read your above post.

Mr Alan

Utd have been able to play 4-5-1 in the champions league the last few years because they have had Ronaldo in their side. Personally i dont think they'll do too well in the competition this year if they keep trying to play that system.

The Muppet

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I was talking in general - the 'suppose ya know better than Fergie' comment really annoyed me - as if anything he does shouldn't be discussed apart from to say he was 100% spot on.

Yeah, we won last night, maybe it would have been easier if Rooney had some support and wasn't surrounded by defenders everytime Nani or Valencia went to put a ball in.

Maybe we would have lost if we only played 4 in midfield. MAYBE. MAYBE it is something we should be able to discuss without someone making snide dismissive comments.

NP. I just think the tiem to critise is when the tactics don't work.

This is not directed at you personally but some United fans(usually the younger ones) appear to think that United should play every team of the pitch and make unfair criticisms if that doesn't happen.

SAF deservers to be criticised when he makes a gaff , I honestly don't think that applies to last nights game.

fortuneg

The Muppet wrote: »

SAF deservers to be criticised when he makes a gaff , I honestly don't think that applies to last nights game.

If we hadn't been EXTREMELY lucky & had Nani's shot ricochet off the keeper & right out to Scholes we'd be in just that situation.

I think now is exactly the time for Fergie to look at replays of last night's performance & realise the teams passing was far too slow, their movement was almost non-existant and Rooney should not be played up front on his own.
And if he does insist on using this 4-5-1 system then for gods sake encourage the bloody midfielders to get into the box & onto the end of Valencia's crosses because we're not going to have a whole lot of joy with just a 5'10 Rooney in the box surrounded by the oppositions back 4 & midfield.

It was a terrible performance!

Nalz

Mr Alan wrote: »

Utd have been able to play 4-5-1 in the champions league the last few years because they have had Ronaldo in their side. Personally i dont think they'll do too well in the competition this year if they keep trying to play that system.

Yeah gotta agree with this, unless Valencia comes to be the player Fergie hopes and Nani gets some consistancy. Both are doubtful. Bundle of talent in both, just lacking consistancy and urgency.

RasTa

ntlbell wrote: »

the fact we got out of jail last night and got a winner doesn't suddenyl excuse everything else.

Jail? Besikats never looked like scoring. We just never got out of 2nd gear.