Star Trek Insurrection/trek movies

nyarlothothep

Just watched this, its the only star trek movie I haven't seen. One thing I'll commend is the leisurely pace and scope for political themes which you wouldn't normally see in the more recent trek films. However for a film made with a slightly larger budget than FC it looks remarkably cheap and hokey, the sets in particular. Baku world is just some mountains and grass in America. So while they were going for a more subdued approach I don't think it worked following the blockbuster actioneering of FC, which for a low budget film, masked its cheapness well through pacing and good fx.

Insurrection though is closest to the spirit of TNG, while Nemesis has got better visuals and in a strange way is more watchable, it commits several crimes, like killing Data, introducing the Remans, the picard clone, everything about it essentially involves defiling all that is good about trek. So Insurrection is a passable but crap outing for the TNG crew, it feels like a really old film like the ones they would release year after year like tv episodes except on the silver screen.

What I think they could have done with this film is to expand the storyline and explore the issues raised on a more ambitious scale. This would mean that it wouldn't get stuck in a turgid mire of dullness as the action elements would be preserved. They had already done this with Star Trek 6 which was pretty decent, you have political ideas explored but on an epic scale with excellent character development. Here I feel that this is just another day at the office, the film feels incredibly small. I'd give it 5/10.

Of all the TNG films Generations and FC are the best imo. Generations for a low budget film had some gravitas with Malcolm Mac Dowell and the Shat in it and the fx was pretty good. The nexus isn't that bad an idea if you take a metaphysical interpretation of it rather than a strictly scientific one. The only thing I find totally senseless about it is the killing off of Picards family, why? Why?? Totally pointless.

Myrddin

Kind of agree. Insurrection , feels like it should have been an episode - maybe even a two parter, rather than an actual movie. There were some ridiculous things in it, Riker controlling a 600 meter starship with a Commodore 64 joystick for example.

I would rate Generations and First Contact as the best TNG films. And please dont raise the issue of killing Data, Im still trying to get to terms with that :mad:

Thankfully Data's core memory dump into B4 meant basically after a few weeks, B4 became Data. (at least in my trek loving world it did )

nyarlothothep

EnterNow wrote: »

Kind of agree. Insurrection , feels like it should have been an episode - maybe even a two parter, rather than an actual movie. There were some ridiculous things in it, Riker controlling a 600 meter starship with a Commodore 64 joystick for example.

I would rate Generations and First Contact as the best TNG films. And please dont raise the issue of killing Data, Im still trying to get to terms with that :mad:

Thankfully Data's core memory dump into B4 meant basically after a few weeks, B4 became Data. (at least in my trek loving world it did )

Thats how most fans would interpret the B4/data thing. Yes I absolutely hated the unmentionable. It would have been far more fitting if Data somehow ascended to a higher plane of existence and was re-united, somehow with his father in addition to becoming not just human but transhuman, it would be the completion of an epic story arc which was ruined in Nemesis for explosions.

I liked the commodore 64 joystick, it was like Frakes was directly taking the p1ss with his own movie, thats ok in a way to have a little in joke here and there.

Myrddin

Its just after watching the whole series of TNG, controlling the Enterprise with a joystick seems a complete piss-take out of this "state of the art" starship. Im glad you mentioned most fans thinking that about Data/B4 - it makes me feel more secure

Yeah I guess that trans-human thing for Data would have been an epic ending, and a much fitter ending. I think Data should have been recovered in the debris, even if it was only his head (kind of a Times Arrow throwback), and just at that time B4 suffered a neural failure. So after putting Data's head on B4's body, Data awakens to find he has access to a huge repository on information from Dr Soong. Remember the episode where Soong appears in Datas sub-conscious ramblings, telling him he is proud the he has made it this far, and how he is ready for the next step in his evolution, well instead of forcing those images with the help of Bashir and La Forge, Data can freely access all that and evolve to a higher state.

Ok ok I didnt explain it well, but Data did NOT deseve to be killed off.

nyarlothothep

EnterNow wrote: »

Its just after watching the whole series of TNG, controlling the Enterprise with a joystick seems a complete piss-take out of this "state of the art" starship. Im glad you mentioned most fans thinking that about Data/B4 - it makes me feel more secure

Yeah I guess that trans-human thing for Data would have been an epic ending, and a much fitter ending. I think Data should have been recovered in the debris, even if it was only his head (kind of a Times Arrow throwback), and just at that time B4 suffered a neural failure. So after putting Data's head on B4's body, Data awakens to find he has access to a huge repository on information from Dr Soong. Remember the episode where Soong appears in Datas sub-conscious ramblings, telling him he is proud the he has made it this far, and how he is ready for the next step in his evolution, well instead of forcing those images with the help of Bashir and La Forge, Data can freely access all that and evolve to a higher state.

Ok ok I didnt explain it well, but Data did NOT deseve to be killed off.

Yes the dream sequences were a pinnacle moment for tng, I especially liked the dove flying as the imagery was quite artistic for trek. It raised interesting questions about what an artificial subconscious might include and how it could be put together. That proposed ending for Nemesis would have been really good, unfortunately the writers had run out of imagination and were just authoring it mechanically. Real TNG ended for me with the conclusion of the trial in All Good Things. That was where we had classical Picard and the crew.

Myrddin

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Real TNG ended for me with the conclusion of the trial in All Good Things. That was where we had classical Picard and the crew.

Unfortunately, I tend to agree. 4 whole movies, and each one was a departure unto inteslf. Getting back ot, Insurrection had an "episodic" sense about it, probable because the story arc was quite small and contained. It brought absoloutley nothing, that an episode could not have brought. And to me, thats the point of a Star Trek movie, to bring the viewers something that an episode could not...

nyarlothothep

EnterNow wrote: »

Unfortunately, I tend to agree. 4 whole movies, and each one was a departure unto inteslf. Getting back ot, Insurrection had an "episodic" sense about it, probable because the story arc was quite small and contained. It brought absoloutley nothing, that an episode could not have brought. And to me, thats the point of a Star Trek movie, to bring the viewers something that an episode could not...

Thats basically why I liked Abrams film, it was a grandiose outing for star trek with a real budget, excellent fx and a superbly fast pace, I like slow paced films aswel if not more so but star trek needed a shot of wake up juice.

Myrddin

Looks like its just you and me Nylar Ive yet to see ST XI so I cant comment on the grandieur of it just yet. I still think the two best TOS era films cant be touched for sheer "biggness".

There's something about the movements of the ships done in ST2 thats really "movie" like. Same in ST6 when that big D7 swings 'round after restoring power.....ah the memories.

Slice

There wasn't enough "saving the galaxy" type movies for the TNG cast I felt. Insurrection was about some random planet that nobody had heard about before and Generations was about another random planet under threat from the nexus ...who really cares?

Myrddin

Slice wrote: »

There wasn't enough "saving the galaxy" type movies for the TNG cast I felt. Insurrection was about some random planet that nobody had heard about before and Generations was about another random planet under threat from the nexus ...who really cares?

First Contact being the only real exception. I personally think its a bad thing to have too many "save the planet" plots, it makes it unimaginative. Look at ST2, it was about revenge, nothing else, and yet for me, the best of the lot to date.

azezil

While I'll agree at time it felt like Insurrection could perhaps have been better suited to a feature lenght episode of TNG I also feel that of all the Trek movies it stayed closest to Gene Roddenberry's original vision for the show.

I really enjoyed it.

nyarlothothep

It was also the only film where Picard was himself and not uber action man Picard, who was totally at odds with his diplomatic thoughtful TNG incarnation.

Myrddin

azezil wrote: »

While I'll agree at time it felt like Insurrection could perhaps have been better suited to a feature lenght episode of TNG I also feel that of all the Trek movies it stayed closest to Gene Roddenberry's original vision for the show.

I really enjoyed it.

nyarlothothep wrote: »

It was also the only film where Picard was himself and not uber action man Picard, who was totally at odds with his diplomatic thoughtful TNG incarnation.

Both valid points. Could that mean that Roddenberry's vision of the future doesnt actually translate to the big screen all that well? Or was it simply that they made a hash of trying?

nyarlothothep

I think star trek 1 is closest to Rodenberry's vision but that the vision itself burdens the film. Some of R's ideas were for the 1960s and should stay there, this is the problem which beset TNG season 1. But the themes of exploration and ponderous philosophizing could be incorporated into a trek movie with the caveat that you would need a genius auteur director.