ei.sdraob, a question...

hatrickpatrick

If the Irish government brought in some hideous new law, for example maybe that swearing in public would earn you a 5 year jail term (it's random, just think of any law you would unbelievably disapprove of). Would you leave the country or stay behind to try and change the law or change the government?

Because your answer to every single problem people have with the EU is "leave the EU". In a democratic system, the first option should actually be to try and change what it is people have a problem with, not just leave the organization at the first sign of trouble...

prinz

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Because your answer to every single problem people have with the EU is "leave the EU". ...

Any chance you could provide links to show this?

ei.sdraob

a question for me im honored so

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If the Irish government brought in some hideous new law, for example maybe that swearing in public would earn you a 5 year jail term (it's random, just think of any law you would unbelievably disapprove of). Would you leave the country or stay behind to try and change the law or change the government?

Because your answer to every single problem people have with the EU is "leave the EU". In a democratic system, the first option should actually be to try and change what it is people have a problem with, not just leave the organization at the first sign of trouble...

what is a law brought in by our government have to do with EU?


as for leaving the EU i reminded some posters several times that if they want Ireland to leave the EU then Lisbon would make it easier, hence it might be in their best interests

some far right eurosceptics are all for leaving the EU or dismantling it, for example UKIP who are no campaigning for the NO side

hope I make it clear?

hatrickpatrick

ei.sdraob wrote: »

a question for me im honored so





what is a law brought in by our government have to do with EU?

It's an analogy. Every time someone has a problem with the EU you say "Lisbon will allow us to leave" or something like that, so I'm assuming if it was our national government which was bringing in laws you didn't like, you'd advocate leaving the country - just like you advocate leaving the EU whenever people complain about things the EU does?

ei.sdraob

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's an analogy. Every time someone has a problem with the EU you say "Lisbon will allow us to leave" or something like that, so I'm assuming if it was our national government which was bringing in laws you didn't like, you'd advocate leaving the country - just like you advocate leaving the EU whenever people complain about things the EU does?

I see

no i would try to vote the government out, case in point the recent Blasphemy bill iirks me

why do i get a feeling you are setting up a strawman to burn me with reminds me of that terrible film with Nicolas Cage in it


a guestion for you now so:
* do you want to claim that we are all citizens of the EU?

prinz

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's an analogy. Every time someone has a problem with the EU you say "Lisbon will allow us to leave" or something like that, so I'm assuming if it was our national government which was bringing in laws you didn't like, you'd advocate leaving the country - just like you advocate leaving the EU whenever people complain about things the EU does?

You do realise that, I think I'm correct here, what ei.sdraord is alluding to is the fact that Lisbon facilitates member states leaving the EU in the future, something which to now is a rather complicated process... it's relevant when people are complaining that we are signing away our future, be forced into conscription etc etc etc. What a pointless thread. It's a direct response to all the nonsense being spewed forth from the NO side, that if we vote yes our country is doomed and forever tied to the EU.

hatrickpatrick

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I see

no i would try to vote the government out, case in point the recent Blasphemy bill iirks me

why do i get a feeling you are setting up a strawman to burn me with reminds me of that terrible film with Nicolas Cage in it


a guestion for you now so:
* do you want to claim that we are all citizens of the EU?

No, I am a citizen of Ireland and nowhere else (to my knowledge).
This isn't a strawman. I'll post examples of this later but take the most recent example, that guy from Sweden who was posting here. You said he should support Lisbon because it makes it easier for states to leave the EU. So once again you're saying if you don't like something the EU does, leave rather than try to change it. I'm just wondering if you apply the same theory to everything or is it just with the EU?

hatrickpatrick

prinz wrote: »

You do realise that, I think I'm correct here, what ei.sdraord is alluding to is the fact that Lisbon facilitates member states leaving the EU in the future, something which to now is a rather complicated process... it's relevant when people are complaining that we are signing away our future, be forced into conscription etc etc etc. What a pointless thread. It's a direct response to all the nonsense being spewed forth from the NO side, that if we vote yes our country is doomed and forever tied to the EU.

Not really. The posts I have seen when someone opposes Lisbon all say "you should vote yes, if you vote yes there's a proper way we can leave the EU." Now maybe I'm mistaken, but that to me suggests an attitude of "If you don't like what the EU is doing, leave." Which really undermines any claim that the EU is a democratic organization.

prinz

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Not really. The posts I have seen when someone opposes Lisbon all say "you should vote yes, if you vote yes there's a proper way we can leave the EU." Now maybe I'm mistaken, but that to me suggests an attitude of "If you don't like what the EU is doing, leave." Which really undermines any claim that the EU is a democratic organization.

Yes. You are mistaken.

ei.sdraob

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

No, I am a citizen of Ireland and nowhere else (to my knowledge).
This isn't a strawman. I'll post examples of this later but take the most recent example, that guy from Sweden who was posting here. You said he should support Lisbon because it makes it easier for states to leave the EU. So once again you're saying if you don't like something the EU does, leave rather than try to change it. I'm just wondering if you apply the same theory to everything or is it just with the EU?

the guy was clearly anti EU and/or displayed complete lack of knowledge of how it works (while telling us what to do)


now its no secret that some (TM) groups on the no side would like nothing better than for EU to fall apart or to leave it altogether

what baffles me is that they seem to ignore that voting YES would it make it easier for them to accomplish that task of leaving the Union if they ever come to power here sometime down the road (i sure hope not)

i also brought that up when a comparison was made with US sometime ago here, the biggest problem with US is that states cant secede the Union, and that annoys people there especially in states like Texas


so to summarise, some people want their countries to leave the EU for whatever reason, then it stands to reason that they should support the treaty as it would allow that task of exiting to be accomplished more easily

the No campaign consists of parties from the opposite sides of the political spectrum hence the use of the word "some"

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