civil partnership bill 2009

ferret man

what re your views on this and what is it about etc need as much info as possible on it

Goodshape

Try searching the forums here. There has been quite a bit of discussion on this topic, and issues surrounding it, already.

cotwold

ferret man wrote: »

what re your views on this and what is it about etc need as much info as possible on it

Try reading it, http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/General_Scheme_of_Civil_Partnership_Bill

shoegirl

Most people agree it doesn't go far enough.

In the absence of a more single and unmarried/gay couple friendly set of legislation on adoption, it doesn't adress family legal issues couples would have (though I consistently argue this is a seperate issue that shouldn't be just lumped in with gay marriage). And lastly, because it is is "seperate" it makes a "special case" for us which is inherently discriminatory as the implication is "one law for them, one for us".

The debate internally in the gay community is on whether it is better to see this legislation through and then continue lobbying for more, or if it would be better to outright reject it in the hope that something better would come along.

The history in most countries which now have gay marriage, with the exception of a few US states, is that generally civil partnership existed well before the marriage laws came in, generally on a regional basis and not always heavily publicised (Spain being an example of this).

Annasopra

ferret man wrote: »

what re your views on this and what is it about etc need as much info as possible on it

Here's a brief overview

http://www.glen.ie/civil_partnership/GLEN_Overview.pdf

A detailed analysis

http://www.glen.ie/civil_partnership/Civil_Partnership.pdf

and meetings

GLEN is organising information events on the Civil Partnership Bill in Dundalk (hosted by Outcomers), Dublin, Cork (hosted by Cork Gay Men’s Project and LinC) and Galway. The aim of these events is to inform people about what is in the Civil Partnership Bill and to discuss what it will mean practically for lesbian and gay couples. Dr Fergus Ryan, Head of DIT’s Law Department, will provide a detailed account of the Civil Partnership Bill.

The dates and venues for the information events are as follows:

Dundalk - 8.30 pm, Friday 25th September - hosted by Dundalk Outcomers, The Coach House, 8 Roden Place

Dublin - 8pm, Wednesday 7th October, Westbury Hotel, Grafton St

Cork - 7pm, Thursday 15th October - hosted by the Cork Gay Project and L.inC., 8 North Mall.

Galway - 7.30pm, Thursday 29th October - Menlo Park Hotel, Galway

We hope you will be able to join us at one of these events. For further information please contact GLEN 01 4730563info@glen.ie , Outcomers 042 9329816 bernardinequinn@gmail.com , Cork Gay Men's Project 021 4304884info@gayprojectcork.com . or L.inC 021 4808600 info@linc.ie

If you can't make it, you can download a copy of Fergus Ryan’s overview of the Civil Partnership Bill, a copy of his more detailed analysis and a copy of a chronology of key events leading up to the publication of the Bill at www.glen.ie

censuspro

Can you just turn up on the night or do you have to RSVP?

Also, any indication of when this bill will be passed into law?

cotwold

Well Mr Dermot Ahern has said the bill was going ahead like it or not to the gay community. He also said it would be in before the end of the year, but whos to say really.

theparish

civil marriage no prob, adoption prob

Boston

theparish wrote: »

civil marriage no prob, adoption prob

Agreed. If two priestd want to get married I've no problem with it, but priests can't be trusted to raise children.

cotwold

theparish wrote: »

adoption prob

About as erudite and intelligible an argument you'll get from people apposing gay adoption.

censuspro

Boston wrote: »

Agreed. If two priestd want to get married I've no problem with it, but priests can't be trusted to raise children.

Child abuse by members of the clergy and civil marriage and adoption rights are two completely seperate issues that have nothing to do with each other. Whats the connection between priests abusing children and a gay couple adopting children?

cotwold

censuspro wrote: »

Child abuse by members of the clergy and civil marriage and adoption rights are two completely seperate issues that have nothing to do with each other. Whats the connection between priests abusing children and a gay couple adopting children?

Its a joke ?!?!?! He's pointing out the irony of a poster who's screen name is 'theparish' (so presumably religious) saying that gay adoption is a problem when the administrators of his religion institutionally abused children and/or covered up such abuses. ie. its a little f*cking rich to say a gay people aren't suitable parents when the church you continue to support committed some of the most terrible abuses of children.

Boston

censuspro wrote: »

Child abuse by members of the clergy and civil marriage and adoption rights are two completely seperate issues that have nothing to do with each other. Whats the connection between priests abusing children and a gay couple adopting children?

cotwold wrote: »

Its a joke ?!?!?! He's pointing out the irony of a poster who's screen name is 'theparish' (so presumably religious) saying that gay adoption is a problem when the administrators of his religion institutionally abused children and/or covered up such abuses. ie. its a little f*cking rich to say a gay people aren't suitable parents when the church you continue to support committed some of the most terrible abuses of children.

Well there's that, and also this notion that children are better off being raised in the care of the state (Or traditionally the church) then being adopted by good people. When a child is raised with no one as the specific guardian of that child, terrible things often happen.

Annasopra

censuspro wrote: »

Can you just turn up on the night or do you have to Rsvp

Also, any indication of when this bill will be passed into law?

looks like it will be before end of year because it is in the revised programme for government and also there is a separate part of it that will be a finance bill ie part of the government budget on december 7th

philologos

cotwold wrote: »

Its a joke ?!?!?! He's pointing out the irony of a poster who's screen name is 'theparish' (so presumably religious) saying that gay adoption is a problem when the administrators of his religion institutionally abused children and/or covered up such abuses. ie. its a little f*cking rich to say a gay people aren't suitable parents when the church you continue to support committed some of the most terrible abuses of children.

Problem: The premise shouldn't be all people who have faith are Catholics, but some people who have faith are Catholics.

The Episcopal church structure (parishes) are used in many other churches. I.E Eastern Orthodoxy, Lutheran churches, and the Anglican Communion (Church of Ireland)

The Ryan Report has little or no relevance to this thread.

Perhaps if you would stick to the topic in a clear and calm manner instead of attacking a user based on their username it would be more constructive. People are going to believe in God whether you like it or not, we may as well not treat one another with scorn, but try to reason together.

Annasopra

Jakkass wrote: »

The Ryan Report has little or no relevance to this thread.

you mentioned it - no-one else

philologos

Johnnymcg wrote: »

you mentioned it - no-one else

cotswold wrote:

when the church you continue to support committed some of the most terrible abuses of children.

This is a clear reference to the acts described in the Ryan Report.

Even then, it's a highly unfair description considering that a minority of priests (around 5%) committed these abuses. Although a non-Catholic, I have a high respect for the people I know who are involved in the Catholic Church.

A more accurate description would be:

cotswold wrote:

when a minority of priests involved with the church you continue to support committed some of the most terrible abuses of children.

It's irrelevant. We should be arguing the merits of adoption / marriage without using logical fallacies. Present your case on the merits of that case rather than using an ad-hominem. It's called being fair.

Born Red 79

I'm catholic and all I want is the right to marry. I believe that God sent me the two loves of my life. My daughter and my girlfriend.

All I ask for, demand, is my right to be equal.

The_Minister

Renewed commitment in PfG.

Annasopra

The_Minister wrote: »

Renewed commitment in PfG.

We know that already

Tricity Bendix

Johnnymcg wrote: »

We know that already

That was unnecessarily harsh. I had no idea it was mentioned in the new PfG.

The_Minister

Tricity Bendix wrote: »

That was unnecessarily harsh. I had no idea it was mentioned in the new PfG.

The exact text is:

Civil Partnerships
This Government is committed to full equality for all in our society. Taking account of the options paper
prepared by the Colley Group and the pending Supreme Court case, we will legislate for Civil Partnerships at
the earliest possible date in the lifetime of the Government.

Which is a fairly strong promise.

Annasopra

Tricity Bendix wrote: »

That was unnecessarily harsh. I had no idea it was mentioned in the new PfG.

Ok fair enough - but I did already mention it in this thread

censuspro

Any update on when this bill is passed into law does anyone know?

Annasopra

censuspro wrote: »

Any update on when this bill is passed into law does anyone know?

It has now at stage 3 of 5 stages in the legislative process so my guess (and it is just a guess) is that it will be early next year before the law is enacted

Annasopra

The next stage is on March 24th (according to Ciaran Cuffe on Twitter)

http://twitter.com/CiaranCuffe/status/9972249363

LGBT Noise and Marriage Equality have sent out facebook updates as follows

Hi everyone,

The Civil Partnership Bill is currently making its way through the many stages and committees of the Oireachtas. Noise have been informed that the Justice Committee have been inundated with letters from ultra-conservative letter writers expressing opposition to gay people being granted any form of rights. Many conservatives are describing Civil Partnership as being the same as marriage; this is far from true. It lacks a great deal of the rights, responsibilities and protections of marriage. Crucially, it ignores the rights of children being raised in LGBT families and says that LGBT people do not even have families.

The Civil Partnership Bill forces couples to participate in their own discrimination and officially makes LGBT people second-class citizens.

In a week when a staunchly Catholic nation, Mexico, granted marriage equality and parental rights to its gay citizens, Ireland is, incredibly, still debating the withholding of rights to its citizens based on sexual identity.

Noise urges you to write to the clerk of the Justice Committee, Mr Alan Guidon alan.guidon@oireachtas.ie before Thursday the 24th of March, expressing your views on Civil Partnership and why it doesn't go far enough. Tell them we demand equality!

Love and noise,
The Noise Team

Dear Friends

The Joint Committee on Justice Equality Defence and Women’s Rights are taking written submissions on the Civil Partnership Bill. They are meeting later on this month to discuss it. You don't have to be a policy expert to write a letter to them. We have written to them today setting out the shortfalls of the Bill and calling once again for the Bill to be upgraded to give same sex couples the option to marry.

You can write to them at:
Mr Alan Guidon
Clerk to the Committee
Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women’s Rights
Leinster House,
Kildare Street,
Dublin 2

Annasopra

For anyone who is interested the next stage is on this wednesday morning March 24th from 10am and you can watch it live

http://www.oireachtas.ie/ViewDoc.asp?fn=/documents/livewebcast/Web-Live.htm&CatID=83&m=o

It takes place in committee room 3

rolly1

Hello All,

what do ye all reckon of the redress element of the bill?

You know the bit where you and your ex are shackled with very similar legal problems as those of a failed marriage automatically after three years of cohabitation(even though neither of ye would have signed up to it like)? as in either party can chase the other through the courts for maintenance, property, pension rights etc(Section 170,171 on cohabitation)

Annasopra

rolly1 wrote: »

Hello All,

what do ye all reckon of the redress element of the bill?

You know the bit where you and your ex are shackled with very similar legal problems as those of a failed marriage automatically after three years of cohabitation(even though neither of ye would have signed up to it like)? as in either party can chase the other through the courts for maintenance, property, pension rights etc (Section 170,171 on cohabitation)

You can opt out if the redress scheme

rolly1

Yeah you can opt out before the 3 year clock starts ticking, by seeking legal advice and drawing up a cohabitants agreement, how rosemantic! dahling lets cement our loving bond by drawing up the equivalent of a pre-nup! I would say very few people would really wanna get all legal with their loved ones in the early days of shacking up, wouldn't you?

It's a thundering disgrace in this vile kleptocracy that we cannot do as most normal democracies in europe do, be all growed up like and actually have an OPT IN system!

But of course it really suits the compo culture mentality of this ****hole and of course rolls the biggest legal gravy train *evah* into the station..which of course is the whole point of an opt out system..

Annasopra

rolly1 wrote: »

It's a thundering disgrace in this vile kleptocracy that we cannot do as most normal democracies in europe do, be all growed up like and actually have an OPT IN system!

Most normal democracies in Europe? - which countries?